back to article Even more warship cuts floated for the Royal Navy

UK Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon has denied that vital British warships may be quietly sold to South American nations as part of the ongoing defence review, according to reports. Helicopter carrier HMS Ocean, already earmarked for sale to Brazil when she is withdrawn from the Royal Navy next year, may be joined by Type …

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 1966 and all that

      It main purpose for a big navy is nostalgia - so some old gentlemen can delude themselves into thinking that the UK is a significant player, rather than the support act for the US. It also allow them to stop thinking about the fact that Angela is the boss of Europe.

  1. x 7

    Always the Tories who cut defence.........

    Its always the Conservatives who cut defence expenditure.

    Remember what kicked off the Falklands war? John Knott and his plan to slash the number of frigates to "around 50"

    That was enough to invite the Argies to attack. Now we're down to around 17 and shrinking...

    Since then every Conservative government has hacked into our defence capability until now there's nothing left. The Russians are pissing themselves laughing at us

  2. lglethal Silver badge
    Facepalm

    WhatI'm picking up from this...

    So the UK will be able to bomb the sh&te out of whatever Country they end up going to war with, but wont actually be able to put any troops on the ground.

    Sounds about right. We can't have squaddies getting into danger and getting killed. It reflects badly on the politicians for getting involved in the war in the first place. Much safer and easier to just bomb the enemy back to the Stone Age. It might not actually DO anything, but it LOOKS like you're doing something. And well that's all the politicians really ask for after all...

  3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    The launch

    I name this rowing boat...

    1. Rich 11

      Re: The launch

      HMS Boaty McBoatFace?

  4. W4YBO

    Now I'm hungry...

    "...slashed all of the fat and large chunks of meat from within the MoD, the latest round of defence cuts is digging into the bone: hence the already drumskin-taut Royal Navy..."

    I like that turn-of-phrase, Gareth! Nicely done.

  5. Philip Stott

    Why do they never make the most obvious cuts?

    Last time I checked we had approximately 70K civil servants (or about one per enlisted person) to manage a budget of roughly £30 billion.

    The Israelis make do with about 400 civil servants to manage a budget of about £10 billion.

    It seems we have some 68K civil servants we could cut instead of kit.

    1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge

      It seems we have some 68K civil servants we could cut instead of kit.

      Because the majority of those civil servants are well paid, live out in suburbia, and more than likely to a man/woman vote tory.

      Plus if you sack them all, BAe wont have a ready pool of 'talent' to recruit from......

      Boris

      Old enough to remember the local tory in 1979 saying "Labour want to close the dockyard and sack all 6 000 workers.. the dockyard will only be safe with the tories in charge"

      1981

      Fuck off the lot of you

      1982.... erm those that have'nt left yet.. could you build up a taskforce for us on the double

      1983 thanks for everything... and heres your P45

  6. RealBigAl

    The current Defence Minister is a believer that Britain is an Aircraft Carrier

    The Conservatives don't believe in the carrier fleet at all. Within days of getting elected Cameron's government tried to cancel one of the vessels, but were so wrapped up in contracts they couldn't save any money. They've then ordered the wrong type of F35 for the carriers ending up with the UK having no useful carrier force until 2020 something, by which time there will be no escort craft left to protect them from subs.

    Historically, with the exception of Churchill who took over in the middle of a disastrous war as a unity PM the Tories have an appalling military record which usually involves defunding the military and starting wars the existing military can't cope with. That stretches all the way back to the 18th century.

    1. Roj Blake Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Re: The current Defence Minister is a believer that Britain is an Aircraft Carrier

      Britain being an aircraft carrier fits in well with its post-Brexit name of Airstrip One.

  7. ma1010
    Coat

    Look at the bright side

    The UK's energy problems are solved! Just go down to St. Paul's and locate Lord Admiral Nelson's tomb and hook up a generator because I'm sure he's spinning quite rapidly. In addition, Churchill and many others are also potential power sources.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Pirate

    Maybe Britain could sell the amphibious transports to Argentina?

    They seem to have some interest in amphibious operations, and I'm sure there is no possibility of an ironic/semi-tragic outcome if the sale goes through.

  9. dmacleo

    aren't the type-23 also able to do littoral/shallow water work where (now) most US ships can't?

    or am I way off base?

    1. Chairman of the Bored

      Type 23 shallow water?

      @dmacleo has a point; the 23s are pretty good platform for littoral work. Especially when the type 997 radars are fully deployed. I dont know much about the new modular anti-air missiles but what Ive read in the trade journals sounds encouraging. Eight Harpoons plus a 4.5in gun, helos, and perhaps some Royal Marines embarked makes for a pretty compelling package.

      Draft is about 7 meters and change, so these will not be doing any brown water work but the weapons and sensors have decent range.

      Type 23 is mainly an ASW platform intended to keep the N Atlantic commerce flowing. At this it is truly exceptional.

      The USN counterpart, LCS, is comparatively unarmed. And vastly, vastly more expensive. Unless you are fighting a girls' primary school LCS will probably need to be defended by DDG-51's, which are definitely not at home in the shallows...

      1. dmacleo

        Re: Type 23 shallow water?

        thanks and sorry I missed reply earlier. I really should look inti it more but time has been a premium.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm jealous

    I wish the US had to make similar cuts to its bloated military, then maybe we wouldn't get in so many conflicts all over the place!

    Hell, we recently (for those who live elsewhere and probably didn't hear) lost four servicemen in Niger. Even members of the armed services committees in the house & senate didn't know we had troops there, presumably acting in some sort of advisory role but no one seems willing to explain exactly what their mission was or how it went wrong.

    If that's not a sign our military is out of control, when those on a committee of the body responsible for oversight don't even know what the hell they're doing, I'm not sure what is!

    1. JCitizen
      Megaphone

      Re: I'm jealous

      I see nothing wrong with the current tactic of denying ISIS wannabes an easy takeover of just another poor nation. There are operations like this all over the world, and it is way smarter than just letting it happen, like Obama did with Syria.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Neoliberal governments are always more interested in making money for their backers than defending anything other than their profits. Hence no proper protection for the air craft carriers and servicing F35's in Turkey.....

  12. Stoneshop
    Coat

    "Even more warship cuts floated for the Royal Navy"

    Depending on how the cuts go relative to the watertight compartments, there may still be pieces that float but I wouldn't call them warships.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Money makes no sense

    You don't have to sell / scrap a ship just because you can't afford to operate it right now. Leave it in a harbour / dock for a couple of years until you can afford to reactivate it.

    As I understand it, the Marines will be deployed to the QE, but they could still do exercises from static ships at other times. How "active" does a ship have to be to unload some landing craft, and ride them to a beach somewhere?

    1. JCitizen
      Coat

      Re: Money makes no sense

      Not even mentioning that amphibious landings have practically been declared obsolete. It seems Marine doctrine now requires injection of forces using air assets. However, I doubt this ship will have any V-22 Ospreys on board, so some heavy lift helicopters would be nice.

      My coat is on the third hook, thank you very much!

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    QE ?

    I didn't realise we had a ship called "Quantitative Easing"!

  15. doug_bostrom

    "The root of the problem here is ..."

    trying to run the country on magical efficiency elves that are expected to substitute for any amount of money diverted to offshore tax dodging schemes.

  16. EnviableOne

    I've said it before

    and no doubt I'll say it again 1924 Washington Naval Treaty was when the British Empire started to fall apart. Allowing other navies (US) to match the RN and limiting the numbers so it was impossible to adequatley man three fleets (Home, Med and Far East.) this left inadequate cover to enforce rule and independances came thick and fast, dropping the net income, so the funds for ship building further.

    After WWII - it had neither the money nor the inclination to re-arm and what was left of the empire disolved

    with the empire disolving, so did the spending power of the government, and followed several strategic defence reviews '57, '66, '75,'81, '90, '94,'98 2003, '05, '10, '15 that have succesivley gutted the remaining resources. its a continuing trend.

    If the '81 review had been earlier, the two landing ships Fearless and Intrepid (recently replaced by Albion and Bulwark) along with our new Aircraft Carrier (Invincible) would all have been sold off and the falklands campaign would not have been possible.

    The escort frigates are getting on a bit now, the T-23s started in '89 and the T-26s have been delayed and decreased by successive reviews, now half of them replaced with th T-31. The T-23 were always ASW focused and worked alongside the T-21 GP frigates, that got retired and never replaced.

    The Type-45 was a patch job done on the attempted NFR-90/Horizon-Class, and as such is not without its problems. It was aready cut from an initial 12 to 8 then 6 ships

    the way things are going, by the time we get F-35 (wether they are Bs or Cs) the QE and PoW will have been sold off too.

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