back to article Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

The effort to create a systemd-free Debian fork has borne fruit, with a beta of “Devuan Jessie” appearing in the wild. Devuan came into being after a rebellion by a self-described “Veteran Unix Admin collective” argued that Debian had betrayed its roots and was becoming too desktop-oriented. The item to which they objected …

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      1. John Hughes

        Re: "tcp6 0 0 :::9090 :::* LISTEN 1/systemd"

        I've done a bit of network programming and one of the things I've learned is that you should never use your master process to talk to the network.M
        Then you'll be happy with systemd -- the master process doesn't talk to the network, it only listens to it.

    1. Aaron Kulkis

      Systemd boots up faster? Since when.

      That was the original reason that systemd was sold to the community -- that it would boot up faster... which has ALWAYS been a specious argument -- since NOBODY that I've ever heard of sits around rebooting their computer all day. If I reboot more than once/month, then something is seriously wrong -- and that's usually hardware. In any event, systemd has utterly FAILED in that stated objective -- I've never seen a systemd machine boot up faster than an init machine when the two are of comparable hardware and installed software with similar sets of deamons fired up.

      On the other hand, sytemd has replaced a simple, robust system with some sort of brittle and fragile ball of code that's the software equivalent of a sculpture imitating and M.C. Escer painting... it's only works right when viewed from EXACTLY the right angle, otherwise, it's a f u c k i n g disaster, and even then, it takes up FAR FAR FAR more room than it should, And the binary system logging STILL sucks, forcing even more waste to run a second, text-only syslog so that you can have a system log that's reliable enough to count on when everything is falling to s h i t.

  1. Justin Clift

    Download site is super slow, use the .torrent file

    The download site seems to be having capacity issues at the moment. There is a .torrent file available (on the download site, oops!):

    https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta.torrent

    A working magnet hash instead is this, if that helps: 9b0fa597ab8bdd89a57434876947dbe378a79aad

    The torrent download is 10.55GB, containing:

    • SHA256SUMS (2.33 kB)
    • SHA256SUMS.asc (1.51 kB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_amd64_CD.iso (675.3 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_amd64_CD.list.gz (13.57 kB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_amd64_DVD.iso (4.69 GB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_amd64_DVD.list.gz (42.59 kB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_amd64_NETINST.iso (222.3 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_amd64_NETINST.list.gz (4.53 kB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_amd64_cloud.qcow2 (727.7 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_amd64_opennebula.qcow2 (718.6 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_amd64_vagrant.box (683.6 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_armhf_bananapi.img.xz (194.1 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_armhf_bananapro.img.xz (194.0 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_armhf_beagleboneblack.img.xz (288.3 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_armhf_chromeacer.img.xz (278.6 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_armhf_cubieboard2.img.xz (261.1 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_armhf_cubietruck.img.xz (261.9 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_armhf_odroidxu.img.xz (210.7 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_armhf_raspi2.img.xz (203.6 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_i386_CD.iso (678.4 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_i386_CD.list.gz (12.77 kB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_i386_NETINST.iso (264.2 MB)
    • devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_i386_NETINST.list.gz (4.74 kB)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Download site is super slow, use the .torrent file

      Thanks for the link. Seems to be working very well now. I just torrented the whole 10.55GB in 27 minutes and am seeded it now. Averaged about 6.5MB/sec. That's pretty damned good over wifi to my service provider modem.

  2. J J Carter Silver badge
    Linux

    Finally!

    Yep, my Nan positively demanded, demanded I tell you, a distro without systemd. And rightly so.,

    1. Tom 7 Silver badge

      Re: Finally!

      You should listen to your Nan. When you get to her age you too will squirm with embarrassment at how impetuous and wrong you were as a young turk adopting things that seemed so cool with the blinders of youth.

  3. davcefai
    Linux

    Poettering Free Systems.

    First we had Pulseaudio. When googling solutions to problems I almost always came across a post by Poettering raving about how wonderful Pulseaudio was and it didn't need fixing.

    Pulseaudio went to the great bitbucket in the sky and my systems stabilised again.

    Until SystemD. When I allowed SystemD on board it was like going back to the awful Windows days. Bugs, problems, opaqueness and no fixes.

    Now I'm back to SysVinit and no longer have frustrating mornings getting the PCs to boot properly. The sad thing is that I cannot yet uninstall the the SystemD mess 'cos too many packages have dependencies on it.

    If Debian stick with SystemD then, sadly, it's bye bye Debian.

  4. Sloppy Crapmonster

    Of the 90 Debian servers I'm responsible for, I've replaced systemd on zero of them. It's just not an issue. I'm not saying it's not an issue for *anyone*, but I personally have no problem with it. And it makes my laptop start up and shut down *really fucking fast*.

    1. jake Silver badge

      @Sloppy Crapmonster

      "Of the 90 Debian servers I'm responsible for, I've replaced systemd on zero of them. It's just not an issue. I'm not saying it's not an issue for *anyone*, but I personally have no problem with it. And it makes my laptop start up and shut down *really fucking fast*."

      Uh ... your 90 Debian servers need to be restarted regularly, so you need "really fucking fast" restart times? Methinks you need to actually understand the underlying system ...

    2. Aaron Kulkis

      Consider yourself lucky.

      Systemd only works properly if you don't have a need to customize anything. As soon as you do, systemd tries to hijack the system, and usually ends up shooting hostages resulting in a huge bloody mess.

      1. Bronek Kozicki Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: Consider yourself lucky.

        ... which is why Devuan is such a bloody good idea - simply do not let the f*er in. At all. As in "you have a choice of init, as long as it is not actively damaging the whole system". And that's why I support this distribution.

    3. rnturn

      Lucky you...

      I haven't seen an appreciable shortening of the boot process after updating my laptop to a release that's full-on systemd. A few seconds less -- maybe -- but it's not as though I was timing my boots. (Does anyone?)

      My understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) was that systemd was intended to benefit the management of virtual machines by reducing boot times for those. Unfortunately for those folks who are /not/ running VMs, they're stuck with systemd anyway.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    OT - pulseaudio rant

    it seems some re-engineering is a case of 'art for arts sake' i don't know much about startup scripts et al, but hopefully the BSDs won't include any of this poettering-soft (i havent checked in on BSD for a few years by now), as if desktop Linux isn't already losing it's way.

    lets not pollute desktop OS with more layers of flaky software, pulseaudio sucks big time, always has, probably always will, it's a mess, but it does mix audio streams, something the Android Guys have only just noticed, but why not just fix ALSA instead.

    Several years ago (on Linux) i regularly played multiple stereo simultaneous audio streams from one computer and one soundcard, it played perfectly well using ALSA - using DMIX - if your soundcard had hardware mixing. If the code was that bad by then, then tidy ALSA and support it, and work on another replacement, not just layer another fudge over the top. it's a complete bodge.

    While we're at it, name the damn pulseaudio functions for human beings too eh ?

    Why are distro's so eager to adopt flaky software (and flll the OS with other crap) nowadays ?

    yes, there's often a better way to do things, but at what cost, Linux used to suck a lot less years ago, before *buntu & poettering got their meathooks on it, every day BSD looks more like the way to go.

    Of course, if you're really serious about audio production, you'll be using coreaudio instead..

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: OT - pulseaudio rant

      > but hopefully the BSDs won't include any of this poettering-soft (i havent checked in on BSD for a few years by now)

      Unfortunately some of the pollution is spreading. Not systemd or pulse, but I've seen some crap like Dbus even on fairly minimal FreeBSD servers.

  6. Citizen99
    Linux

    Being a desktop workstation user, the 64-bit version of ExeGNUlinux

    http://www.exegnulinux.net/downloads/jessie/

    which uses Devuan, and comes with (xfce and) Trinity, the fork of KDE3, suits me very well.

  7. Jim 59

    Fixing a problem on wheezy:

    - look in text file. See error message. Take action

    Fixing a problem in jessie (systemd):

    - your main challenge here is in finding the error messages in the first place. This will usually be more complex a task than either the underlying problem or the remedial actions needed to fix it. Often you will just give up and take a series of guesses as to what the problem might be. Your third or fourth guess will be correct and so after trailing a number of solutions, a fix is at hand. Rather like trouble shooting Windows.

    Got no axe to grind, just hate bad engineering.

  8. Bodge99

    If you wish to try the testing release...

    Replace your /etc/apt/sources.list with this:

    # This includes the non-free repositories

    deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged/ ascii main contrib non-free

    deb-src http://packages.devuan.org/merged/ ascii main contrib non-free

    deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged/ ascii-security main contrib non-free

    deb-src http://packages.devuan.org/merged/ ascii-security main contrib non-free

    deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged/ ascii-updates main contrib non-free

    deb-src http://packages.devuan.org/merged/ ascii-updates main contrib non-free

    deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged/ ascii-backports main contrib non-free

    deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged/ ceres main contrib non-free

    # End

    If you wish, add yourself to the sudoers group with

    su

    adduser <username> sudo

    Logout & login again.

    sudo apt-get update

    sudo apt-get upgrade

    sudo apt-get autoremove

    sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

    sudo apt-get autoremove

    Now reboot to a systemd free system...

  9. crhylove

    Devuan is Awesome.

    I built many, MANY debian servers in the last decade, and Debian 8 was unstable, crashed, used extra CPU/RAM, just a whole host of issues compared with 6/7.

    I'm not sure it was systemd, but the binary log thing was too egregious for me to accept either. Plus, I'm familiar with Puttering's previous work, so....

    I'm using Devuan exclusively now, and it is much closer in performance and stability to Debian 6/7 than Debian 8 has been for me. So, I highly recommend you give it a shot.

  10. freesoftware4lif

    Forum discussion on why ArchLinux moved to Systemd

    Checkout a related discussion from r/archlinux:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_archlinux_embrace_systemd/

    2brainz comment in particular provides a good summary of why they thought it was a good move

    https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_archlinux_embrace_systemd/d3rhxlc

    > I was the primary maintainer for Arch's init scripts for a while and I can share a couple of thoughts.

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