Ex-CIA techie Edward Snowden: I am the NSA PRISM deepthroat A former CIA technician has broken cover to reveal himself as the mole who leaked information about PRISM - the US government's massive web surveillance programme. Edward Snowden, 29, outed himself as the source of revelations that the National Security Agency (NSA) has tapped up American internet giants for data on foreigners …
... it is easier to record everything and then analyse it later?
Just think of all the hassle of having to record this from that making sure it is the person named in the "intercept order/instruction".
It just seems far, far, far easier to record everyfink then analyse later?
No?
Yes, obviously it's easier. It would also be easier for the police to slash the murder rate in half by instituting a rigidly enforced curfew on anyone not currently at or on their way to work. The reason we don't do that is that the point of the law is not to make life easy for the authorities. Quite the opposite.
Nope, it was policy. The IRA wanted it to be a war UK gov did not want it as a war as it would lend legitamacy to the IRA.
So it was a policy of ignore the terrorists and starve them of the extra publicity.
Yes always amazed at the change of policy from the IRA days to today.
Back then it was a day or two of outrage in the press then all back to normal. No one panicked, no one said we should live in fear, just carry on and ignore it as best you can.
I think that method was far more preferable. This is why I have always felt this change of policy has little to do with actually defending us from terrorists. It's more about legitimising snooping and restrictions on liberty for average citizens.
Odd that all during the Cold War we were kind of under the impression that our Governments felt the old Soviet way was the wrong way but probably in secret they were very envious of what the Soviet regime had created.
> So it was a policy of ignore the terrorists
Nonsense, they were monitored, infiltrated, and frequently stopped before they did anything. Sometimes at the last minute, because the police needed evidence that they were doing something so had to wait to catch them red-handed (an inappropriate phrase in the circumstances, I suppose) .
They weren't ignored, just dealt with without theatre, while people got on with their lives.
in a way, I believe that's what happened. The IRA spent the best part of 20 years bombing the population of the UK, who in that time did absolutely nothing whatsoever to indicate they had any interest in the problem.
I started Uni, sharing with an Irish chap in 1984. The Grand Hotel bombing happened, and he pointed out that a week later - as usual - absolutely no one had asked him anything about "the troubles".
The same will happen with Islamic terrorists. The great British Public will simply astound them with their total and utter lack of desire to learn anything about their "cause".
Willful, pigheaded ignorance - that's how we will beat them.
Is it controversial if I say that the US has never been a champion of freedom and democracy in most people's minds, more a champion of a higher standard of living and the prospect of huge portions of food, which to many people around the world, for many years, was/is still an ideal. As for America being the champion of democracy...this is like saying that Rome was the champion of democracy, and that when it invaded your region and slaughtered everybody in your town, this was being done for democracy. It wasn't, but it brought a certain standard of living which many people found very appealing, with the promise of bigger portions of food, which to many people around the world at the time, was an ideal.
Yes the US government system wasn't actually created to "get stuff done for the common man".
It was to keep power to the land owning/trading elite. Something it still does very well today. Basically Democrat or Republican, the corporate/1% agenda carries on regardless.
After all, what can the average American do? Come next election, vote Republican?
Yeah...okayyyyyyyy
However, it is much the same in most western 'democracies' now. All the parties have been bought and paid for.
I really don't know how we can change it. It's rigged very heavily against us.
@jason 7
Re: "I really don't know how we can change it. It's rigged very heavily against us."
It is. However, we have things that they do not have: numbers and legal justification. I am quite certain that the lower courts, at least in Ontario, are pretty good still. We do still have the ability to speak right now. We should not give it all up without a fight. Eventually, more people will join the fray.
our current version of Echelon is maybe a lot more inclusive and caring and sharing. The European Parliament did issue a half-hearted report on Echelon in the 1990's. Then Europe seemed to go suspiciously quiet, as though maybe it was invited to join the information stealing party. Pure speculation on my part based upon silence and reading of stuff here http://database.statewatch.org/article.asp?aid=2771
(The Statewatch website mentioned changes over the years to the Commission 1995 Directive on data protection and the Commission 1997 Directive on personal data and privacy - which did have strong protection and a strong case-law - and are now possibly weaker...?)
Note also that Statewatch has had some 'fun' in the past with various EU governments misplacing presumably not-important documents and notes on exactly this telecoms interception matter, http://database.statewatch.org/article.asp?aid=6626
What this guy has done seems rather closer to the spirit and letter of the US constitution than the actions of those who run systems such as Prism - "against all enemies, foreign and domestic" seems especially apt. That he's put his hand up to it and stood behind his actions publicly makes it all the more admirable.
Obama's "modest encroachment" on privacy seems almost written to be countered by Franklins "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety", while William Hague's advisors must have misunderstood 1984 when they penned his "nothing to fear" line this week - I don't think I've ever heard something quite so chillingly put.
No doubt there'll be plenty queueing up to denounce what Edward Snowden has done, in the same way they queued up to character assassinate Bradley Manning, Julian Assange and a long, long list of others down the years. But while it's easy enough to see the arguments as to why such actions can be seen as a betrayal, it's becoming harder to write the betrayers off as cranks and narcissists when what they reveal should anger us far, far more deeply than it seems to do. The supposed 'democracy' we have becomes more of an illusion with every illiberal government programme revealed, with sows ears turned into silk purses by the PR industry, government policy along with our privacy and so-called freedom sold to the highest bidder without further discussion. The downward spiralling freedom we have starts to look a lot more like the freedom of cattle than the liberty of Franklin and his cronies.
If the mass of public opinion is really delusional enough to swallow the spin and seriously conclude that Edward Snowden is the villain of this piece, we're fucked.
".....we're fucked." So how exactly are you "fucked" by any of this? In fact, how is any of the paranoid sheeple bleating on here in any way, shape or form personally affected by even the worst exaggerations made about PRISM? You aren't, so please go get a grip and do something useful instead of wasting bandwidth.
"...... We are fucked because there are so many who think as you." You mean you are fucked because there are people that have actually gotten out in the World, got a sense of perspective, and don't get all their views fed to them by Indymedia or Oprah, and will tell you when you are talking out of your rectum. Enjoy!
I have a sense of perspective - perhaps better than yours Matt. I don't watch Oprah, BGT, The Voice, XF etc.
And yet this stills seems, to me, to be a invasion of privacy, and the start of a slippery slope that it will be quite difficult to get off. Not sure what to do about it either.
Can I suggest Matt, that instead of insulting people with your comments, you actually think about things before you post. I mean REALLY think about them. Think things through, assess the consequences (which could be good or bad). Try thinking outside the box, past the press releases. Seems to me (and it is just my opinion, which I am sure you will feel entitled to insult) that you are using insulting arguments to make you point, rather than coherent arguments.
"I have a sense of perspective...." Well congratulations to you, now all you have to work on is the idea that you may have to accept other people may have experiences that lead them to a different perspective. Some of them are going to have a lot more experience. Merely insisting that you have exclusive access to a perspective is not going to convicne anyone without a little meat to your arguments, and currently you're barely serving up soya.
"......perhaps better than yours.....and the start of a slippery slope....." And there's the point that blows a massive hole in your bigheadedness - some of us have been debating this klind of stuff for almost forty years and we weren't even the first to start discussing it. Pull up a chair, junior, this ain't the start of the slope in any way at all. This isn't even the main slope, this is just a little off-piste action. You may have noticed that the US didn't collapse into some form of fascist dictatorship forty years ago and - sorry to ruin your apocalyptical fantasy - it won't now.
".....you actually think about things before you post. I mean REALLY think about them.....rather than coherent arguments....." Well, thanks for your kind concern, Jimmy, but please don't be too offended when I suggest you are not the only one with the sole ability to think. Unless you have something new to add to the conversation, and you do seem to be just as short of actual arguments as the rest of the sheeple, just insisting the sky is falling is not going to impress. Do try harder.
I am personally limited by the PRISM and related activities. I can't tell you how I'm limited, but I am.
PRISM by its very existence is destroying democracy by not allowing many world societies to ever change. It has the potential to lock the society at the current level.
The PRISM technologies are used, including using the PRISM APIs, by every tin-pot dictator and undemocratic monster out there - Iran, Syria Russia, all the 'stans (inclusing those that boil people alive) etc
PRISM type technology allows targetting individuals, communities, by keyword searches in a database. It allows 3am boot-down-doors, it allows more subtle denial of renewal of housing benefit to category X (who PRISM knows are its enemies) it allows bad things to be done by not necessarily the current US government but by a future more sinister one, it allows these bad things to be done by any state that implements PRISM technologies, which last time I checked was most worldwide states from Netherlands to Malawi for gods sake.
"I am personally limited by the PRISM and related activities....." Hmmm, and the proof of that is..... "..... I can't tell you how I'm limited, but I am....." Yeah. That's a bit like the black guys that claim they can never get a job 'cos all white people are racist, innit.
".....PRISM by its very existence is destroying democracy by not allowing many world societies to ever change....." How? Please do supply some actual proof of the dastardly machinations of PRISM, otherwise we might be left susepcting it is nothing more then melodramatic bleating.
".....The PRISM technologies are used, including using the PRISM APIs, by every tin-pot dictator and undemocratic monster out there - Iran, Syria Russia...." LOL! As if the NSA would be sharing any surveillance tech with Iran, Syria or even Russia! What complete cobblers.
".....PRISM type technology....." Oh, so it's not actually PRISM, it's other peoples' code that is in no way related to PRISM but does a similar job in your view? So you're trying to blame the US for all the surveillance capabilities of all the dictators in the World? OK, I think your credibility didn't just hit zero, it went negative.
New sheeple, please!
I actually have difficulty conceiving of a more sinister one than currently occupies the WH and the Senate, but then all you socialists told me I was suppose to like the Hope and Change he was bringing to the world.
I could conceivably support a PRISM like data mining operation target only at terrorists with protections for average people. It might or might not actually have those protections but since it is secret we can't know that. The problem is that I look at Benghazi, James Rosen, the AP wiretapping, Fast and Furious, and the IRS vs TEA Party scandal and find that I can't believe anything the people who ought to know the details of these things are saying. And I can't believe they will refuse to use that data mining for oppression of their political enemies as opposed to the terrorists trying to kill us. The whole thing with continuing to classify the Ft. Hood shooting as "workplace violence" instead of the obvious terrorist attack that it was doesn't help matters. Neither does the FBI shooting the associate of the Boston Bomber when they found him in Florida. For as much as I expect that after detention and questioning (and still 60/40 on whether the whole trial/military tribunal thing would have been necessary) I would have wanted him up against the wall for the firing squad, there is something terribly unseemly about the way that went down. Almost like they knew more and didn't want a chance on something else damaging leaking out. And I really don't like having to entertain those kinds of thoughts about my government.
No, it was not terrorism, any more than the Boston Bombing or the murder of the soldier in the UK the other week was. It was no more terrorism than any event involving a nutter with a gun/knife/van/pressure cooker/can of petrol killing lots of people in a house/school/on the streets.
The number of things attributed to terrorism needs to be reduced, not multiplied. Terrorism is rare, and not worth making a fuss about.
TWAT is a never ending made-up war. It can't be won. Not even with all civil liberties wiped out.. Surveillance culture is here to stay... Because that's how the TWATS in the US elite view our world. I wish I could persuade the powers that be to stop... Convince them that it will never work. But what are the chances they'd listen? The sacrifices imposed on citizens liberties will always be greater than the return on terrorists stopped. Plus, always using Terror as the bottom line excuse for shifting control is nothing more than the pursuit of tyrannical power. But we Americans are blind and can't see this... It is our 1984!
I have to laugh at how many Asians and South Americans and even middle easterners that I meet who aspire to live in the US. They have no idea. Only the elites get looked after in America. You can graft, but if you're not smart enough, talented enough, rich enough or corrupt enough, it'll be a challenge. The average person paying forty-grand a year for college to get a head start faces 'nothing good'. Matters are compounded by the fact that students cannot write off student debt in bankruptcy should they fail to find work after graduating. How many folks aspiring to be Americans understand these hidden pitfalls?
America feeds itself on debt and debt can be a form of slavery. Meanwhile a huge proportion of income taxes disappear on the defence budget. What about $ to ensure ones city or neighbourhood is safe? How long can this game keep going? How long can the US keep printing dollars to pay for its excesses? At some point we will surely move to a basket of currencies and the US dollar will become marginalized. By then China's ascent will be assured. Does that mean that we'll all be working for China, as the banned 'Citizens Against Government Waste' Ad on YouTube posits? Perhaps! The Ad is thought provoking...
If you Fall Down in America expect little help from the Fed. Whereas if you're a TBTF bank or the Car Industry expect to get a free hand-out every time. This type of socialist capitalism is brutally unfair! It is killing family life stone dead. I see impoverished families in many other parts of the world living happier. With dwindling resources, economic costs of climate change, and cronyist capitalism, I don't ever see the US returning to its former glory... Not in real terms. Sorry if this makes for uncomfortable reading! But big investors including Jim Rogers and deep thinkers such as Taleb preach this gospel nearly every day!
"TWAT is a never ending made-up war. It can't be won...." I would suggest 9/11 and many other terror attacks were not "made-up". As to whether it can be "won" is a debateable point - you cannot stop an idea, but you can make it unpopular to the point where it is unfeasible for those that think it to continue. You are correct in that TWAT cannot be won, but then the best strategy for terror is containment. Covincing Abdul the jihadi he is better off by just forgetting his plans for a global Islamic caliphate and instead getting a job and raising a family is what we should be aiming for. As an example, you could say the Brits never "defeated" the IRA, but - through a drawn-out strategy of grinding down the IRA's resources and will to continue - the IRA decided to negotiate and everyone eventually won.
"....The sacrifices imposed on citizens liberties will always be greater than the return on terrorists stopped......" Complete cobblers. For a start, you would need some means of comparing the "pain" introduced by reductions in liberties versus the "saving" from stopping terror attacks. Do I value my email privacy more than the life of a victim of a terror attack? How about if the victim is someone close to me? It was very hard to justify the expense and reduction in liberties of the British campaign against the IRA in Northern Ireland whilst it was ongoing, but people in Belfast will tell you they are glad it was done as they now value the peace.
Simply pretending terrorism will go away if we do nothing is worse than sticking your head in the sand.
"I would suggest 9/11 and many other terror attacks were not "made-up"
...You've made my point for me. Even with all the billions, plus all the warning signs, we missed both events, and now we're going to add even more billions to this 'Burn After Reading' farce? For how long? Until we're bankrupt as a country fiscally and morally? You're making assumptions that boosting these intelligence systems will achieve something. Yet all the increased funding after 9/11 didn't prevent Boston. They failed because their emotional intelligence systems failed . They screened one of the bombers but let him back in despite being warned. If anything they need to boost old-school intelligence methods instead of broad spying.
"Simply pretending terrorism will go away if we do nothing is worse than sticking your head in the sand."
I was talking about quality of life in America, in particular family life. Maybe you missed my point? Terror is about creating fear rather than the number of casualties. How many of us on US soil are actually in direct danger from a terror attack as opposed to the affects of crime in our cities? In short, where is the real threat to the average America today? At least half my fiends and family have been victims of gun violence. Sadly, a few were shot and killed. All of us were living in middle class neighbourhoods. We're the richest country in the world, so how is this possible? For starters police forces in many sates have been decimated by cut-backs. Moreover, its far too easy to get access to guns. The stats don't lie, the average person is more likely to be shot or killed in a hold-up than affected by Terrorism.... You are buying into the fear or a shill from DC!
Everyone point to "evil government" but as far as rational analysis goes everything points to companies like Google, Yahoo! and Microsoft setting up some internal servers for NSA to tap into any requestion information (easier than sending it with express mail I suppose).
So NSA, the White House AND all major ISP's and solution providers are all together out to invade your privacy with this scheme! Perhaps you can't vote in another government but you can change all the services and proxies you're using pretty easily. And that's where our response should lie, not for the government to fix it or undo anything but for the people to become smarter!
Dear Reg, I feel the need to point out that you in turn need to point out that James Clapper (or Lieutenant General James Clapper as he was previously known) is a military man through and through. Not that this should ordinarily be a problem for ordinary Americans. After all having someone like him in his position as string-puller-in-chief of the NSA is no doubt a great benefit to foreign intelligence gathering. Sadly it's not just foreign intelligence they've been gathering and what we're really looking at with James Clapper is the face of the American military spluttering with rage because it has been caught red-handed spying on Americans.
... Churchill wrote and John McGuinness and Michael Dunlop spoke:
We have surmounted all the perils and endured all the agonies of the past. We shall provide against and thus prevail over the dangers and problems of the future, withhold no sacrifice, grudge no toil, seek no sordid gain, fear no foe. All will be well. We have, I believe, within us the life-strength and guiding light by which the tormented world around us may find the harbour of safety, after a storm-beaten voyage.
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
H. L. Mencken
But now the government has been unmasked as the biggest hobgoblin of all.
Whatever are we to do?!
<headless chicken dance... ooh, ooh, Mister Peevly >
Has anyone else noticed that the US & UK are using each other as the legal vehicle for this. Both are saying they can legally watch other countries' communications, as it's illegal to infringe the privacy of their own nationals.
BOTH are saying this, and in the same speeches, saying how naturally if any concerns arise from each other's monitoring, they would share such information pursuant to the 'special relationship'. Rest of Europe are NOT happy at all about this, and I can see serious political conseqences.
I mean, how on earth can we have any legitimacy, throughout NATO, G8, and the security council and have the audacity to lecture the rest of the world on censorship and human rights.
What with the whole lobbying scandal in the UK, the economic raping by the banks, the US political system; the inescapable conclusion is that our countries are governed and underpinned by nothing more than self-serving, corrupted criminals. Same with Russia, but at least they're quite open about the fact, and do not hesitate to chase their domestic opposition around the world with hit squads.
However much they control this in the media at the moment, history will recall this scandal as a shocking act by our generation.
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