back to article Fear and Brexit in Tech City: Digital 'elite' are having a nervous breakdown

As Brexit sends London's tech sector and Silicon Roundabout into post-traumatic shock, and protesters out onto the streets of London, inventor Andrew Fentem wonders "what sort of hippy free-for-all is this anyway?" While some sections of the British press celebrate the Brexit vote in the UK, in the technology press there has …

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        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: The current plan does not matter

          "No, it has to happen in 2 years AT MOST."

          Wrong. It has to happen in 2 years AT MOST from when Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is invoked. And that won't happen until AT LEAST October when a new PM is installed.

          FTFY

          1. James 51

            Re: The current plan does not matter

            In theory with the agreement of all 28 countries the deadline could be extended past two years. However it is difficult to see this happening in practice.

    1. Alan Brown Silver badge

      > The current "plan" seems to be to introduce some form of "points-based" system for controlling which furriners can work in the UK

      We already HAVE a point-based system for controlling which non-EU furriners can work here.

      This is not going to be extended to EU citizens, no matter how much wishful thinking Call me Dave and his mates are trying to push out. Such a move would automatically mean the end of any free trade agreement or negotiations involved.

    2. JLV

      Dumb question, but I confess I dunno UK specifics.

      Cameron has announced his future resignation, which in many countries would result in general elections, after a new party leader was chosen. But, if I understand correctly, you vote in a local MP from a party and the PM is the leader of the party with the most MPs.

      In the case of the UK, once the Conservative successor to Cameron is chosen, are there new general elections where the public get to vote for PM again (because well, not the same lot)? Or is it all internal to the Conservative party and the winner of its leadership contest automatically becomes PM? I assume it's #2.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        "In the case of the UK, once the Conservative successor to Cameron is chosen, are there new general elections where the public get to vote for PM again (because well, not the same lot)? Or is it all internal to the Conservative party and the winner of its leadership contest automatically becomes PM? I assume it's #2."

        Yes, it's #2. We don't vote for a PM. We vote for a local MP. Once the vote is over, the Queen invites the leader of the party with the most vote to the Palace and will usually ask the person to form a Government. The party leader doesn't actually need to have won his/her own seat to become PM, For that matter, s/he doesn't even have to be a party leader. S/He just needs to be someone who can "command the respect and support of The House". In theory, literally anyone could become PM, no matter the voted assemblage of MPs in the House of Commons. IIRC it was a little over 100 years ago when Lord someone or other was asked to form a government despite being neither an MP or party leader.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        "Dumb question, but I confess I dunno UK specifics."

        Not at all dumb and deserves an answer.

        The leader of the largest party after an election is normally the one asked to form a government. If that party has an overall majority that's pretty well a shoo-in. If not then someone has to try to form a coalition or even run without a coalition or overall majority.

        It's possible for a party with no formal coalition or no overall majority to govern; they might not get all their policies through and can be displaced by a vote of no confidence - that happened to Callaghan when he lost the support of the Ulster Unionists. In general that's not a good form of government because it's apt to hand disproportionate power to a very small fraction of the electorate.

        There's an extra twist when there's a no-overall majority in that the previous governing party might try to form a government even if they're not the biggest party so everybody has to wait until they decide it's a non-starter which caused some hesitation after the 2010 election.

        Once a party is in government they generally have the option to change leader and hence PM without having to call an election. That could be through ill-health (Eden and Wilson, for instance, within living memory) or by revolt (Thatcher), because the PM sees the runaway train coming down the track (Blair who handed over to Brown just in time for the latter to catch the consequences of his 10 years of pretending that housing costs could be ignored when measuring inflation, even if that meant ignoring rampant house price inflation /rant). It could also come from an intention to hand over to a new leader who'd then have time to establish himself before a general election which was Cameron's stated intent although he might have intended to leave it a little later.

        During the course of a parliament a government can lose its majority by by-elections which, IIRC, was what happened to Callaghan, and then becomes victim to a vote of no confidence.

        The current situation has the extra factor that there's an Act in place which imposes a strict 5-year interval on general elections. That was part of the previous coalition arrangement; it protected the LibDems against a snap election and also limited the Tory right wing's ability to rock the vote. It could, however, be repealed any time if Parliament wanted and presumably the Queen could, acting with the Privy Council if necessary, ignore it in an emergency.

        An incoming Remain PM could have the option of asking Parliament to repeal that act and hold a general election fought primarily on that issue so that it would be a new Parliament that would (or wouldn't) invoke section 50; there seems to be a general feeling over the last few decades that kicking stuff to the other side of a general election is a Good Thing in that it gives the electorate a chance to reflect. Irrespective of the next PM's views it would still be a Good Thing. In fact I think even some of the Leavers were saying that - or it might just have been Boris.

        HTH

        1. lorisarvendu

          "An incoming Remain PM could have the option of asking Parliament to repeal that act and hold a general election fought primarily on that issue so that it would be a new Parliament that would (or wouldn't) invoke section 50; there seems to be a general feeling over the last few decades that kicking stuff to the other side of a general election is a Good Thing in that it gives the electorate a chance to reflect. Irrespective of the next PM's views it would still be a Good Thing. In fact I think even some of the Leavers were saying that - or it might just have been Boris."

          If this course of action was (or more likely is) being considered by the current Government, then it will only work if there is no mention of it beforehand by anyone. Theresa May's recent comments are very telling - "Brexit means Brexit" and "no second referendum". On the surface this seems to say that if May becomes PM she is committed to taking us out. However she isn't saying that. She isn't saying "We WILL leave the EU, in accordance with the results of the Referendum/Will of the People". She is saying "Leaving means Leaving" which says nothing, and "no second referendum", which we all know.

          These well-chosen phrases seek to reunite the country, to tell the Remainers to give up fighting, and to reassure the Leavers that the Govt is on your side and will honour your vote.

          When she then announces that the Government is ready to honour the People's Decision, there will just be the little formality of a Parliamentary Vote to ratify Article 50...at which point 80% of both Houses may well vote No. If this happens there will be nothing an incumbent Government will be able to do. Parliament has spoken. I don't know enough about Parliamentary Law to know if a Government can ignore a defeat in the House of Commons, but if they do, they certainly risk a vote of No Confidence by the Opposition, which might just be carried by a few dissenting Tory MPs and result in a General Election. Which would delay Article 50 even further. While going along with the vote and scrapping Brexit plans would please 80% of MPs (including 90% of Labour MPs) and 48% of the General Public. Sure you'd have 17 million pissed-off Leave voters, but what are they going to do?

          This of course will only work if no hint of it gets out, and the new PM continues to play the "We're Leaving" card right up until the last minute. So keep an ear out for any MP actually saying "We will be invoking Article 50." I bet you won't hear it.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            "I don't know enough about Parliamentary Law to know if a Government can ignore a defeat in the House of Commons, but if they do, they certainly risk a vote of No Confidence by the Opposition, which might just be carried by a few dissenting Tory MPs and result in a General Election."

            I don't think it's law, just procedures of the House.

            If it was a free vote then AFAIK there are no consequences at all, likewise if it was a minor element of a govt. bill.

            If it was on a key principle of govt. policy and the govt. had an overall majority then a govt. might resign although resignation as a point of honour seems to be out of fashion these days. If it didn't there might well be a vote of no confidence (respecting votes of no confidence also seems to have gone out of fashion, doesn't it Jeremy?).

            With a minority govt. there'd be more of an expectation of the govt. just continuing on the basis that it couldn't really expect to get everything through and there might not even be a vote of no confidence if the opposition didn't fancy facing an election at the time. In any case there's no precedent for this with the current law on elections which was partly intended to avoid this turn of events for the late coalition.

            The real issue here is what happens in the event of a motion that most members of most parties don't want, isn't govt policy (assuming a remainer becomes PM) but has come about as a result of a non-binding referendum. I'm sure that must be totally unprecedented and very hard to call. Labour might try to play politics and abstain, turning it into a Tory in-fight. However with their own party having its own problems at the minute do they really want to provoke a major constitutional crisis?

            There could well be a case of here's the referendum result, here's a free vote on it and let's tip-toe around it and carry on.

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Upvote, main article.

    If I had one, and could give an up-vote to the main article....its yours.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: If I had one,

      Yeah, I'd need to be pissed to upvote that bollocks too!

  2. tentimes

    Cheap labour? Wait until the Convervatives get busy

    The author cites the availability of cheap labour from the EU whilst ignoring the fact that the minimum wage here is £7.20 and a huge amount of the workforce is on just that.

    Do you really think they will pay more now? There is a pool a people ready to jump at £7.20 and long will it continue.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Cheap labour? Wait until the Convervatives get busy

      "There is a pool a people ready to jump at £7.20"

      I'm sure this is one answer to the lack of increased productivity in the economy that puzzles economists. It's cheaper to simply add more cheap labour to cope with an increase in demand than to invest in more productive machinery. The other answer, of course is multiple layers of management occupied in pitching PowerPoint presentations at each other, probably about the advantages of using more cheap labour instead of investment.

  3. codejunky Silver badge

    Hmm

    "People feeling rejection. I think this is what the Leave campaign underestimated: the psychology of rejecting openness."

    I think this is a serious blindness for those fighting the leave campaign. Unfortunately the best way to make an argument against brexit is to only focus on the few who want to close ourselves off. However brexit was also the position of globalists who didnt want to be cut off from the world. If those in the remain camp want more global cooperation then they need to back the globalists of the leave group. The EU might want to wall itself off, it probably wont. We are already hearing of other countries wanting to make deals with us while our civil service claims its own incompetence for things being difficult.

    As someone wanting global participation I never understood those wanting to hide behind the walls of the EU accusing us of rejecting openness.

  4. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    More of the Same Sort of Nonsense with Establishment Players is AIRoot Madness ‽ .

    Hmmm? ...... And who's to say that everything is not going exactly according to plan, in a series of plans you be not privy to, by virtue of their stealthy construction and silent browser distribution ...... http://www.ur2die4.com/160630-2/

    IT and Times Leading Players in spaces with places are a'changed and a'changing the present crooked nature of future virtual reality. And your common disbelief is the sweetest of stealthy delivery systems at their work, rest and play:-).

    Thanks for that. Such is just so wonderfully kind.

    And please, do one and all and yourself a great favour, and investigate the linking information you are here freely given, in order not to prove, beyond a shadow of any doubt, that radical fundamental change is long overdue to provide progress and prosperity rather than austerity and chaos with CHAOS [Clouds Hosting Advanced Operating Systems with Global Operating Devices]

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cheap labour? India and Ukraine are not EU members, so what changes?

    BA, like many others in UK, is offshoring to India, which is not an EU member. Meanwhile a US company like Idera (who bought Embarcadero who bought the dev tools from Borland), is closing its Spanish offices, and there are hints their job are being outsourced to Ukraine, again, not an EU member. Oracle has shifted EMEA jobs to Egypt, once again, not an EU member.

    While some jobs may go to some cheaper EU members like Poland or Romania, it looks to me that most jobs, especially in the IT sector, are offshored or outsourced to even cheaper countries outside the EU, so what we're talking about? If needed, people from those countries immigrates anyway on some kind of special visa obtained by the companies employing them, so again it's not an EU "freedom of movement" issue.

    Maybe instead of the Polish Plumber, we should be more worried about the Indian Rent-A-Coder?

    Unless UK labour rules don't change to forbid the use of offshoring/outsourcing at cheaper prices, nothing will really change, EU or not EU.... but as long as the minister for employment is an Indian, guess what will happen?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: but as long as the minister for employment is an Indian, guess what will happen?

      I'm not a racist, but....

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: but as long as the minister for employment is an Indian, guess what will happen?

        It's not a matter of being racist. Some cultures keep very strong ties to their "origins". And they actively work to ensure members of their "clans" get all the advantages, at the expenses of what they see as "enemy" clans.

        It's part of clan-based societies, it happens, for example, in mafia-like organized crime. It something that has nothing to do with "race" - you will see that happen regardless of race - but it's something cultural.

        Clan-based cultures truly fears everything out of their clans. They try to recreate the same clan-based society wherever they go, and usually adapt very little to the cultures they migrate to. They tend to speak their original language, not that of the country they live in. They must keep their traditions, even the worst ones. They will even look for wives and husband in their country of origin.... it's a huge cultural issue. They can't truly cut their ties with their origins, and become citizens of their new country.

        That's one of the reason many fears the EU also - it asks to cut many ties with the "country of origin" and become European citizens.

        While I strongly believe all people are created equal, I strongly believe that not all cultures are equal. There are many that are plainly wrong, and just led, and still lead, to poverty and tragedy. That's why people emigrate. Just they want to bring with them the same culture that made their country of origin a tragedy Stupid, and dangerous.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: but as long as the minister for employment is an Indian, guess what will happen?

          I'm not a racist, but....blah blah blah blah blah blah I am a little bit racist.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "The answer, it turned out, was £25k a year for junior roles. I was quite shocked. In the very early 1990s I was briefly employed as a junior coder and was paid about the going rate back then: £19k. "

    Yeh but that's reality. UK trades at a loss, it loses 25 billion just to the EU alone each year in trade. To keep the GDP growing, it blows internal economy bubbles, debt / mortgages / student loans etc. So everything costs a shitload in the UK, and is dirt cheap in the Eastern parts of Europe.

    Obviously it can't go on forever, Cameron failed to renegotiate, and so we ejected him. Him and his cronies (like May) seem to be trying to hang on after being rejected, but that can't last.

    Really its up to Boris to take the lead now.

    He won, we Brexit, its for him to negotiate a new deal, and show a bit of upbeat confidence like the new leader he is.

    1. The JP

      Really its up to Boris to take the lead now

      Ha ha ha! Your new leader realises he has broken it, and doesn't know how to fix it. The funny thing is, no one else knows how to fix it either.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Really its up to Boris to take the lead now

        Boris doesn't want the next PM job, he wants the next next PM job. They need to find a victim who will take the job, serve section 50 notice and then resign, clearing the way for Boris (or whoever) to place ALL the blame for the big mess that ensues on the sucker.

        That assumes a PM can unilaterally serve notice without getting Parliament to agree. Any UK residents know whether that's possible? Even if that's not really allowed, could he do it anyway and claim his resignation was over the potential illegality of what he did?

        The question is, who is going to be dumb enough to take the job now? It will have to be someone either very old who just doesn't give a damn because he won't live to face the consequences or someone who would otherwise never have a chance in hell of being PM who just wants to see his name in the history books as having been PM, even if only for a couple days.

        1. John H Woods Silver badge

          Re: Really its up to Boris to take the lead now

          "That assumes a PM can unilaterally serve notice without getting Parliament to agree. Any UK residents know whether that's possible?" -- DougS

          IANAL but according to these experts it absolutely is possible for the PM to serve this notice.

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Really its up to Boris to take the lead now

          "They need to find a victim who will take the job, serve section 50 notice and then resign, clearing the way for Boris (or whoever) to place ALL the blame for the big mess that ensues on the sucker."

          No, your victim's successor will have to do some real work clear up the mess, if that's possible. The only possible good job on the horizon is the one after that.

    2. A K Stiles
      Facepalm

      unfortunately, you appear to not be aware of the most recent news...

    3. Solmyr ibn Wali Barad

      "Really its up to Boris to take the lead now."

      Boris does not seem to agree. He just did his own BJexit.

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        "He just did his own BJexit."

        It's pretty obvious that whoever takes over from Call Me Dave is signing their own political Death Warrant. Boris may be many things but he's not stupid (despite the buffoon persona).

        1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

          Indeed, as this parody shows:

          http://youtu.be/-a6HNXtdvVQ

    4. Dan 55 Silver badge

      You know, if I could just make crap up and lie outlandishly with a cheeky grin without troubling my conscience, I'd probably have a sizeable majority of people demanding that I be PM too. I don't need the crap hairstyle though, I've already got one of those.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    To me Brexit mostly shows...

    That a lot of politicians and upper managers who don't have any clue what's actually happening in the real world are now being thrown back into reality and now their virtual masks get torn off. In other words: now you can really see for yourself how little they actually know.

    Theory is not always equal to reality.

    Welcome... to the real world.

  8. ecofeco Silver badge

    Night of the Living Dead

    This whole thing is like the end of the movie, Night of the Living Dead (the original). The very last spoken lines in the movie:

    "You don't want to go over there. They're... they're all messed up."

    On one hand, there are claims that cheap labor was readily available because of the EU, on the other hand the EU had some pretty decent "average person" protection laws from labor to health and general human rights.

    Yet somehow, the GB Powers That Be (henceforth referred to as the PTB) seemed to have no trouble sending tech jobs overseas, recruiting immigrants employee below market rates and generally fucking over the tech sector. You know, just the U.S.

    My question is, how will this change? Because all I see is that without the strong human rights laws afforded by the EU, the PTB are going to basically strip mine tech labor worse than before and all the complaining you hear is merely a diversion as was the reason given by the tech sector to Remain.

    In other words, it seems like you've been bamboozled and it's my belief the PTB will dismantle as many human rights protections, especially labor, as quickly as they can.

    I've seen this movie before. More than once. Trickle down anyone? Society of prosperity? Deregulation? Free trade? Dismantled unions? Yeah, how did that work out?

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: Night of the Living Dead

      "...just like the U.S."

    2. Down not across

      Re: Night of the Living Dead

      "You don't want to go over there. They're... they're all messed up."

      +1 just for that

  9. Starting
    Thumb Down

    Three-day week

    " ...in 1974 (when I was very small) the UK only had commercial electricity for three days a week.... Amazingly, the UK survived."

    I'm older than you and remember it well — it wasn't fun. Is this the Albanian option? No doubt the Albanians were without electricity for years. What's your point? We're in the ****, but, hey, it was fun waving the union jack.

  10. AlexS
    Megaphone

    We are NOT out yet. I felt so strong about this I wrote a song:

    https://m.soundcloud.com/alex-shirley/hold-onto-your-second-referendum-rights-mix-1

  11. Howard Hanek
    Childcatcher

    Any Correlation to Vampires and Zombies Are Coincidential

    One of the great things about draining a long time swamp is to uncover all the dead things, the long lost things laying sometimes for generations waiting to be finally disposed of properly.

    Personally I believe there are way too many zombies and vampires in government........period and THEY dislike change.

  12. YumDogfood

    May be a tad opinionated...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights - "...the convention entered into force on 3 September 1953. All Council of Europe member states are party to the Convention..."

    The EU was formed in ~1993. The Maastricht treaty, and all that subsequent jazz - If you remember the fuss over it at the time. So, only those treaties and such after 1993, or those superseded by EU rulings are potentially going to get a full kerb stomping and kicking if we go full article #50. This is only conjecture from a poor semi-edumacated lad (thank you Labour, Tories. A pox on _all_ your houses), but I suspect the shape of the future to be somewhat familiar and not utterly alien. Human nature and history being what they are (rare bright spots in a whole load of crap.)

    I'm disappointed that we may be leaving the EU. Note: not sad, weepy nor panicky Kermit the frog arm wavy. The dissembling, rhetoric and overtly emotional appeals to illogic are prime fuel for the dysfunctional who just love having an enemy, any enemy to fill up on hate with. Politics and soap opera indivisible.

    This needs to stop or we'll continue to tear ourselves apart. I loath the GWB with us or against us partisan mentality that seems to wash over politics today. We need to get real and work it out, think instead of blamestorming the other side. Calling brexiters names will only push them Trumpwards. What happens if you get called a bad name? You think better of the name caller? Love em' up more, right? Use your noodle and persuade. Be subtle instead of deionising[1] putdowns.

    OK, time for my meds and a cold shower. Nurse!

    [1] Demonising of course, but I let the spell checker have its way.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Please do not use URL shorteners

    Sorry, editorial comment here - please use full URLs behind links, as a matter of principle. The youtu.be one is about the only one you can trust not to go south, but in any other case I prefer to see where a URL points before I follow it, also because I tend to strip out any trackers before I do so. Please use a full URL.

    That's all, thanks.

    (for the rest, the "tech elite" interests me exactly squat. That they found a way to gather eyeballs doesn't make them experts in almost anything).

  14. xnfec

    Fear and Brexit in Tech City

    I lived through the 70's while I was Uni. It was not that bad. I still had a good time. The brown-outs were inconvenient and caused by strikes - we still had Unions then - not popular, I know, but they did fight for our wages until, irony of ironies we earned enough to become tories and then kicked them out. We survived the Blitz too though I sure you are not suggesting we go back to that. In this country we have got used to blaming the EU for everything - both sides do it, it is a convenient scapegoat so it is no surprise we voted to leave. Whether it was a rational choice is another topic. Without the Unions, we let the bosses decide everything so they pay crap wages and then, like Pilate, hold their hands up and say: that's the way it is, what can I do? The EU has kept the peace in Europe since it's inception. For that alone is worth keeping it and staying in.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Fear and Brexit in Tech City

      @ xnfec

      "The EU has kept the peace in Europe since it's inception. For that alone is worth keeping it and staying in."

      No it hasnt.

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