Sign in / up

back to article Next year's Windows 10 auto-upgrade is MSFT's worst idea since Vista

Microsoft's decision to push out Windows 10 upgrades as automatic Windows Update downloads is one of those ideas that sounded great in a Redmond meeting room, but will cause more problems than it solves. Right from the get-go Microsoft has made it clear that it is looking for a very fast rollout of Windows 10. The new …

COMMENTS

Post your comment
House rules Send corrections
Add to 'My topics' unstar *

Page:

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

          "I don't know what the issue you're facing might be..."

          Read what I wrote! "using up my data allowance without permission". There's also the matter of "upgrading" my HTPC to W10 prevents it being used as a Free-to-air television since there's no Windows Media Centre available under W10. Mrs Git wants her PC to behave the same as the one she uses at work where there are no plans to change OS or MSO version since they have only just made the move from WinXP.

          A note on my lawn: Iff you ask permission and are not going to be stealing from me then likely permission would be happily and freely granted. If OTOH your purpose for wanting to stand on my lawn is so that you can more easily steal my property, then no fucking way! Do you not understand the concepts of theft and property?

          28 3 Reply
          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

            >Do you not understand the concepts of theft and property?

            Probably not... these days "theft" seems to have become another rhetorical euphemism for copyright infringement. Hardly applicable here as what you're describing actually involves clear, quantifiable, demonstrable loss. I think the fact that you're actually being unwillingly deprived of something of yours is probably causing the confusion.

            Perhaps you could try newspeak: "my intellectual property rights are being piracied"?

            5 3 Reply
            1. Pompous Git Silver badge
              Reply Icon

              Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

              It's not me that's confused. Theft: "(criminal law) the dishonest taking of property belonging to another person with the intention of depriving the owner permanently of its possession."

              MS has permanently deprived me of several GB of data allowance purchased with my money.

              23 1 Reply
              1. Anonymous Coward
                Reply Icon
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                Then take them to court and sue them.

                In general I am in agreement with your points of view.

                Like you, I feel that they have gone too far with this tampering of MY PC.

                I'll gladly chip in a tenner for your case in the small claims court.

                MS need to be taught a lesson. And that lesson has to start somewhere.

                I too was MS certified (plus Oracle, RedHat and IBM) in the past. No longer worth it. Far too many tick box certified experts out there who don't know a bit from a byte.

                Roll on retirement. Then I can shut the door on MS once and for good (riddance)

                15 1 Reply
                1. Pompous Git Silver badge
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                  Many thanks for your kind offer AC; I'm tempted, but at this stage can't see very much point. True I'm out of pocket by $AU80, but small claims costs $AU111 and does not award damages. It's also true that I have with much pleasure watched a tradesman fume for 8 hours awaiting the attention of the small claims magistrate while I happily read for an upcoming history exam.

                  The fly in the ointment here is that I am about to put the farm on the market and move into a small town nearby. This requires considerable work on the world-famous House of Steel in order to generate the best possible price, building a Very Large Shed on one of our properties in town and commencing a new vegetable garden at the other. In a word, I'm busy. A year ago I would have accepted with alacrity.

                  Retirement is in general fun. But I agree with my friends who all say the same thing as I do: "How the fuck did I ever find time to do anything while I was still working?"

                  15 0 Reply
                  1. Ken Hagan Gold badge
                    Reply Icon

                    Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                    "How the fuck did I ever find time to do anything while I was still working?"

                    You didn't, which is why you've now got 40 years of odd jobs to catch up on.

                    15 0 Reply
                    1. Pompous Git Silver badge
                      Reply Icon

                      Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                      Sadly my body is now considerably more arthritic than it was 40 years ago and it takes four times as long to do anything. Which is why we are selling the farm and moving into town to a block that's one twentieth the size.

                      1 0 Reply
              2. Anonymous Coward
                Reply Icon
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                >It's not me that's confused.

                Didn't say you were... I was splaffing to you, not about you.

                :(

                1 0 Reply
                1. Pompous Git Silver badge
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                  If I knew what "splaffing"* meant I might apologise, but I don't, so I won't. Now I am confused. And it's time to watch New Tricks and eat some lovely roast beef. 'Night.

                  * This word is not in the OED.

                  1 2 Reply
                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Reply Icon
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

                    Sp(l)affing is what we do here. Perhaps this will clarify (I'm not that commentard BTW).

                    Can understand your reticence in apologising for being splaffed at.

                    Night

                    ;)

                    Edit: The downvote wasn't from me

                    2 0 Reply
                    1. Pompous Git Silver badge
                      Reply Icon
                      Pint

                      Re: Sp(l)affing

                      Please accept my apologies then. And a have a nice cold beer.

                      2 0 Reply
                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Reply Icon
                        Pint

                        Re: Sp(l)affing

                        Much obliged :D

                        2 0 Reply
    2. P. Lee
      Reply Icon

      Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

      Being able to stop them isn't really the issue.

      W10 is not free. There are free "upgrades" for some products for which people paid money. MS are significantly and materially changing the product after the sale. If I bought W7, and followed MS' recommendations regarding security patches, why am I no longer running W7?

      It shows a great deal of contempt for the people who bought their products. Its bait and switch. Whether W10 is better or not is completely irrelevant.

      I actually have a couple of windows installations on one disk. I don't really use them - one has an old Steam account on it and the other is reserved for "dodgy" use and they both hang off the same license. It will be interesting to see if I can upgrade one of them to W10, just to play with it. Play being the operative word. I moved all my "production" desktop (including Steam) to Linux quite a while ago.

      I can afford to be smug because ditching windows of any version has almost zero impact on me. What can I say. I don't care for the cloud, I feel no need to have data seamlessly available to my phone and laptop but I really do object in principle to handing a great deal of power to corporates. I have nothing to hide, but I still have plenty to fear. In principle I object to making people so IT illiterate and/or ill-equipped that they can't look after themselves.

      Look what happened to Novell and DEC and Sinclair and Amstrad and Northern Rock. What happens if that happens to MS or your cloud provider? What happens if Lehman Bros happens to Facebook. Where are all your photos of your kids? Did they go from Phone to Cloud in a "post-PC" era?

      You might utterly trust corporates and government with all the intimate details of your life, but governments change. All it needs is a bit of hunger, the collapse of the currency and you'll be surprised what people will vote for. Did you dabble a bit in trade-unionism when you were young? Perhaps you had a running (email) joke about purchasing class-A substances which looks a little unfunny a few years later when your friend actually gets into dealing.

      What happens when the data retention archive is so all-knowing and so well-protected that no-one can gainsay what the government says is in it. Its just computer data. How would you know if its been updated or if someone hacked it? What if they just said they hacked it and made stuff up? Just the existence of such a thing is dangerous. It isn't a question about who has what to hide, its about who can misuse it. Nothing, not the rare act of terrorism nor ease of use warrants the sucking of so much personal data into a cloud form, where can be so abused.

      34 1 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

        Isn't "bait and switch" supposed to be a felony in "the land of the free" or is that another one of their laws which only applies to plebs?

        0 0 Reply
      2. agatum
        Reply Icon

        Re: If you're getting tired of the notifications, just disable them

        "I don't care for the cloud, I feel no need to have data seamlessly available to my phone and laptop but I really do object in principle to handing a great deal of power to corporates."

        I do need to have data seamlessly available to my phone and laptop (and desktop). And I have; some call it subversion. My source code and my business and my pictures (my life) have no place in cloud where it could be taken (stolen) by third parties at any time.

        2 0 Reply
  2. Pompous Git Silver badge

    An analogy for RIBrsiq

    Imagine if you will Mrs Git taking the car to drive into our nearby market town to purchase the few groceries we need given our penchant for fresh, homegrown food. Instead, the car's manufacturer insists it must go to a more distant towns on the other side of the island that doesn't sell what she needs to purchase. Can you now see the problem?

    3 1 Reply
    1. Mpeler
      Reply Icon
      Pint

      Re: An analogy for RIBrsiq

      Reminds me of an old joke:

      If Microsoft made toasters...

      Every time you bought a loaf of bread, you would have to buy a toaster. You wouldn't have to take the toaster, but you'd still have to pay for it anyway.

      Toaster '95 would weigh 15000 pounds (hence requiring a reinforced steel countertop), draw enough electricity to power a small city, take up 95% of the space in your kitchen, would claim to be the first toaster that lets you control how light or dark you want your toast to be, and would secretly interrogate your other appliances to find out who made them.

      Everyone would hate Microsoft toasters, but nonetheless would buy them since most of the good bread only works with their toasters.

      Have a beer with your toast - and one for your missus, too...

      3 0 Reply
  3. Buzzword

    Make your bloody minds up!

    You're the same twits who buy dodgy Chinese Android phones, then have the gall to complain two months later that they aren't being updated to Android Marshmallow. Either it's a good thing to always get the latest version, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways.

    1 24 Reply
    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Make your bloody minds up!

      People want and expect bug-fixes, in particular for glaring security holes.

      They do not want changes that break basic functionality (e.g. removal of media centre) or require re-training to use (have you ever had to give telephone support to an elderly relative?). Android is a basket-case in this respect, but Windows has a long history of keeping those two aspects separate, until this W10 cock-down-throat push.

      17 0 Reply
      1. Pompous Git Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Make your bloody minds up!

        "have you ever had to give telephone support to an elderly relative?"

        Jesus H Christ! Did you have to remind me? My stupid brother-in-law has managed to install W10 and can no longer print. He doesn't even understand what I mean when I say I can't help him with W10 because I am not running it or ever likely to. He just says: "It's a computer and you understand these things..."

        17 0 Reply
        1. Paul Crawford Silver badge
          Reply Icon
          Trollface

          Re: @Pompous Git

          Try giving your brother-in-law the details of a local paid support company.

          You will be amazed at how quickly he either decides his printer is no big deal, or uses Google & trial-and-error to fix it himself.

          5 1 Reply
          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: @Pompous Git

            Nope, you forgot the third scenario. He refuses, tries to trial-and-error it and causes physical damage that may necessitate the use of emergency or protective services. There are times people should have a license to use a computer, but since most computers do not operate on public property...

            0 2 Reply
            1. Paul Crawford Silver badge
              Reply Icon

              Re: @Pompous Git

              "causes physical damage that may necessitate the use of emergency or protective services"

              Sounds like he nagged support once too often and a 'solution' was found using the printer and a jar of Vaseline...

              6 0 Reply
              1. Mpeler
                Reply Icon
                Coat

                Re: @Pompous Git

                So much for UnPNP...

                2 0 Reply
              2. Pompous Git Silver badge
                Reply Icon

                Re: @Pompous Git

                ROFL! It would be a brave man to do that! He's a big bugger...

                1 0 Reply
          2. Pompous Git Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: @Pompous Git

            He's far too tight to cough up money... to my ex-Certified Solution Provider partner for instance. I'm playing a waiting game. He lives in the city to which I go as infrequently as possible. If he has borked the machine with W10 (which is by no means certain as he is as ignorant as you can get of computer terminology), then I'm going to be off the hook. I've only used W10 for less than an hour and will never do so again. Unless someone offers me an insane amount of money and that will certainly not be my brother-in-law.

            3 0 Reply
    2. Pompous Git Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Make your bloody minds up!

      My (cheap) Android phone (htc) does exactly what I want it to do. I make and receive phone calls and tether it to my ASUS Zenbook to access emails and the Interwebs. I have no idea which version it is running, nor do I care as long as it performs the duties for which I purchased it.

      PS I am not a twit.

      9 0 Reply
      1. a_yank_lurker
        Reply Icon

        Re: Make your bloody minds up!

        @Pompous Git - Your point is valid. People buy devices for specific purposes. If the devices and associated software is functional, people are satisfied. I use a cheap Android phone for phone calls, texting, and mobile surfing (mostly to check when the next bus is due and check on the weather). It does those things flawlessly and it is not connected to my bank, main email (it has its own email account), or online shopping. However I use may PC for more strenuous computing activities and activities which require more security.

        4 0 Reply
    3. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Make your bloody minds up!

      You're the same twits who buy dodgy Chinese Android phones, then have the gall to complain two months later that they aren't being updated to Android Marshmallow. Either it's a good thing to always get the latest version, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways.

      Phone companies seem to be a world unto their own, they seemingly have forgotten that they aren't actually in the phone business but the personal computer business, and that the latter requires ongoing software maintenance.

      I'd like security updates for my devices. If that means I have to either do it myself, or pay someone to do it, then so be it, but I'd like the option. Sometimes the device is bought because it offers features that some of the more updated devices doesn't offer and so compromises have to be made. In my case, that means being stuck with Android 4.1. At least it isn't something running Java2 Micro edition, which was the other alternative.

      No, the Android world is not a shining example of what should happen, if anything, it's a shining example of abandonware. A company releases a version of Android for their device, then dusts their hands and says "Job done!" and walks away. It's the exact opposite of what Microsoft is proposing.

      I think the IT world would like something in between, a say on the matter. It does not, nor should not, have to be a binary choice.

      4 0 Reply
  4. Lostintranslation

    I have three ageing PC's, none of which, according to Microsoft, are capable of being upgraded to Windows 10 due to hardware or driver issues.

    Will Microsoft stop reminding me that they should be upgraded though? Like heck they will.

    24 0 Reply
    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge
      Reply Icon

      Lucky you. On the other hand ... pity the poor saps who have PCs that according to Microsoft *can* be upgraded, and who then attempt the upgrade only to discover that they couldn't and are now in a state where the upgrade didn't result in a usable system and so they are unable to navigate to the place where they click to roll back to the previous version.

      Or, as mentioned already by several people, those whose PCs can be upgraded but they won't have driver support for their scanner or printer or ... (Good news for hardware vendors, obviously. They get the sales and Microsoft get the blame, despite the fact that most printer and scanner drivers these days are trivial wrappers around a USB driver stack that is provided almost entirely by Microsoft.)

      14 0 Reply
  5. OH

    The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

    Even when it is a recommended update you still get the chance to accept or decline it before it installs and if you do accept it then you can still roll back.

    "Early next year, we expect to be re-categorizing Windows 10 as a “Recommended Update”. Depending upon your Windows Update settings, this may cause the upgrade process to automatically initiate on your device. Before the upgrade changes the OS of your device, you will be clearly prompted to choose whether or not to continue. And of course, if you choose to upgrade (our recommendation!), then you will have 31 days to roll back to your previous Windows version if you don’t love it."

    You can also be sure that the approach for enterprises is different. I have never seen a single prompt for Win10 upgrade on my large corporation managed Windows 7 Dell PC.

    How do the people who are concerned with the Windows 10 telemetry manage to exist on the internet? Are they using chrome? Google search? gmail? Facebook? iCloud and iMessage? Siri? Do they read the EULAs? Do they trust those other companies more than MS?

    EULA for icloud and therefore iMessage (which means all text messages you sent to other iPhone users if you didn't turn off the default setting)...

    "Apple reserves the right to take steps Apple believes are reasonably necessary or appropriate to enforce and/or verify compliance with any part of this Agreement. You acknowledge and agree that Apple may, without liability to you, access, use, preserve and/or disclose your Account information and Content to law enforcement authorities, government officials, and/or a third party, as Apple believes is reasonably necessary or appropriate, if legally required to do so or if Apple has a good faith belief that such access, use, disclosure, or preservation is reasonably necessary to: (a) comply with legal process or request; (b) enforce this Agreement, including investigation of any potential violation thereof; (c) detect, prevent or otherwise address security, fraud or technical issues; or (d) protect the rights, property or safety of Apple, its users, a third party, or the public as required or permitted by law."

    3 22 Reply
    1. Paul Shirley
      Reply Icon

      Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

      I want aware of firefox even being able to monitor my desktop searches, application launches, system settings, used data or much of anything I don't volunteer, let alone report then to the mothership. Neither does my mail software. The malware known as win10 however...

      11 0 Reply
      1. OH
        Reply Icon

        Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

        Firefox has telemetry

        0 3 Reply
        1. Chemist
          Reply Icon

          Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

          "Firefox has telemetry"

          Only if you want it to

          2 0 Reply
          1. Paul Shirley
            Reply Icon

            Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

            "Firefox has telemetry"

            ...that actually turns off when you tell it to. Unlike the hour I wasted last night trying to find out why Win10 was burning an entire core (and keeping the rest of the CPU turbo clocked) handling CEIP related crap, on a machine with CEIP disabled and I'm fairly certain uninstalled. Win10 had magically 'forgotten' to uninstall InvAgent.dll and left more triggers to launch it than I could find.

            And if this happens to you: what finally killed it was taking ownership of system32\invagent.dll and renaming it. You can kill the obvious Task Scheduler hooks but it wasn't enough to kill this bastard.

            2 0 Reply
    2. Pompous Git Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

      This is a lie. Every version of Windows from 95 onward commenced to install by transferring the relevant files from the installation media to the local hard disk, or more recently SSD. W10 commences after this step. That is, a significant portion of the installation has already taken place without the user's permission.

      And again, WTF has what Apple do got to do with this?

      19 0 Reply
      1. King Jack
        Reply Icon
        Holmes

        Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

        WTF has what Apple do got to do with this?

        I.Q. challenged people justify things as OK because someone else does it too or to a worse degree. So getting mugged and stabbed is good because another mugger would have shot you, so it's all good.

        M$ is fine because Apple and Google exist and do something similar.

        11 1 Reply
        1. illiad
          Reply Icon

          Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

          I am sure that any Apple OS upgrade does NOT *downgrade* the quality of GUI graphics or ease of configuration... Apple users please verify... :)

          3 0 Reply
          1. Pompous Git Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

            I have a friend with a Macbook who decided to upgrade the OS to the latest and greatest. What he hadn't realised is that the DL was considerably greater than his monthly data allowance. The install died part the way through. So, he decided to reinstall the version of OS X that came with the machine. That failed to even start I believe. The machine has been in the hands of the Geniuses at our local Genius Bar for five months now...

            1 0 Reply
    3. Kobus Botes
      Reply Icon

      Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

      Nope. It could be that they are staggering these updates, for in our environment I have seen the whole gamut of options, from no GWX nag icon through to it being an "optional" update that comes pre-selected and which will install once you reboot.

      As far as we know only one machine has updated itself on a reboot without any user intervention at all, but I have caught a couple of machines that would have installed X on the next reboot.

      Ditto for CEIP - Microsoft ignores your decision NOT to participate and installs all those telemetry and other spyware updates.

      Ditto again for ignoring your decision to hide KB3038853; on some machines I have had to hide it up to four times (setting up brand new W7 machines - installing updates takes up to a week: OK, if I were to babysit it permanently it would probably take three full days. I still cannot understand how it can take up to six hours to FIND updates, let alone install. I remember one particular machine that started installing updates late on a Friday afternoon (just after 5) and, come Monday morning, was at 86%. On those machines I usually abandon the job and reboot the machine - the subsequent update goes a bit faster then. We also do not use a domain and I update before installing anything else or create users - so that problem with multiple logins to a domain taking up to six hours logging on does not apply.) before it would relent and accept my choice. I just don't know how long that will last, though, before it will override my choice.

      I sometimes wonder if Microsoft had not perhaps made an undertaking to $Advertiser(s) that they would have an installed base of Windows 10 of X hundred million by Y months after release of 10, and now realise that they are falling woefully behind schedule, with possible penalties amounting to $$$$$$ plenty, hence their agressive push to get 10 on as many PC's as possible.

      11 0 Reply
      1. CFWhitman
        Reply Icon

        Re: The recommended update will still require the user to accept or decline before installing

        As to the long periods of time it takes Windows 7 to update: I have found that for some reason if you exceed 200 updates by very much in one update installation session, the machine hangs indefinetely (it seems like it usually happens in the 210s), and you have to cancel the rest of the updates. Sometimes the machine has to be cold booted, and I always wonder if it will come back up right if that happens (it has always come back up OK so far, but I haven't let this happen very many times). If before you let the updates install you whittle the number down to 200 or below, then the update installation is much less likely to hang. The updates will still take several hours, but they will not hang indefinitely. Of course, then you have to do another batch, which may well be over 200 again (depending on how many more updates have been "found" by the time you run it again). I've never seen in excess of 200 updates more than twice on the same machine.

        On my own machines I run Linux, where updates have been much less problematic.

        2 0 Reply
  6. Elmer Phud

    Nope

    "Nowadays, if you boot up a Windows 7 or 8 system you'll see a variety of popups encouraging you to upgrade – roughly every few days,"

    Still not seen one -- I'm waiting for the SP update (fall edition) or later.

    0 0 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Nope

      Is your system actually online?

      8 0 Reply
    2. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Nope

      I thought I had escaped the nagging but eventually it started, along with W10 appearing in the list of upgrades already ticked for installation. Sneaky bastards. Now it's as bad as getting nuisance phone calls.

      I don't have a beef with Microsoft but it's royally fucking me off.

      So, way to go Microsoft, you are turning even your supporters against you, proving you are the bunch of wankers your detractors said you were.

      13 0 Reply
  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is your system actually online?

    .. or even switched on? :)

    6 0 Reply
  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "But if you only use your computer for email, browsing online, some light word processing, and viewing movies or photographs, there's little reason for it, and good reasons not to upgrade"

    Little reason for windows full stop if those are the requirements, I'd much rather be running a lighter Linux variety in that case.

    12 0 Reply
  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A big Thank You to Microsoft

    Dear Microsoft,

    THANK YOU for so generously providing Windows 10 to end users. For free, automatic, it's fantastic. Please keep doing this. You are absolutely right: people didn't know what was good for them.

    Until you demonstrated what was not.

    Please accept our deepest felt thanks.

    Kindest regards,

    All Linux distros, and Apple.

    27 0 Reply
  10. HKmk23
    Facepalm

    Time to look at another opsys?

    I live in a French village of 200 inhabitants, so you can imagine the ratio of Brits....I have already had to rebuild two laptops back to Windows 7 from 10 "upgrades"........so when and if this starts I think I will just hide somewhere...............

    6 1 Reply
    1. regadpellagru
      Reply Icon

      Re: Time to look at another opsys?

      "I live in a French village of 200 inhabitants, so you can imagine the ratio of Brits....I have already had to rebuild two laptops back to Windows 7 from 10 "upgrades"........so when and if this starts I think I will just hide somewhere..............."

      Same, here. I've already told village+dogs & cats that I DON'T DO W10 and W8.

      Everyone is now aware of this weird obsession of mine about 8 and 10, so no-one bothers me ...

      4 1 Reply

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

Forgotten password ?

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like