back to article How Microsoft will cram Windows 10 even harder down your PC's throat early next year

Microsoft will automatically download Windows 10 to millions more PCs in a "recommended" Windows update early next year. The tech giant shows no signs of slowing the rollout of its new operating system, utterly undeterred by the growing public outcry at its pushy attitude. Windows 10 already appears as a free "optional" …

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Re: Linux is working for me.

And it seems to be pot luck whether Adobe Flash content works or not.

Another thing the Clowns of Redmond got wrong. Had W10 completely blocked rubbish like Flash, it would have irritated a few people, but very quickly web sites would have dumped Flash, and it could be consigned more quickly to the rubbish bin of history, where it is slowly (too slowly) heading. In fact, W10 should have been designed to be incompatible with all Adobe software, bar none.

That would have been the biggest single security improvement in Windows history. Instead we get Cortana, and a greater services attack surface, and STILL THE FUCKERS HAVEN'T FIXED THE START MENU.

Out of curiosity, does anybody round here know whether MS monitor blogs, news sites and social media? And if they do, do they simply ignore all the negatives, and then use the (few?) positives to reinforce the bizarre decisions they keep taking?

I can understand that if they did listen to the web, they'd be so depressed they'd get signed off work, so maybe they ignore user views for Health & Safety reasons.

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Re: Linux is working for me.

The problem with Linux is not the core OS, that is POUX - Plain Ole UniX. The problem with Linux for me is the rest. An OS is just a means to run Software and support Hardware, not something important in itself (unless you are an OS programmer). And that is where it is lacking for my needs.

At work I have no choice anyway since company decrees (not that I need one) and it is Windows. Even if given a choice quite a few things would not run (OneNote - no the Apps are NOT the same, local SharePoint, Outlook/Exchange - the only competitor is Notes/Domino, etc)

Privatly I have no choice since needed programs will not run / only run with a lot more effort on Linux. One MAY be able to run Lightroom in WINE - but why spend more effort? There may be a way to run AutoRealm - but the thing is fiddly enough in Windows. And so on

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Re: Linux is working for me.

Thankfully MS was NOT stupid and did NOT follow the brain dead advice to block Flash or other Adobe software!

Since Windows in various versions runs on 92.x percent of the desktops that would quickly result in lawsuits from users AND Adobe. Lawsuits that MS would LOOSE!

So wipe the froth from your moth, stop stomping with your little floppy feet and leave the adults alone, will you?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Linux is working for me.

It depends on which blog you read. On just strictly user/non-tech sites, the sheep love Windows 10 and they defend it to death. (it's FREE) They are happy that M$ routes through all their drives and is acting like a policeman in whether to disable things it thinks it should not be there. They don't seem to understand that privacy is a thing to cherish and are happy that M$ reads all emails and keylogs them for 'an improved' experience (whatever that means). So called experts endorse Windows 10 as the greatest thing ever. The Internet is a really big place where you can find anything or anyone to agree with any nonsense. As there are more morons in the world than intelligent. M$ and their shills are partying all the way to the bank or lawsuits. They know their actions are questionable but are gambling that moronism will prevail.

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Re: Linux is working for me.

I expect you to use IE, in Linux! Seriously install it using winetricks. For the lulz.

Supported hardware should just work in Linux. If you have unsupported hardware that's your fault.

Although sometimes the support is just not configured in a kernel. Kernel configuration, and building can be an adventure sometimes. An adventure I think every Linux user should try someday too.

There is a lot of documentation concerning kernel building. I couldn't point out the definitive work there myself. I'd have to say anyone would benefit by reading a few different takes on the topic before attempting the task themselves.

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Re: Linux is working for me.

Block all Adobe software? But I like Acrobat Reader!

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Re: Linux is working for me.

"Supported hardware should just work in Linux. If you have unsupported hardware that's your fault."

Really? I should have known what MS were going to do when I purchased my computers? How?

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Re: Linux is working for me.

For the last ten years or so I haven't had any need for a homebuilt kernel (Gentoo excluded, obviously); the last one was on a SuSE 7.mumble. This on a variety of desktops and laptops. And even in the case of one particular laptop that needs a 32-bit non-PAE kernel, it's easier doing a minimal install of one distro that provides the right kernel, then topping it off with a related distro that offers the desktop environment best suited to that machine.

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Re: Linux is working for me.

"Windows in various versions runs on 92.x percent of the desktops (blocking flash) would quickly result in lawsuits from users AND Adobe. Lawsuits that MS would LOOSE!"

Microsoft is going to let loose lawsuits against itself??? That would be wonderful because it would save valuable time as we all wait patiently for this completely antiquated organization to systematically self-destruct. So far this process has been agonizingly slow, and we could all benefit by expediting things, and getting the world switched over to an OS that actually cares about the best interest of its users.

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Meh

Microsoft...

Listen Microsoft, Adobe, etc.: Some people just want to purchase a piece of software and use it until it is obsolete or they get sick of it, whether it is an operating system, a piece of Office software, etc. Not everyone wants to or needs to be in constant contact with the mothership, subscribe to something for life just to use it, or be marketed to and thus exchange their freedom to use a device, no matter that it is supposedly "free."

I am grateful to Microsoft for the innovation they have given the world in past years, and I am gainfully employed supporting MS Operating Systems and other products, but when my day is done, I boot up Linux and enjoy it in very much the same way that a weary traveller sick of airports and crowds of bleating sheep comes home and locks his/her doors, stretches out on the couch, and cracks open an adult beverage of whatever suits their predilection. No marketing, no idiocy, no ridiculous attempts to either protect me from myself or try to think for me. (as MS always gets it wrong when they try) No one is telling me "my computer could run faster" (it's already plenty fast without the bloat, thanks), forcing their partners' offerings down my throat, capturing demographic information, and when I launch a web browser or application for example, it comes up nearly instantly, not after a 5-10 second delay and without "Suggested Sites" appearing on my bookmarks bar even after I opted out of it, or some cutesy "First things first" message. And without running a service in the background to make sure I haven't suddenly decided to pirate it in the last half hour.

Oh, and a note about software updates: I click the icon on my freeware (as in speech and beer) Linux OS and it shows me exactly what it's going to do, then does it quickly, without closing any apps, and without any reboot unless it's a kernel update. I try the same on Windows and it laboriously downloads updates, apparently from the slowest server in existence, takes forever to install them, then after a reboot and "Preparing to configure Windows" (I guess preparation is everything), it may actually be usable in another 10-100 minutes, assuming it doesn't decide to do "reverting changes" for a long time, then try again...and again... and again... "Something went wrong." Ugh.

What I really fear is that the world at large is going to be brainwashed into thinking there is no better way than the MS way of waiting forever and being marketed to, and their complacence will leave us all stranded in the mud rut that is Microsoft in 2015.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Microsoft...

Your fear has proven to be true. Brainwashing already happened with a high rate of success.

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Re: Microsoft...

When I first installed and used Linux Mint, over two years ago, I thought that the system update wasn't working properly because it only took about two minutes and didn't insist that I rebooted after it had finished. After that, for a while, I used to watch it in amazement as it downloaded and installed system AND program/application/package updates at what seemed to be incredible speed. I'm never going back.

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Unhappy

Re: Microsoft...

"...and without any reboot unless it's a kernel update. "

Obviously you haven't swapped Pulseaudio <spit> in or out then.

Watch out for Poettering and co, they are trying really hard to turn Linux into a second-rate Windows clone, complete with mandatory reboots.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Microsoft...

"Listen Microsoft, Adobe"

oh, please, we will rant, and they will go their own way of corporations: they say they "listen", but in reality they "hear what you're saying".

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Microsoft...

Shut up. You've convincing me to go back to Linux this weekend.

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FAIL

Re: Microsoft...

> "Watch out for Poettering and co, they are trying really hard to turn Linux into a second-rate Windows clone, complete with mandatory reboots."

Which mandatory reboots are these then? - Archlinux Desktop user (with both systemd + pulseaudio) and frequent updater. My current uptime is 1 week, 1 day, 12 hours, 32 minutes....oh, and the kernel was updated yesterday,...

As for 'second-rate Windows clone. X-windows pre-dates Windows by almost ten years, so I'm tempted to class Windows as a second-rate X-windows clone.

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Re: Microsoft... (new calculator battery required)

X-windows first appeared at MIT in 1984.

Windows 1.0 shipped in November 1985.

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fnj

Re: Microsoft...

<blockquote>Which mandatory reboots are these then? - Archlinux Desktop user (with both systemd + pulseaudio) and frequent updater. My current uptime is 1 week, 1 day, 12 hours, 32 minutes....oh, and the kernel was updated yesterday,...</blockquote>

I use Arch too, but I know what I am doing. If you update to a new kernel and do not reboot, YOU ARE NOT USING THE NEW KERNEL YET. Arch does not hold your hand. You can say it is not mandatory to update after a kernel update, but that strikes me as a bit distorting the point. You can put off rebooting Windows, too.

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"[a]nd soon this will be widened to all machines running a genuine copy of Win 7 and 8.1."

This doesn't apply to pirated copies then? Thank god for small favors.

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I wonder how they tell? Since my Windows 7 install (as well as my parents) are using the Daz Loader, even though both machines are legally licensed for Windows 7 (the shitty OEM version riddled with bloatware) I wonder if it will think they are pirated or legal? Hopefully pirated, if that means they will never get Windows 10 pushed on them!

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This doesn't apply to pirated copies then?

Does this mean I'm better off chucking my legitimate Win7 copies and using pirated copies instead?

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Thanks DougS. Yer blood's worth bottlin' as we say in these parts :-)

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Joke

GENUINE ONLY??

I will be swapping out all my real licenses for Chinese hacked versions (English is available, but only China option for time and location).

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Gimp

Pirated versions still get the upgrade

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Anonymous Coward

> "[a]nd soon this will be widened to all machines running a genuine copy of Win 7 and 8.1."

> This doesn't apply to pirated copies then? Thank god for small favors.

Yeah, my MSWin7 installs (VMs only) are all MSW7 Eval versions hacked to auto-reset the eval, and thankfully I have never seen a popup or fixpack come in to try and move it to MSW10.

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What about tablets? Those 16Gb/32Gb Windows ones that are cheap-as-chips? You seriously going to download 3Gb of crap without asking and then try to install it on a device that you can't boot into any kind of rescue system? Honestly?

There's a reason that I just switch off automatic update programs. That includes Windows Update. If and when I deem a certain update is required, *I* will take a backup, *I* will verify I have a restore path, and *I* will choose which updates and when I will apply them. Because anything else is just a path to device suicide.

As noted above, PC's without the capability to run Windows 10 are being offered the upgrade. What about strange UEFI BIOS etc.? What about encrypted devices with third-party encryption? What about plain-and-simple apps that just don't work on Windows 10 (they exist - I have been specifically advised by two banks and at least three software manufacturers to NOT upgrade to Windows 10 if I want to keep using their services, until they have "fixed incompatibilities and rolled out a verified update"). You honestly think your OS is that infallible that you can guarantee booting, guarantee rollback to previous state, no matter what the user has done with their computer in the years they've been using it? If so, I'm immediately calling you a liar, or an idiot, Microsoft.

A few years ago I would have been rubbing my hands - when I fixed any and all PC's that I was offered, as part of my small business and private work. I moved away from that area of IT for a reason. I just don't do those kinds of things even as favours nowadays - the hassle involved is just not worth it.

But forcibly upgrading people's PC's - even with a confirmation dialog? That's just a recipe for disaster.

Note: Out of the four people who have mentioned Windows 10 in passing to me in work (because I'm the IT guy, obviously), one managed to lose all their files (we assume she clicked the wrong thing somewhere and didn't "upgrade" as much as "wipe out and start again"), another lost four programs that wouldn't run again (and nothing particularly unusual), the third trashed the machine and it wouldn't boot, the fourth ended up with a start menu that crashed every 30 seconds and wanted you to sign out and sign back in to fix it... which took ten minutes and then just crashed again every time (I actually installed Classic Shell for them as there was no other way to revert that one, no restore points, no backups, no backwards path at all, and you couldn't do anything - even recover files - with the start menu crashing constantly. Classic Shell "avoided" the problem as it replaces explorer.exe as the shell, but it still crashes on other users, etc. on the same machine. At least they can get their files off it, though).

This stuff is just not that infallible and - like I explain to my employers whenever they query "why something's gone wrong 'again' ?" - if you have only a 0.1% failure rate with updates, that's between 1 and 2 machines out of action every time you single time you apply an update for a large company. Multiply by the number of updates deployed over the course of a year and nothing would ever work without the homogeneous hardware, the testing, imaging, deployment strategies, etc. that we employ. As it is, the fact that we sometimes have to say "X is not going to work from next year" (e.g. Java/Silverlight in the browser for non-IE browsers, for instance) is frowned upon already.

If that failure rate is critical, like an OS upgrade including complete program migrations and user areas on a personal PC, then the failure rate goes up, and the chances of fixing it plummets. If it's an unannounced, spur-of-the-moment, user-makes-the-decision update, on a personal PC then you aren't even likely to have backups or restore disks anywhere nearby (if at all!).

Just turn this stuff off. Stop using IE. Update your antivirus, browser and firewall software religiously, and ignore everything else. At least if they break, you stand a good chance of just uninstalling and reinstalling just those and keeping a working PC. They are your first lines of defence anyway - if something gets to the point that it can execute code, it's game over because Windows Updates never solve all the problems that are live and affecting the PC anyway.

But, honestly, forcing an OS update this critical and with this many logistical problems (e.g. pre-downloading huge amounts and then just attempting a reboot-install on god-knows-what hardware that you may not even be able to have space to recover, let alone a BIOS you can access), that's just asking to wipe Windows 10 reputation out immediately even if it's not a bad OS. People whinged when an album got pushed to their iPods, what the hell come of comeback were you expecting from forcibly upgrading their Windows?

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If Classic Shell is crashing, you can create a crash dump using these instructions: http://www.classicshell.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6 and post the dump to their forum. The developer is so responsive he will fix the crash in the next version.

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Devil

And I bet there will be reports of the update being pushed again after rollback.

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Nope - Classic Shell did not crash.

Windows explorer.exe / Start Menu did.

I replaced it WITH Classic Shell to fix the problem. It's a horrible bodge, but it worked enough to get data off it.

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We are thankful

From the bottom of our hearts for all that Microsoft has provided for us with their Windows 10 initiative.

Signed:

Mark Shuttleworth

Tim Cook

Hiroshi Lockheimer

Plus many, many computer repair shop owners the World over

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Facepalm

Re: We are thankful

Inevitably said (paraphrased) on any battlefield, anywhere: "For the Gifts We are about to receive, Let Us Be Thankful!"

I see I have a new mission statement. Neutering Windows Updates and applying the updates myself for each and every Windows machine. That's a lot of machines. In the meantime, well it's been, for the most part, nice Microsoft. Even cleaning up the wreckage left strewn about after an update or malware storm was easy, for certain definitions of easy. But I'm going to be like Marvin in Die Hard 2. "I'm not cleaning up this mess."

Aside: Can you picture the lawyers sharks circling Redmond?

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Re: We are thankful

The whole thing is designed by lawyers, in the name of 'monetizing the desktop'. See, if MSFT arrogates to itself the right to POLICE your data per a CODE OF CONDUCT enjoined upon you when you first install Win10 -- and you can't know that, because to read those LICENSE provisions you need a browser into which you can paste aka.ms/msa and read its Paragraph 3 -- if MSFT thus becomes POLICEMAN, it can justify SLURPING ALL YOUR PRIVATE DATA and thus target ads to you.

The lawyers then smack their lips, for the very act of slurping puts MSFT in a litigious position, a) because the disclosure isn't properly done at installation, and b) all third party data on client machines is thus BREACHED into MSFT servers, so any fourth party can now sue MSFT to provide that data in the name of ACCUSATIONS pursuant to Paragraph 3a of aka.ms/msa .

I tried to flesh out the salient legal issues here, http://brainout.net/frankforum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=59

Now, since that's an unavoidably and provably IMMORAL thing MSFT has done, the MSFT fanboys will do all they can to subvert its discovery.

Bear in mind none of those provisions can be legally used by governments. Governments, must have warrants. MSFT is arrogating to itself a power no government has, to unilaterally act as judge, jury, and executioner over your behavior. Which, is slurped by bots.

Sounds like a bad movie, huh. GO READ IT.

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Linux

Re: We are thankful @ Captain DaFt Silver badge

Plus many, many computer repair shop owners the World over

I almost downvoted you for this!

Not because of the massive pre-Christmas rush we are getting (when normally work would be starting to tail off as people plan to spend money on presents for their kids, not fixing the computer the kids broke), but because as I said a wee while ago, I am so sick of cleaning up the mess from this fuckup. I am sick to fucking death of seeing customers who I have come to know and like being upset because their machines are stuffed, and in some cases they're looking at the possibility that their data is gone (yes, they are sadly human and as much as we try to help them over the condition they generally all suffer from dontbackupitis).

But, for the first year in our not-quite-2-years in operation, I can give a holiday bonus to my staff - all because of W10. So you still get the upvote :)

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Re: We are thankful

The "For the gifts..." talk typically starts "St. Barbara be praised!" and is typically given when the enemy starts to throw the big stuff on you.(St. Barbara is, among others, the patron-saint of Artilleryman)

Not that I mind MS bringing out the K5(E)s to shell the Penguins at Anzio...

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Mushroom

Re: We are thankful

Aside: Can you picture the lawyers sharks circling Redmond?

Yep.. One of the greatest joys in my life ATM is watching the flood of shit headed their way.

I'm soooo looking forward to a MS free world! No more crap AV, no more odly trashed systems, no more nice people at the point of tears over MS's latest stuffup.

Don't care if we ever have a "year of the Linux desktop", all I really want is "Day MS dies"

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Re: We are thankful

"Plus many, many computer repair shop owners the World over"

The cyncial side of me says that Microsoft doesn't care a hoot if working systems are wrecked.

In fact they probably hope that it will drive sales of new PCs with Windows 10 preinstalled.

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Linux

Re: We are thankful

I think a more appropriate one would be from dear old Boney

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake

see icon

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Re: We are thankful

That's interesting.aka.ms/msa is also now access denied which joins cia.gov. Guess I'll have to read it in a disposable VM.

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When you're not billing us, you're billing someone else.

I'd rather be your customer, not your merchandise.

GFY.

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It's business as usual at Malwaresoft

When you read Terry Myerson blog he makes it sound like Microsoft will be more transparent about it's updates giving you the option not to install windows 10, if you do and you don't like it you can easily uninstall it. But in a phone interview with Mary Jo Foley and Terry Myerson on 10/29/15 it becomes obvious that it's business as usual. The most interesting paragraph in the interview was this.

"Microsoft is not changing its policy of downloading part of the Windows 10 code proactively to users' machines to make upgrading faster. That behavior will continue, Myerson said. But unless users make the final decision to hit upgrade, Windows 10 will not completely install and replace their existing Windows versions."

I guarantee you the part of Windows 10 code there forcing everyone to download has to do with telemetry, your information and the ability to track you is what they want. I had the same problem on 10/13/15 when my updates settings where change by Microsoft from let me choose which updates to install to install updates automatically. I couldn't remove the updates using the standard windows update removal process and had to use cmd.exe for the removal, oddly enough the telemetry update (KB2952664) took three times. Now I have windows updates turned off and only install updates after I've done considerable research on them.

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Facepalm

"users will be asked if they want to boot into Windows 10"

Such generosity, wow!

Don't worry about:

- Bandwidth

- Download quotas

- HDD space

- Incompatible s/w

- User ability

- Impact on designated support staff (aka: family members, aka: me)

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Re: "users will be asked if they want to boot into Windows 10"

The bastards used up all my mobile data when on a trip to the mainland and half my monthly quota on my FW broadband connection at home. Just spent two weeks shaped to 256 Kb/s instead of the usual 10 Mb/s. The HTPC runs Windows Media Centre; the SW that came with the DVBTV card doesn't run on W7 (or Linux) so it's not likely to run on W10. WMC doesn't exist under W10...

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Unhappy

Re: "users will be asked if they want to boot into Windows 10"

"Just spent two weeks shaped to 256 Kb/s instead of the usual 10 Mb/s."

My heart bleeds for you.

Actually it doesn't, 256Kb/s?

Good God I wish it was as fast as that here!

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Re: "users will be asked if they want to boot into Windows 10"

My heart doesn't bleed (yet), but you have The Git's sympathies and he hears your cry! Not so very long ago, he too was at the very far end of a very thin pipe. Happily, he used the fastest, smallest web browser the Internet has ever seen:

http://offbyone.com/offbyone/

Far from perfect (it doesn't understand HTML4, never mind 5) it does the job on a remarkable number of sites such as The Git frequents. YMMV.

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Pirate

Windows will make your PC purr ( from the Piccy in the article)

Really, My mate has a cat. It basically lays in the corner and does Sweet F.A. When it does decide to do something it craps all over the place then paws kitty litter everywhere. to top it off at random times it will lovingly leave a dead animal in a hidden corner of the house stinking up the place

hmmmm. Come to think of it Nice analogy Microsoft

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Re: Windows will make your PC purr ( from the Piccy in the article)

That's nothing; I used to have a Siamese cat we called Pol Cat because he was a very left-wing cat. Then he became a middle-of-the-road cat which of course meant he became a very flat cat when he was run over by the milkman.

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Re: Windows will make your PC purr ( from the Piccy in the article) @ FozzyBear

If only we could upvote twice..

(Sent from a true cat lover)

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Anonymous Coward

Blue screen of death

I recently updated the Win 7 OS on a notebook. It began frequent BSODs which I fixed by going back to the last restore point. Unfortunately, by the time I got the control panel up it had updated the “fix” again. I got it after a couple of tries, but one change got past my selection of no updates and restarted the BSODs after a week.

Has anyone seen this sort of issue and is it related to incentivizing Win 10?

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Trollface

Hitler would use Windows 10

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Anonymous Coward

"Hitler would use Windows 10"

Yes, but only on those he hated.

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