back to article F1? No, it's Formula E as electric racing cars hit the track

Electric motorsport is finally getting some of the attention given its internal combustion engine brother with the first day of testing of the new Formula E taking place at Donington Park Racing Circuit in Derby. It will be a while before we see an actual race in the UK, though. That’s not going to be until 27 June 2015, and …

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            1. Steve Todd

              Re: Are electric cars really usefull?

              I would contend that nobody actually pays anything like £24k for an Astra, regardless of spec or list price.

              It's not very hard to take the price of the Astra, with options, past £28K. The Beemer may have a list price starting below that, but for that you'll get 4 wheels and an engine. Everything else is an option.

              You chose based in the purchase and running costs NOW, not when the government discovers that there are enough of them on the road to effect their revenue. When there ARE enough of them on the road to have that effect then the economies of mass production will have cut in, and they will be much cheaper to buy.

              The main reason for the congestion charge is to cut pollution levels in Central London, not to do with traffic levels (traffic is actually flowing at the same speed, pretty much, as before the charge as they have introduced traffic calming to slow it down). EVs definitely help there.

              1. James Hughes 1

                FFS

                This was a Jake comment - it's clearly complete shite, and should be simply ignored.

                Have you people learnt NOTHING.

    1. Psyx

      Re: Are electric cars really usefull?

      "Where does the energy come from?"

      It's recycled. All energy is recycled.

      Citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

      "Who has to deal with the pollution involved in production of both parts & energy?"

      The same people who deal with the pollution involved in the production of whatever gadgets and consumer goods you buy.

      "Can I do a 680 mile round-trip in one day? (Me, today, Sonoma to Solvang & back)."

      No, because it's A RACING CAR and isn't road legal.

      Last year's F1 cars also couldn't do a 680 mile road trip, either. I guess those petrol engines haven't been thought out well.

      "What is the cost of recycling once the various bits are b0rked?"

      In line with recycling whatever gadgets and consumer goods you buy.

      The difference is that you don't like this technology, but don't see it as a problem when it applies to <insert favoured consumer goods and/or favourite expensive mass-market entertainment>.

  1. Simon Rockman

    Thank you Formula E

    Now that we have a green racing formula we can stop arsing around with fuel, and fuel-flow limits in F1.

    Anyone who cares that much about being green thinks F1 is an abomination anyway and this is just tokenisim, and F1 fans see it as detracting from "hammer time" proper racing.

    I like cars, all kinds of cars. Electric ones, diesel ones, whatever. I expect I will go to the London Formula E race and am tempted by Monaco.

    Simon

    1. Hans 1

      Re: Thank you Formula E

      I down-voted you because I am a tree-hugger on el'reg, not the only one, but one of a few.

      Now, I do not watch F1 anymore, I used to, but back when Schumi was beating 'em all time and time again, I quit - tooo boring, no real opposition.I have not been back since.

      I predict that electric cars will beat F1 cars in about 10 years, if proper investment takes place - even without recharge on the go. Mainly because when you understand physics, leccy engines simply have superior tech -> no gearbox & very light engines, now you can say what you like, that first single fact means leccy is superior. Leccy batteries need to evolve and will with FE, obviously - that is the ONE reason I do not want to see recharge as you go. A lot of cash will flow in the right direction.

      I like cars ... I have a Porsche Boxter, a Peugeot 106, and a BMW Z3; the Boxter gets little use these days, a ride "round the block" (sort of) to keep it in shape every other week. I do not think tree-hugger means "back to the candle" or other such non-sense. What it does mean, though, is that in general, we should strive for renewable everything (energy, resources, packaging), 100% recycling and shit like that (shit that you do not understand). I have fun in my cars, sure, and I think everyone who can afford it should have cars for fun ... I do not use the Boxter to go to work, I work from home. I would love to get the equivalent Boxter, Z3, 106 leccy with better autonomy than the petrol versions ... that will come.

      If we manage to silence the cretins we will end up having 100% renewable, 100% clean energy, to use and waste as we see fit. Take the sun and moon, and you know what kind of energy I am talking about. Wind is nice, but does not cut it ... too unpredictable. We do not use the moon energy ( we do, but so little of it, it is negligible)

      As for recycling, it is far easier to recycle 100% "anything" but nuclear/fusion waste - I know, I'll get downvotes ... mainly because you have no clue.

      Note on Fusion: I am in direct contact with the blokes over at ITER - as I have already said numerous times - and I know all the ins and outs - He6 is required for clean fusion power and we are nowhere near it. I am often talking to one of the main blokes in the Physics dep, and another in Engineering. If you have questions for them, lemme know. If you think a fusion prototype is gonna work before 10-15 years, you are deluded. I am talking "a prototype that sustains operation over a minute" (the tech is below 5 seconds right now - severely energy negative).

      1. Psyx
        Joke

        Re: Thank you Formula E

        "I like cars ... I have a Porsche Boxter, a Peugeot 106, and a BMW Z3;"

        Wow: A genuine petrol-head. You still like cars *despite* owning a French one and two previously owned by hairdressers! ;)

      2. James Micallef Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Thank you Formula E

        @Hans1 - excellent post, I agree with pretty much everything you say... except this "I predict that electric cars will beat F1 cars in about 10 years". It doesn't matter that electric motors can be simpler and more efficient than ICE, the limiting factor is battery weight + range.

        Firstly, even the best batteries right now have much less energy density than petrol. That means that at efficiency parity, battery cars need to lug around multuple times the battery weight as ICE cars need to lug around in the tank. Even considering lower efficiency of ICE, it still means that the battery weight is going to be many times teh fuel weight.

        Secondly, as fuel is burned in an ICE car the weight is lost and the car gets lighter. The battery car can't just eject spent batteries*, and so has to carry around useless weight for much of the race. Of course the ICE car also has to carry around 'excess' weight compared to the electric in form of heavier engine, transmision and many other components that electric does not need, and of course electric can compensate using KERS-type systems to keep batteries as topped-up as possible... but I don't see that balance tipped within 10 years even with a lot of investment in battery tech.

        Nevertheless, the closer we get the better!

        * Or maybe it can? That would lead to some interesting "wacky races" racing, jettisoning used battery packs in the path of the car following you and/or shooting them at the car in front :)

        1. Psyx

          Re: Thank you Formula E

          ""I predict that electric cars will beat F1 cars in about 10 years". It doesn't matter that electric motors can be simpler and more efficient than ICE, the limiting factor is battery weight + range."

          It depends what you mean by 'faster'.

          Faster over a 200 mile race distance... probably not.

          Faster around a given track, or a given corner, or in a sprint race: Probably.

          Electric cars can sit the weight lower in the car (just put the batteries all over the floor layout, as low as possible), which means better handling. They don't need massive radiators meaning they can be a lot more aerodynamically cleaner, which means less drag and potentially greater downforce. You don't need to get air in and out of an engine, which cleans the aero up even more. On paper at least electric can be faster than ICE.

          Fuel might have a lot more J/kg in it than any battery can dream of carrying, but the bit that converts it to makey-the-wheels-go-round energy is a lot heavier and needs cooling, a gearbox and transmission and a lot of other bits. There's a cross-over distance where the speed of fuel+engineandstuff will be better than speed of battery+motors. For example: A two-mile race would see the F1 car carrying 3L of fuel and the same size engine, while the electric car would have a power unit which weighed less in total.

          1. YetAnotherLocksmith Silver badge

            Re: Thank you Formula E

            No idea which cretin downvoted you.

            Absolutely correct analysis. The only thing that would make it wrong would be charge-as-you-drive. Which might work on a track but it will be hellish in a car you are actually driving, rather than one that trundles along on auto pilot.

            I think of I were forced to drive at 50mph and not even have the ability to change lanes I'd fall asleep - it is bad enough going through the average camera zones!

            1. A Twig

              Re: Thank you Formula E

              Dependant on the rate and efficiency of the wireless charging, they could have an F Zero X style charging lane on the main straight, so drivers have to weigh up the pros and cons of losing some speed on the main straight against the ability to go a couple of laps further?

              Trying to judge if they can make one more lap and maintain their position.

              That'd be awesome seeing the carnage as some drivers on their last few millivolts desperately trying to eke it around the final corner and dive onto the charging zone, while others diving across to the outside to try and overtake them.

    2. Psyx

      Re: Thank you Formula E

      "Now that we have a green racing formula we can stop arsing around with fuel, and fuel-flow limits in F1."

      No we can't. Because car development is the heart of F1, and efficiency is now at the heart of car development.

      1L of fuel weighs down the car to the point where teams don't want to carry it.

      "Anyone who cares that much about being green thinks F1 is an abomination anyway"

      No I don't. But thanks for speaking for me.

      "F1 fans see it as detracting from "hammer time" proper racing."

      No I don't, but thanks for speaking for me.

  2. Simon Rockman

    Oh..

    And the FE cars look a lot better than this year's F1 cars with their ill-thought out safety ideas on nose height. I also like the bigger wheels in FE and it will be interesting to see what comes out of today's F1 tyre tests using 18" wheels.

  3. Matt_payne666

    Its a new sport, Ive grown a little weary of F1 and might give this a look in... hopefully it will get enough coverage and publicity...

    being young and with a one design restriction the racing should be interesting - totally new technology with totally new handling characteristics so it should make for close, unpredictable results...

  4. Alister

    Geography!

    Donington Park Racing Circuit in Derby.

    Umm, nope, it's in Leicestershire...

    Ok, it might have a DE postcode, but by no stretch of the imagination could you call it "In Derby"

    1. itzman

      Re: Geography!

      Its in neither. Its in the East Midlands region of the administrative area of the the United kingdom - part of the greater European Socialist Republic.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Geography! - Hang on a minute....

        "part of the greater European Socialist Republic"

        European Socialist Republic = ESR

        ESR = Eric S Raymond.

        I smell conspiracy of enormous magnitude.

        All we need know is a Republic of Merry Socialists and the circumstantial evidence would be overwhelming.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This is the sort of thing needed to drive forward the performance of electric cars in terms of efficiency and battery life.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Finally some chance of seeing who's actually the best driver

    Because what we have today in F1 is pretty simple: fastest car wins. In current F1 It is way more exciting to watch a poor car in a top ace driver's hands -such as Alonso with Ferrary- battling better performing cars -such as Vettel with Red Bull- than to follow who's going to win the race, because you know in advance that the answer is "Mercedes", either with Hamilton or Rosberg.

    And even this year we are lucky, Mercedes is allowing its two drivers to actually battle instead of Red Bull's "Vettel comes first" that we've had for the last four years.

    What has bee lost long ago is the "Formula" in F1. The design of the cars has so many constraints that innovation is severely restricted. I'm afraid but E1 will be the same once they break out of the "everybody drives the same car"

    The "Formula" should restrict what can affect safety of the drivers, mechanics or spectators, and nothing else. Give freedom to engineers, mechanics and drivers and it will be way, way more interesting.

    1. Psyx

      Re: Finally some chance of seeing who's actually the best driver

      "Because what we have today in F1 is pretty simple: fastest car wins."

      Can you let me know at what point F1 wasn't about having a fast, competitive car?

      "Alonso with Ferrary"

      Pray share more of your great wisdom and expertise.

      "instead of Red Bull's "Vettel comes first" that we've had for the last four years."

      Vittel was a better driver than Webber. That's why Vittel won more.

      (That and Webber is the prince of bad luck)

      "The design of the cars has so many constraints that innovation is severely restricted."

      Except that when someone innovates and comes up with a race-winning innovation [blown diffusers, or the length-of-engine turbo axle that's giving Mercedes the edge on power output this year]... you don't like it because the fastest car wins! Make your mind up: what do you want?

      "I'm afraid but E1 will be the same once they break out of the "everybody drives the same car"

      The "Formula" should restrict what can affect safety of the drivers, mechanics or spectators, and nothing else. Give freedom to engineers, mechanics and drivers and it will be way, way more interesting."

      Again, you're contradicting yourself: Do you want it to be more about the drivers, or more about development?

  7. Firefox

    Don't underestimate the noise

    I was at the Silverstone qualifying sessions on Saturday. I have to say that I was disappointed by the noise of the new engines.

    The hype, glamour, incidents, weather, results all go together to make a great experience but I can remember the first time I heard an F1 car - Race of Champions inside Wembley Stadium it was immence - I don't remember who was driving, they weren't racing but if they had have been, I wouldn't have remembered who won or how pretty the girls were when the trophies were being handed out ...but I can remember the noise like it was yesterday.

    The screaming engines leave a very powerful sensory memory, I think current F1 will regret the changes that they've inadvertantly made to the sound of F1 in the long term and I think Fomula E will fail to tempt away the bulk of F1 fans especially if, like me, they are already feeling sensory deprivation from the current F1.

    1. Hairy Spod

      Re: Don't underestimate the noise

      Disagree totally about the noise.

      The sound of last years V8's were not a patch on the mega high revving V10's and to be honest both were too loud and detracted from my F1 experiences. I really like the whine of the turbos and engine recovery systems and prefer the overall lower volume of the current engines.

      I do not need ear damage to enjoy my music or my motor racing, just enough sound to give me a clue about what (and how) each of the cars are doing

      The best sounding race cars I have heard to date were at Le Mans in 2012 and they were the quietest diesels which make an amazing pod-racer esk wub wub wub wub sound as they passed. Much quieter and much cooler sounding than the petrol cars on the track. I expect that I would also learn to love the sound of the electrics too.

      1. Psyx

        Re: Don't underestimate the noise

        Agreed. The previous engines had a tiny power band and were being run at ridiculously high revs; basically being wrung like a 16 year old with a 50cc motorbike. It wasn't a nice sound, and they had no torque outside the high rev range.

        The new engines have grunt. You can hear what they're doing and they sound more powerful. I can hear what the tyres and brakes are doing now, too. And what drivers are actually saying.

        Sure: They could have turned up the master volume on the track-side mics earlier in the season and Bernie kicked up a fuss, but Bernie is a dinosaur whose ideas about what makes a good race are based firmly on how many million a host nation is going to pay him.

        You couldn't stand within a hundred yards of the old cars without earplugs in. People watching TV are complaining, but I think they might change their mind if made to sit next to a track without ear protection for two hours!

  8. SW
    Joke

    Phnaar alert

    Shame that Qualcomm used a 2009 registered pair of vehicles for their promo video - a 2006 motor would have provided even more snickering.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    open wheels?

    If they really wanted to push electric cars, I think it would have been better to do a closed wheel formula and make the cars much less draggy. Open wheel racing is a bit of an anachronism really, it only persists in F1 because the rules require it. F1 cars have a horrendous drag coefficient, wheels, struts, etc. and complex wings to give downforce because of the regulations on diffusers and shaped floors.

    Open-wheel racing is a throwback to the days before aerodynamics really took over, where open wheel cars were lighter as a result of having less bodywork.

    It seems the aim has been to make the cars look like F1 cars, whereas they really could have made this a far more relevant series by focusing on design aspects that will make cars more efficient in every respect.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's all about sales

    Formula E is all about trying to convince people that they should purchase impractical EVs which are worthless for anything other than city use. Considering electricity isn't free nor are replacement batteries EVs are not a good choice for 99.999999999999 % of society, despite the sales hype.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's all about sales

      I would think EVs are a great fit for society, given that it's ideal for city use, which happens to be the most common mode of car use.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Changing batteries? Changing Cars?

    They could have thought of changing batteries a la Tesla, by screwing it under the car as a honking plate, instead of changing the whole car.

    Even the pit-stops could specialize in changing the batteries just as fast they change tires today. And perhaps bring back the sparking chassis days of yore. Maybe make it more dangerous, by removing liquid cooling and letting the batteries run almost to a fiery ending and explode or melt like those poor iPhones and Sonys of yesteryear, in the name of making them more power-dense and lighter.

    The excitement of F1 was always in pushing the limits; how far could they push the batteries before they leak, explode or burst into flames? It would surely bring (back) the excitement. There is even room for strategies matching pretty much tire strategy, such as using a heavier battery and make more laps, a smaller battery and less laps, or using 3 sets of batteries instead of 2, the list of ideas goes on and on.

    I'm honestly in favor of Formula E, but I think it should always have a technological progression incentive, anything that can improve the street-legal leccy' car situation.

  12. Stevie

    Bah!

    About ten miles from my house is a place that has a Kart loop in the basement in which one may race around on surprisingly nippy electric Karts. It has been there for years.

    So: Not new, not clever.

    1. James Hughes 1

      Re: Bah!

      Except....this is full size cars, which are quite clever.

      So 0 from 2. Well done.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Recycling...

    "perhaps the most interesting technology in the video here is that which causes someone to get into a car as a young woman and get out as an older man."

    Now, if they can just get it to work the other way around... we can start recycling the over-abundant resource of grumpy old men into something a bit more useful! ;)

  14. 31nst31n

    No Noise...???

    Silent Cars..... what a fantastic opportunity...?

    Why throw in an MP3 player and a couple of very powerful speakers... then chose the POD RACER sound that you want for your car... I Bag-see Sebulba's... then I could shake the bones from the bodies of my opponents..

    1. 4ecks
      Megaphone

      Re: No Noise...???

      oooh, me wants the sound of a RR Merlin, with a touch of the Avro Vulcan howl for the overtake button, and speakers that go up 11!

  15. Morat

    Wipeout!!

    Did anyone else get a throwback to Wipeout 2097?

    Time to look up "Atom Bomb" by Fluke.. it's in the folder somewhere :)

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