back to article Microsoft hits new low: Threatens to axe classic Paint from Windows 10

Satya Nadella had us all fooled but good with his kinder, gentler, people-empowering Microsoft act. But now we can see the company's reverted to type by threatening to kill venerable graphics app Paint after the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update. A new list of “Features that are removed or deprecated in Windows 10 Fall Creators …

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Megaphone

Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely.

" It seems to have a randomly activating caps lock or shift key."

CAPITALIZATION and *PUNCTUATION* for! emphasis! [el reg does this a lot]

NOT a keyboard error.

^^ emphasize "not" when reading

and I _REFUSE_ to change.

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Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely.

@bombastic bob

Cheaper than what? Cheaper than a Chromebook? Cheaper than a Raspberry Pi?

The thing is that Microsoft’s tactics only work if there’s an advantage to the computer manufacturer playing along. In the past there was an almost unassailable advantage - favourable pricing on Windows. Currently there may well still be an advantage - but that advantage is dwindling. Which brings me to:

Time for some TRUST BUSTING and anti-MONOPOLY actions. You can't just have SOME vendors not playing Micro-shaft's game. It has to become ILLEGAL for them to do it at ALL.

I disagree - I don’t think that the law is necessary here (well, except for lawyers keen on earning another fat fee). I think that market forces will do this - the tide is turning.

It’s fashionable to hate Microsoft, just as it’s fashionable to hate Apple (Google, Facebook, Amazon - insert whipping boy of choice here). The truth is that they all have their advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I quite like Satya Nadella’s vision for Microsoft - I find it infinitely more preferable to the cock up that Ballmer was making of it. Especially now that Linux is being brought into the fold, and I can imagine the day when Windows is a shell on top of Linux. I even like Windows 10. But I’m not a huge fan of masses of bundled software - it leads to laziness and lowest common denominator applications. After all, why install a competitor to MS Paint - even a better one - if MS Paint is bundled? Similarly, I know people who use Notepad even though Notepad++ is infinitely better (and still free).

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Pick the one that you like best and then enjoy it. No need to get religious about it, or worry about what might or might not be wrong over the fence. These things all seem to sort themselves out over time.

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FAIL

Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely.

"It's the monpolistic "deals" that Micro-shaft makes in order to strong-arm the largest PC vendors into doing what they want, i.e. NOT selling anything without a Micro-shaft Win-10-nic license."

Your whole premise is wrong. At least Dell and HP sell some laptops with FreeDOS, and Dell also had (has?) Ubuntu preinstall option.

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Stop

Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely.

"and I _REFUSE_ to change."

How about you just take a day off and give the rest of us a break?

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TVU
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Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely.

"(or, if you must have something Windowsy, ReactOS)"

I think not since ReactOS is still on a par with Windows 10 itself in terms of stability. If you want something stable that gives you a Windows feeling and that also has a load of free apps, go with Linux Mint Mate with the Redmond theme.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely.

and I _REFUSE_ to change.

I'd recommend you grow a sense of humour, though.

You're lucky you're too easy a target for me - no challenge whatsoever (evil grin).

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely.

Personally, I quite like Satya Nadella’s vision for Microsoft - I find it infinitely more preferable to the cock up that Ballmer was making of it. Especially now that Linux is being brought into the fold, and I can imagine the day when Windows is a shell on top of Linux.

I'm afraid I'm not buying that one. I've "experienced" Microsoft from when it started to flog MS-DOS on 5¼" floppies, and over that time I have seen enough behaviour to prevent me extending ANY trust to their activities, also because I know from experience how static corporate culture is.

It will take a lot longer to convince me that this isn't yet another "extend, embrace, extinguish" process being played out (the very fact that they thought up that phrase gives you an idea of mindset).

I prefer to run Linux without Microsoft's "help" (and license fees), thanks.

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Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely.

"In fairness, I don’t think that Windows can be described as a monopoly any more, or Microsoft’s practices as monopolistic. You have a choice, in a way that there hasn’t been a choice since the halcyon days of the 1980s"

I made my choice. I wanted Windows 7, so I bought a Windows 7 laptop complete with paint and Photoshop.

Against my wishes and without consent MS have removed Windows 7 and, bit by bit, are removing the software packages I want to use, including the old version of Photoshop that I'm licenced for.

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Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely.

@Adam 52

I'm not saying that they always behave well, or do the right thing (although, in my experience, they can generally be trusted) - just that they aren't a monopoly any more.

As you say, you had a choice - and you made it. While it lasted, at least, I hope that it was the right one for you. Of course, you could have stuck with Windows 7 - and, presumably, a still working copy of Photoshop.

You could also have chosen to buy a Mac (with Photoshop) or Linux (with something else). So badly behaved, perhaps, but not a monopoly.

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WTF?

Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely. @me

"At least Dell and HP sell some laptops with FreeDOS, and Dell also had (has?) Ubuntu preinstall option."

4 thumbs down already, but no-one has the balls to tell why...

I was just stating a fact - you can buy a Dell or HP (and others) without the MS tax, so Mr Bombastic's 'NOT selling anything without a Micro-shaft Win-10-nic license' is obviously just FUD.

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Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely.

When Windows 10-S becomes the only supported version, you will have a talking point. But as long as it's just an option, and not even a default option at that, I don't really see the objection.

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Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely. @me

@Sandtitz

Here. Have an upvote from me. I wouldn't worry about all the down votes though (look at the reaction to my comments on this thread - very negative, and I can't understand why either (although, since there's no explanation either, I don't care too much))

I can think of some very good reasons to abandon Paint (and any other software extraneous to the OS), not least for reasons of security and developer time required to maintain the software. But I suspect that many of the commentards downvoting you are newbies or have only a passing familiarity with IT (although, doubtless, they'd claim great expertise). The Register used to attract Programmers, Sand Benders, Ops and Sys Admins. Now there also seem to be noobs and gamerz here for the lulz (whatever that means).

Like Viz, the Register just isn't as good as it used to be! Won't stop you coming though, will it? Me neither.

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Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely. @me

Let it go, 45RPM - these fora do seem to attract Mr/Miss/<insert your own title> Angry.

I got downvoted for pointing out that LIbreOffice now includes the option to have a ribbon bar.

I can only assume that, despite the fact I was simply pointing out an actual, factual, truth, that the ones who are still (ten years+) down the line foaming at the mouth of the temerity of MS to have added it with the release of Office 2007 - usually the same ones espousing the virtues of choice - hadn't noticed and will now have to turn that anger onto LibreOffice.

Me, personally, could see it actually helping the adoption of LibreOffice as I said earlier.

Anyway...let 'em vent and downvote mate. Life's too short.

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Re: Now just notepad, and we can write off builtin apps completely. @me

@TonyJ I have no problem with differing opinions. By and large I've always been pretty pro Microsoft, certainly pre Win 8. I use a Winphone and wouldn't want anything from Google or Apple. But your comment about Libre Office's option for a Ribbon is 180 degrees away from the point you try to make. i.e. Libre Office has an option. whereas the point that sets so many here's teeth gnashing ( ignoring for the moment the ones who have to be acknowledged never have anything good to say about MS on principle) is that removal of options. That MS makes a decision to deprecate, and worryingly may kill, a simple and useful tool - Paint. That it changes or removes practical functionality to replace it with stuff that no one much wants. That where a function, like the Start Menu is almost good enough it chooses to remove it, instead of improving it ( or at least leaving it alone) and when forced to replace it, chooses to make it more unwieldy and less user friendly than it was before. And it is a mess. Because programmes can install an entire folder in an alphabetic location but a casual user would have no idea how to move the item to where they want ot expect to find it - and even the expert user can't move, let alone hide or uninstall stuff that Microsoft wants to impose. As to that Ribbon. The point of contention for the Ribbon, like the Start Menu, is that it is cluttered and messy to navigate, but the functionality that allowed users to simplify it easily was taken away from something that isn't fundamentally all that different from what went before. The real difference now is that menu items can't be hidden individually. The nearest you can come to it would be to create manually, item by item, a copy of a given menu that contains just the bits you want ( a long and tedious process) and then hide the original one in its entirety. I am never ever going to use INSERT - Links -Cross Reference. Never. Not ever. Under any circumstances. But it can not be taken away. It has to be there, like so many other items I'll never use, that just add clutter.

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Initially surprised to see TCP Offload going

Until discovering that (almost) nobody ever actually implemented it.

Rather like OpenGL "Select" mode I guess. Nobody did it properly and it was completely broken in recent implementations.

Though I do seem to recall some talk about ASICs and FPGAs to do network stack DMA, which implies it may not be as dead as it looks.

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Re: Initially surprised to see TCP Offload going

Was mainly used with those overpriced "Network Accelerator, for maximum online gaming experience" -type cards. They did work as advertised, mind you.

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Anonymous Coward

What are they thinking?

Has Nadella never heard of Jim'll Paint It????

Seriously, I stopped caring about Microsoft and windows a long time ago now, they can carry on their express path into insignificance...

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You need a tool like ms paint so that you can take s screen shot when there's an error, and redact areas of the screen, before submitting bug reports.

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Holmes

Aha...

"You need a tool like ms paint so that you can take s screen shot when there's an error, and redact areas of the screen, before submitting bug reports."

Exactly....

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At Paul, re: Paint for screen dumps.

Thank you. I was just about to post this very concept but you beat me to it. Enjoy a pint.

While I'm blind & can't see the screen dump to edit it, I can hot key Copy&Paste the screen dump into Paint, Save As, give it a file name, & email the resulting file in less time than it would take to even LAUNCH something "better" (a more powerful graphics editing program).

Simple, fast, & easy to use. When all you need is the basics, it makes no fekkin sense to have to bring up something that's so overpowered it's like firing up the Ferrari to drive the three blocks to the corner market for a loaf of bread.

*Shaking head in disgust*

I'm glad I didn't bother to "upgrade" to Win10, I'd be bloody well pissed at all the functionality MS has removed in their headlong sprint to flush themselves down the bog.

*Golf clap*

Great job SatNad, you're the perfect leader to steer the Titanic.

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Re: At Paul, re: Paint for screen dumps.

Why are you using the snipping tool for screenshots?

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Re: Bug Reports?

Isn't that the stuff that goes straight into the recycler on Planet MS (aka the Redmond Enclave of Deluded Reality)

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Which in Windows 7 + you can do with the snipping tool

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Re: What are they thinking?

I *think* he said in an interview that he uses the XP version even on a later version of Windows so his glorious paintings will be safe.

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Re: What are they thinking?

It's one of the first programs used at my kid's school, but if MS get rid of it that means that people learn to look for alternatives at a young age, so it's probably a good thing.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: At Paul, re: Paint for screen dumps.

While I'm blind & can't see the screen dump to edit it, I can hot key Copy&Paste the screen dump into Paint, Save As, give it a file name, & email the resulting file in less time than it would take to even LAUNCH something "better" (a more powerful graphics editing program).

Crap, my apologies for overlooking your needs. You are going to need some hotkey screenshot utility now.

You would probably not have much use for the macOS screen dump keystroke either as I'm not sure there's a way to manually set the filename. It's generally "Screenshot(screen)" + date/time, with "screen" present if you have more than one monitor.

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Facepalm

Re: What are they thinking?

Thanks for the update.

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Re: What are they thinking?

Snipping tool sounds great. How do you blockout the email address the middle of the selection and put a red circle to highlight a further portion of the selection?

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Re: What are they thinking?

my comment was supposed to say "why ARENT you using the snipping tool...."

sorry..!

you can do blocks of colour and lines etc straight in the snipping tool.

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Re: What are they thinking?

although i might have a look at greenshot. looks good

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I guess I'll have to buy that other abused bloat app everyone lobbs at me: powerpoint.

Mental note: before drinking the koolaid, save all the gadgets especially snipping tool. I'm dead if that goes away. I need it for my powerpoints.

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"...Mental note: before drinking the koolaid, save all the gadgets especially snipping tool...

Get a hold of Greenshot for that. You won't look back.

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Anonymous Coward

How am I going to draw my rudimental penis pictures if they take away paint?

It's a sad day.

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Trollface

"How am I going to draw my rudimental penis pictures if they take away paint?"

simply send a selfie including the one on your forehead :D

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System Image Backup (SIB)

Actually, the System Image Backup (SIB) is what we should be panicking about - this simple programme, run monthly, has got me out of trouble more than once. If we remove it from "standard" (and no extra cost) windows how many people will never ever run a backup.

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Re: System Image Backup (SIB)

How many users don't run a backup already?

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Re: System Image Backup (SIB)

SIB is very simple and has gotten my parents out of a pickle. External drive and SIB is so easy to setup.

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Re: System Image Backup (SIB)

I agree that Windows should include a usable backup program (given that nearly everyone should to do backups, though most don't bother and some don't even know they need to until they're in trouble), but still, there has to be a point where "If they remove it from the base Windows installation, no one will x" ends, though. Windows isn't installed to only run the programs it came with. They can't include everything, and if the weak ones they DO include end up being the baseline, that's a pretty low standard. What if WordPad was the baseline for what we expect in a word processor?

That doesn't mean MS should delete them from the baseline install, just that it's not a good practice to depend on MS including stuff because unsavvy users won't ever install something important otherwise. Sometimes even if they are installed, it's still no good.

In my case, I tried the Windows 7 x64 system backup years ago, but it freaked out when it saw that I had a <2TB GPT volume. Four years after Windows first supported GPT formatting, it still couldn't handle my GPT disk.

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Go

Irfanview has a mini-paint substitute F12

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Too many features.

Cant fit under today big fat fingers!

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Trollface

Re: Too many features.

Get a bigger fondleslab then!

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MS Paint

That moment when you clicked Print Screen and immediately open / paste / save works wonder in MS Paint. It works across windows pre-installed with it's light weighted resource. Now Microsoft wants to completely remove it... sign.

Yes, Paint 3D does have a lot of special features. That's exactly why it also takes a lot more resources to load. Talk about using a crane to hammer a nail. Not to mention that 3D vectors are different from pixel art. Maybe Microsoft should try to write a report in Paint 3D and tell us how that felt.

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Re: MS Paint

"Maybe Microsoft should try to write a report in Paint 3D and tell us how that felt."

And if they say they LOVED it and wouldn't use anything else?

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Anonymous Coward

From the article:

Interestingly, Microsoft's also hanging the axe over its System Image Backup (SIB) Solution, advising that it's time to “use full-disk backup solutions from other vendors.”

I find this mystifying.

I'm a long time Windows user, but look on with some envy at Apple's Time Machine. Over there in FruityVille it seems trivially easy to back up a computer, restore an entire machine, etc. It all seems very well integrated, a standard part of the OS. Whereas on Windows it's always been, well to put it frankly, shit. And now it's looking like it will become non-existant. Non-existant shit is normally better than existant shit, especially when it's all over your laptop, but just occassionally some manure is required.

Rely on third party solutions? Doesn't that tell MS something about what they're doing wrong?!?!?!

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The thing to remember here is that EVERYTHING other than the core OS is an add-on in the eyes of MS and can be dropped at any time, this may be a result of the browser wars thing but more probably just the way the company split it out - 'you guys make the OS work and you other guys write the other bits' kind of thing . That includes backups, security, screen management etc whereas most other OS look beyond 'in a perfect world' to include some features for managing the device and recovery as part of the core. They don't have to be used but if you do they are fully integrated and...just work.

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Anonymous Coward

RE: Doesn't that tell MS something about what they're doing wrong?

It does. Very simply, they don't effing care about the users. They know that they have them all over a barrel and can be raped at will because there is far too much resistance to change in most businesses so Windows and all that goes with it are locked in and are ready for raping (financially).

Naturally, there will be pockets of resistance but these will soon be removed by the MS Stormtroopers.

I'm glad that I'm totally MS free these days. It was a great relief when my jod was sent to India and I retired leaving all that Windows mess behind me. Still I can't complain too loudly as I earned a living from that crap for the last 20 odd years of my working life.

Linux and MacOS are where it is at for me these days.

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Want a backup? Save to OneDrive. Only £x a month. Or to save even more money, Office 365 + OneDrive. Only £y a month.

The monetisation of Windows continues apace.

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Anonymous Coward

Over there in FruityVille it seems trivially easy to back up a computer, restore an entire machine, etc. It all seems very well integrated, a standard part of the OS

I wouldn't call it perfect but it does the job well, also because it gives users access to the time slices in a fairly easy to use way and - VERY important - it tolerates the backup target being absent, in which case it buffers the backups locally until it can see the target disk again and then unspools it cache. If you set up the wireless drive for it it will basically do all of that without the need for ANY user input. I'm just picky in that I like a secondary restore-from-the-bare-metal backup (leftover from my Windows days where I'd use Acronis True Home), so I run Carbon Copy Cloner every week, but in theory that is overkill. Even that is automated: I've set it up that it whinges at me if it can't find the backup disk and it starts the backup as soon as I plug it in.

I'd take one step back though, and observe that that free OS comes with enough facilities to make the hardware you just bought useful, straight out of the box, and I think Microsoft is at risk of losing that if they go on like this.

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Save a backup to the cloud?

If only!

My backup would be obsolete from being too old before it was even half way done uploading!

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Re; Kevin Johnston

This is a fundamental point. An OS should an operating system. i.e. contain the basic functionality to make a computer usable. This means the programmes that boot the machine and allow software to run and a few essential utilities that need to be universal, to ensure the availability of some basic functionality. Like a simple text editor, graphics editor/screen shot tool, file manager, a zip utility and arguably a minimum security system. We can argue about the precise requirements. But these elements need to be consistently available and reasonably simple. They are the things that make an operating system work. OTOH an OS should not be mandating the user's choice of working programmes. Microsoft seem to be trying to remove the former, while increasing trying to force the latter. Including adding in all kinds of crap that they want us to use and preventing us removing it. (Mixed reality portal anyone?) I'm guessing that they want to try to create a closed system that ties users in to their products.

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