back to article Microsoft faces Dutch crunch over Windows 10 private data slurp

Yet another European nation is turning up the heat on Microsoft for extracting heaps and heaps of telemetry and other intelligence from Windows 10 PCs. This time, it's privacy authorities in the Netherlands who are calling out Redmond for its hog-wild harvesting of data from machines that run Windows 10 Home and Pro. The Dutch …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This is only being discussed because brown envelopes are in transit,

    Just force MS to deliver a special "European edition" of Windows that doesn't collect anything by default, and if it does, that says precisely what happens (throw in cool runtime graphics for added "online cyberappeal" as needed, the young ones will be happy to click on the button "activate cool graphics as your data transits over the net").

    MS can hardly say no, after all it defends the position that European operations are not linked to US operations and that Uncle Sam cannot just demand data held on Irish servers.

    Will it happen. Well, you know.... it's complicated....

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If it's all above board

    At installation:

    Do you want sent user data to Microsoft? YES NO

    No means no.

    /End

  3. Kiwi
    Flame

    How about treating them like everyone else?

    If you, as an adult, assault or threaten someone, the courts don't say "Please don't do that in future, we'll work with you to come to terms you can agree on about how you should conduct yourself in society". Same for theft, burglary, bribery and all sorts of other crimes.

    If a private person defames or otherwise harms someone in a non-criminal manner (eg a sparky who accidentally screws up the job and sets fire to the kitchen) then again, courts will try them and make them pay.

    And of course there's a number of other non-criminal matters which people get fined for immediately, eg parking in a bad place or for to long, or driving a little faster than the limit (not "felony speed"

    but "$50 ticket speed").

    So why the hell do these big corporations, with teams of high-paid and we assume highly experienced lawyers who can explain such things to them - why do these companies get let off so lightly?

    MS knew what it was doing is illegal in several countries. They've known they're taking all sorts of things from people's personal documents to patients medical records (if your local GP uses Win8+, with the document "slurping" etc going on...) and all sorts of other personal records, including "typing history" etc. They went into this knowing full well it was illegal but they hoped that they'd get away with it.

    These countries (NZ included!) need to charge them from the date of first breach, charge them for every breach, and fine them like they'd fine an individual who was knowingly collecting and disseminating personal data they had no right to collect. Especially as it has been done through borderline dishonest means (misleading someone so they don't grasp what you mean and agree to what they think you're asking is dishonest and in many jurisdictions it is fraud).

    Same for any other company - if the going rate is a $50 fine per breach for an individual, then MS (and Google etc) need to be fined that much per breach. And if a person who doesn't pay $90,000 in fines gets 6 months in jail, then execs at those companies need to be getting jail time for not paying fines when they refuse.

    Lets seem some effective treatment of these companies, otherwise they'll just keep flaunting the law.

    </rant>

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How about treating them like everyone else?

      "They've known they're taking all sorts of things from people's personal documents to patients medical records (if your local GP uses Win8+, with the document "slurping" etc going on...) "

      The only way Microsoft would get a document is if an application crashed and you answered yes to the specific question at each crash that asks you if you want to forward the full content in question.

      "and all sorts of other personal records, including "typing history""

      Lol, Windows 10 doesn't store or forward your actual typing. It collects statistics like word use frequency and similar in real time. If you let it.

      1. Kiwi
        WTF?

        Re: How about treating them like everyone else?

        "and all sorts of other personal records, including "typing history""

        Lol, Windows 10 doesn't store or forward your actual typing. It collects statistics like word use frequency and similar in real time. If you let it.

        So you mean mickey$loth was, yet again, lying when they listed "typing history" as part of the data they collect?

        And what bloody use are stats like the frequency of words I use, especially without context (ie in order of use)? True real-time word use stats would show the order anyway, as it would show the count for "order" was updated momentarily before the count for "anyway". But what business is it of theirs what words I use and how often?

        The data MS colllects, from MS's own site :

        Web browsing and online searches

        Places you go (physical location)

        Data that helps us assist you, personally ("...needs to know what you’re interested in, what’s on your calendar, and who you might want to do things with.")

        Fitness and health

        Data that we use to show more interesting ads

        Places you go

        Data that helps us assist you, personally

        Sign-in and payment data

        Information from device sensors

        (https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-ca/)

        That lot alone is quite scary, and certainly a level of intrusion that is illegal in NZ and other jurisdictions, especially as it's on be default and doesn't give clear explanations during the installation

        And then there's :(excuse formatting)

        App usage Information about Windows and application usage such as:

        • OS component and app feature usage
        • User navigation and interaction with app and Windows features. This could potentially include user input, such as name of a new alarm set, user menu choices, or user favorites.
        • Time of and count of app/component launches, duration of use, session GUID, and process ID
        • App time in various states – running foreground or background, sleeping, or receiving active user interaction
        • User interaction method and duration – whether and length of time user used the keyboard, mouse, pen, touch, speech, or game controller
        • Cortana launch entry point/reason
        • Notification delivery requests and status
        • Apps used to edit images and videos
        • SMS, MMS, VCard, and broadcast message usage statistics on primary or secondary line
        • Incoming and Outgoing calls and Voicemail usage statistics on primary or secondary line
        • Emergency alerts are received or displayed statistics
        • Content searches within an app
        • Reading activity -- bookmarking used, print used, layout changed

        And if that's not going to far, how about (some removed for brevity) :

        App or product state Information about Windows and application state such as:

        • App launch state –- with deep-link such as Groove launched with an audio track to play, or share contract such as MMS launched to share a picture.
        • Personalization impressions delivered
        • Whether the user clicked or hovered on UI controls or hotspots
        • Caret location or position within documents and media files -- how much of a book has been read in a single session or how much of a song has been listened to.

        What business is it of theirs how much of a bloody book I read in a single sitting?

        More for the brave/sadistic at https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windows-diagnostic-data.

        Yes, while it does refer to docs being grabbed during a crash, there are several mechanisms where this would happen. Especially given the regularity with which windows/programs crash!

        How the hell do you live with yourself defending this stuff? [sounds of tongue being gnawed at as I try to keep a hold on what I really want to say!]

  4. MrKrotos

    "Authorities in Germany, Switzerland, and France have all at one time or another expressed concern over Windows 10's collection of data"

    Yes and what did they do? Thats right phukall!

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Apple slowly becoming similarly murky?

    Are Apple slowly becoming similarly murky?

    I think it was the last iTunes update, or it might have been the update to iOS 11, but suddenly iTunes refused to sync my iPad or iPod over WiFi for some reason, saying that they were locked with a passcode (although it had never previously complained that this prevented syncing). And iOS 11 also introduced new “off doesn’t quite mean off” switches for WiFi and Bluetooth as well.

    After a bit of web searching, it seemed that the recommended (only?) solution was to reset location and privacy settings, and have my devices re-recognise my computer.

    Sure enough, this worked, but it also enabled all kinds of location and analytics settings that I had previously double-checked were switched off.

    I have to say that this seems a little suspicious to me. Are Apple slowly weakening their commitment to privacy, one drip at a time, so that the frogs don’t notice that the water is gradually starting to boil?

  6. RedCardinal

    Meanwhile, the UK regulator is perfectly happy with Microsoft and it's Windows 10 info-hoover. Why are we not surprised...

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