Re: Amazon is not evil
Very good point. Many of the more obscure DVD's I've purchased have come from Amazon marketplace (I guess many people wouldn't even realise). Although I do hope Amazon don't abuse the fees structure in the same way Ebay do.
Amazon-bashed HMV calls in administrators, seeks buyer
HMV sought insolvency protection last night, becoming the second big name retailer on the battered British High Street to come close to defeat in the first few weeks of 2013. This comes after the music retail giant spent several years struggling to turn its business around as customers have increasingly shifted to shopping …
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 12:13 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Amazon is not evil
"Amazon provides these small businesses with a way to reach a huge audience."
'The web provides these small businesses with a way to reach a huge audience.'
There, FTFY.
If you seriously believe that amazon provides a service that the rest of the internet doesn't then either you work for the company of you've got its Kool Aid on an intrevenous drip.
As for amazon not being evil , no it isn't, but it is a highly competetive foreign company that has no problem with selling popular CDs, DVDs and books products at cost price or even a loss specifically to capture market share from other retailers and eventually lead them to go bust.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 12:36 GMT Piro
Re: Amazon is not evil
Sorry, but the web does not provide a guaranteed audience - the idea that you can just put up a website and hope your business will be immediately noticed is not really true:- The web is absolutely full of noise, and people like to check retailers they already feel comfortable with.
Yes, of course it's possible to survive without the help of other businesses, naturally, but clearly these businesses feel Amazon is helping them, otherwise they wouldn't trade with them. It's more than possible that a satisfied customer would deal with the company directly later.
No, I don't work for them, no, I don't believe they're providing a service that couldn't otherwise exist. I'm simply pointing out that "Amazon" isn't just one American monolith, putting everyone in the UK out of business - which seems to be the opinion of the masses.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 12:56 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Amazon is not evil
"the idea that you can just put up a website and hope your business will be immediately noticed is not really true:-"
Hmm, odd, it seems to have work for amazon.
Sure, it won't get noticed immediately but thats why getting yourself into a good position on a search engine is paramount and if you're in a niche industry then that shouldn't be too hard as there won't be much competition.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 13:36 GMT lset
Re: Amazon is not evil
You can buy a decent position on a search engine.
You can't buy trust.
People are happier to buy items from a smaller retailer through the Amazon marketplace because they trust the feedback system on Amazon and how the marketplace is vetted. This is the same reason why places like ebay and etsy exist. People trust the Amazon 'brand' and so trust to buy things through their marketplace. People should set up their own websites etc. but to say that Amazon doesn't offer a service that the internet in and of itself doesn't already provide is incorrect.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 13:19 GMT Greg J Preece
Re: Amazon is not evil
If you seriously believe that amazon provides a service that the rest of the internet doesn't then either you work for the company of you've got its Kool Aid on an intrevenous drip.
And the chances of your tiny company managing to get above Amazon in the product rankings on Google to get the attention in the first place? Amazon lets them be a searchable part of what is undoubtedly one of the largest product catalogues online. Set up your own tiny website with OSCommerce (because all small businesses know how to do that and can afford it) and see if you can get those customers as easily.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 12:30 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Amazon is not evil
Amazon is not evil currently.
However, now it appears they're going to have a complete monopoly on physical sales of non-chart music/films, then what is going to stop them squeezing either the music industry or consumers who still want that physical media?
Amazon could easily become evil.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 12:54 GMT Jedit
"HMV was too expensive to survive"
Honestly, there is no need for further analysis beyond this. HMV have been selling their core products - CDs, DVDs and Blu-rays - at RRP. That's rendered them uncompetitive not only with online retailers but with every other remaining physical retailer as well. I could walk into my local independent music store and get The Wall Immersion Edition for £99 if I wanted it, while 100 yards away HMV are still asking the full £120.
When a chain store isn't able to compete on price with a single-outlet small business in the same town, you know there is mismanagement at work.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 13:06 GMT Keep Refrigerated
Re: "HMV was too expensive to survive"
I saw the writing on the wall 10 years ago, in fact my only surprise is that they've lasted so long. I was just in a HMV the other day (browsing only) with the OH and remarked "These guys will be the next to go..."
I gave up on HMV (at that time) when I wanted an old TV series box set priced at £19.99. Since it was near Christmas I thought I'd wait for the sales. Said sales came and a new sticker was on the box "RRP £39.99 / Sale: £19.99". I cannot stand deceptive marketing and would prefer they just didn't call it a "Sale" at all.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 11:42 GMT Wibble
Their market just isn't there...
An old-(business)-school SWOT test would show that there's very few Opportunities on the high street as the Tech has moved on. Alas the days of browsing in the crusty old record shop for some gem has well and truly gone. People download now and massive conglomerates (Amazon) or specialists deliver physical media.
People just don't buy albums any more. A store full of chart-bound shite just isn't interesting, especially as the price reflects the higher costs of providing the retail space.
Sad that the management team didn't embrace the web much earlier; in essence that's what did them in the end.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 11:43 GMT Phil E Succour
What a shame
I feel for the employees whose jobs are under threat from this development, I hope they are able to find new work.
Sadly though the writing has been on the wall for some time. High street retailers who concentrate on one are of the market like HMV and Jessops have really had the rug pulled from under their feet over the past few years. Locked into long leases on some of the stores with no flexibility when times are hard has meant they are just not agile enough.
The strongest high street retailers seem to be those who have product lines crossing many categories such as department stores - perhaps that model is the best hope for the future?
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 12:04 GMT David Evans
Re: What a shame
"The strongest high street retailers seem to be those who have product lines crossing many categories such as department stores - perhaps that model is the best hope for the future?"
This has been the received wisdom amongst corporate strategy people for at least a decade; you can only survive as a specialist retailer if you have unique product not available elsewhere; if you sell a commodity you can't cross-subsidise margins so you've got nowhere to go when a multi-category retailer undercuts you (Amazon and Tesco work on single digit margins so can take the hit that a specialist can't). Problem is that with the rise of Amazon, more and more products become commodities even when they might not have been in the past (which is why some premium brands will only sell through their own channels), good for customer value, but maybe not so good for the retail "ecosystem".
We're heading for an age of much reduced choice in retail (which in the long run hurts the department stores as well; fewer reasons to go to the high street), and unless landlords have a major rethink about rents, whole categories of products are going to disappear from the high street altogether; in fact it may be too late even if there is a big rent correction.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 22:25 GMT graeme leggett
Re: What a shame
A commentator on the radio said that chains like HMV, JJ Sports, Comet gave a chance at employment experience in retail for those who didn't come out of school with high grades or go on to university.
One advantage that independent department stores may have is that being long established businesses they own the premises and therefore lease/rent on the shopfloor is effectively just internal accounting rather than a drain on the income
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 11:47 GMT wowfood
the digital era
I remember manymoons ago when I was but a teen, (a decade) when out local town was bustling, we had a music store, DVD store, PC store, game, gamestation. Now all that's left is one game store, why?
Because the highstreet can't keep up with digital. Years ago we had no choice, DVDs all cost £20 everywhere, an album cost just as much same for a game.
Nowadays rather than paying £20 for an album you can download it on itunes, or better yet rather than paying extra for filler songs nobody lieks you can buy the individual tracks you want. There aren't any portable CD players, and most people seem to backup their CDs to the PC anyway, CDs are a dying medium they've gone the way of the casette.
DVDs are in a similar fold, why spend £20 for a brand new DVD when you can get it for £15 online, or better still rent it from lovefilm for free (well £5 a month) lets face it, most people buy DVDs and watch them once or twice, lovefilm is a far better option in terms of price / what you get.
Videogames are the same, £50 rrp for a brand new game, you can get that same game online for £40, or you can rent it for the cost of £5 a month with lovefilm.
I don't think it's so much that these businesses are being wiped out by e-tailers. It's more that they haven't kept up with the times. HMV was doing the equivalent of selling casettes and VHS at above average prices, of course it died out. They failed to keep up with the trends and it shot them in the foot.
I just wish we got better stores to replace the ones we lost. My town center is now a mixture of clothes stores, cafes, 2nd hand shops and mobile phone stores. Nothing else. I no longer have any reason to go into town, we have nothing I want to buy. Sure I need clothes, but every clothes store in town bar 2 sell only womens clothes, the other 2 are burtons and peacocks.
We're living in a digital era, and almost every digital item will wind up being distributed online. What towns need are smaller independant specialty stores, music, electronics, things you really want to have a look around yourself and find what's right for you. But these stores aren't constant earners, they're normally either trickle sales or big sales every few months. And thanks to the boom of retail stores last decade, and the rise of property values you can't leasea shop and hope to turn a profit these days.
Alas, this has turned into a rant but I'll post it anyway, sad to see HMV go, but not unexpected. I see PC world following in the next year or so.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 12:04 GMT This Side Up
Re: the digital era
The digital era began in the early 80s as far as audio was concerned. The problem with HMV, Virgin/Xavvi and others was that they continued to run large stores with thousands of prepackaged CDs and DVDs. They should have slimmed down. The technology was there to burn discs on demand and print the artwork. They could have provided downloads to customers' iPods, flash drives, memory cards etc. Browsing could be done using screens with search and sampling facilities. You could even have had "make your own album". All this would take up a tenth of the space and eliminate most of the warehousing and transport costs - they would only need blank media.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 13:06 GMT Ben 56
Re: the digital era
WHSmith did this for many years in the late 80s early 90s - the system was called EDOS and you chose from a (regularly published in-store) catalogue the game you wanted, on Amiga, Atari, C64 Spectrum, disks or tapes it didn't matter. There was a big duplicator machine in the back that would have all of these games on a CD it used to burn from. Obviously it never took off and the material looks a lot like pirate blanks (albeit with an official box). Obviously there would be even less differentiation these days!
Here's the best article I could find on EDOS, sadly there isn't too much info on the (once reasonably popular) system.
http://forum.defence-force.org/viewtopic.php?t=815&p=7319
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 13:23 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: the digital era
I worked for Virgin and they *did* offer close to what you're suggesting, as far back as 2000 / 2001.
I worked for V Shop, which was essentially the Our Price relaunch with the digital generation in mind. Virgin saw it coming right then. There were at least two touch-screen two kiosks in each store, that had two functions:
1) Allow purchase and download of MP3s that could be transferred to a USB drive you could plug right in
2) Order any back catalogue title (DVD, CD, VHS) and have it posted to you. It was essentially online shopping with hand-holding in an age when a lot of customers were really unsure about it. The approach was strategic too, as it was their answer to cutting down on catalogue stock in-store - something HMV would go on to remove and pad out with gadgets.
One of the reasons I was employed was because no-one really even had the foggiest what an MP3 was, let alone how one might use it.
The problem? It was too much for a lot of consumer's minds back then. Just wasn't in the air. While the kiosk back catalogue ordering did well, the MP3 downloads - never sold a single one. MP3 players went unsold and it wasn't for want of trying or lack of sales support. Consumers just couldn't get their heads around music downloads - remember, this was in the days of the Creative Jukebox and Rio players, which were essentially the preserve of the tech-savvy and definitely not mass-market in the way fruit-derived devices are now.
You're right - I believe HMV should have offered these services. But I do wonder if the relative failure of the V Shop concept troubled them - I can't believe they weren't watching us at the time.
I firmly believe the concept wasn't the problem - it was the timing. However, when just about everyone got broadband in tandem with the availability of iTunes, et al, the in-store download concept would have withered on the vine as well.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 12:10 GMT I like noodles
Re: the digital era
"better yet rather than paying extra for filler songs nobody lieks you can buy the individual tracks you want"
Therein lies something that saddens me - one of the problems of being able to pick and choose your download tracks.
Very often (in fact, more often than not), I grow tired of the "individual tracks I want" pretty quickly, and grow to develop a long-term love for some of those "extra filler songs nobody likes"
Added to that, a decent band with a good producer can get "flow" into an album that simply doesn't exist when tracks are ommitted (or it's on shuffle)
I'm sure I can't be alone in this.
Off on a tangent I know, so to add something on HMV - not that sad to see them go really. Overpriced and destroyed my local record shops. Biter bit, although I empathise with the staff right now.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 12:52 GMT wowfood
Re: the digital era
The only time I've ever had albums with flow to them thathas been recongizable is metal. When I was refering to the lack of worthwhile tracks I was talking about the pop / rap / dubstep rubbish, there's often one or two tracks I might like, but the rest are just tat. (my opinion here, not fact)
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 13:07 GMT John Sanders
Re: the digital era
Recording companies and their made-up 'hits' killed the albums.
Recording companies began favouring the idea of predictable incomes, (increased spending on marketing and manufactured 'artists') rather than spending money on producing decent albums with unpredictable risky income behaviour. We invest 10 million to bag 50 million.
This obviously forces them to publish music based on how wider an audience can be for that type of music, regarding of the quality, so they can maximize profit.
In my case that is why the only music I buy lately is Soundtracks from video games and movies.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 13:44 GMT What of IT?
Re: the digital era
Agreed, try listening to any Pink Floyd album on shuffle and it totally ruins it. These albums and many more by other great artists tell a story. Some newer artists employ this tactic too, but it goes to waste on the shuffle brigade most of the time.... Shuffle is for those who love NOW albums.
Sad to see HMV go, but it was a bit shit in my opinion and has been for at least 10 years. Last good record shop I went in was Syd Scarborough under Hull City Hall, now that was a sweet experience in the basement flicking through old vinyl! You can't hit shuffle when an LP is playing.
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Wednesday 16th January 2013 13:12 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: the digital era
Added to that, a decent band with a good producer can get "flow" into an album that simply doesn't exist when tracks are ommitted (or it's on shuffle)
Totally agree with this - sadly, the vast majority of "modern" music isnt produced with this in mind.
Rather than go to the cost and trouble of getting a good producer to make an album that is a pleasure to listen to from start to finish, it seems a lot of music has become a simple collection of tracks with no consistency between each one - designed to be bought individually or played on shuffle.
Madness like this is, unfortunately, driven by the customer allowing it.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 11:48 GMT Andrew Moore
Was in before Christmas...
Their prices were terrible. I was able to buy one item a lot cheaper from another bricks-and-mortar store that was on the same floor of the mall as HMV. I also tried to find (and failed) a CD (Oblivion by Grimes if you are interested). I gave up and bought it on play.com instead.
I'm all for supporting traditional shops, but not when they want to stick a saddle on you and ride you around the store.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 11:48 GMT ukgnome
If only they listened to the consumer
Although they probably couldn't hear them and "youth" music was always blaring out. And as for the layout, what a load of tosh.
It is no loss to me that this store has gone under, it was hard to tell what the customer demographic was. Was it for the youth that had no expendable income or was it for the 40 somethings? I suspect they wanted to be all things to all men but had some seriously bad advice.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 11:49 GMT Richard Wharram
Browsing
The USP HMV had over supermarkets and the like was a large back-catalogue to browse through. Unfortunately that's been completely undermined by online retailers where you don't have to browse, you can search. From home.
A pincer movement of market developments has left HMV with nothing to offer.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 11:49 GMT Jason Hindle
And once again, gift cards are not being honoured
Bankruptcy law really needs shaking up with respect to gift cards and pre ordered items. This is money already spent with the company and it should be possible to exchange it for goods of the same value.
With Jessops in particular, I'm hearing stories of people turning up to collect pre ordered (and pre paid for goods) only to be told to sod off, even when the goods had been delivered to the premises. It's all pretty shoddy, especially when you consider both HMV and Jessops were selling gift vouchers pretty much up to the point they called in the administrators.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 11:55 GMT Piro
Re: And once again, gift cards are not being honoured
To be fair, gift vouchers are a stupid idea anyway - a way of being an investor with no return and no guarantee on the value of the card.
Basically a massive con foisted on the public by the shops as a way to pad their coffers to provide bigger profit reports at certain times of year - somehow they've convinced people that giving each other a potentially worthless piece of paper is more acceptable than just giving them the money instead.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 11:55 GMT wowfood
Re: And once again, gift cards are not being honoured
Y'see that's the point I'd just sit in the store, with my recipt that's been paid for and threaten to call in the police if they don't hand over MY goods. They're paid for. I don't care if legally they don't need to hand them over, I'll be that douche who refuses to leave the premisis until I get the item, or get dragged off by the police.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 20:56 GMT jonathanb
Re: And once again, gift cards are not being honoured
Legally once the warehouse man (or woman) goes to the shelf with the picklist (it might be on a handheld computer, doesn't matter) and lifts the goods of the shelf, they are legally yours and they must give your them. If they have not been picked off the shelf when they go bust, then they are not yours, and they don't have to give you them.
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Wednesday 16th January 2013 13:17 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: And once again, gift cards are not being honoured
Legally once the warehouse man (or woman) goes to the shelf with the picklist (it might be on a handheld computer, doesn't matter) and lifts the goods of the shelf, they are legally yours and they must give your them.
Are you sure about this? I cant seem to find it in the Sale of Goods act?
Purchase transactions are rarely as clearly cut as you make out here.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 14:19 GMT ChrisC
Re: And once again, gift cards are not being honoured
True, but as a former employee of a small company (8 full time employees) which went into administration 3 years ago, and for which the administrative process continues to plod along at a pace so slow it would be insulting to glaciers to describe it as glacial, I do have to wonder just how much value for money the creditors get out of administrators. Especially when you read the annual reports they send out, do the sums on the outstanding assets vs administrator expenses, and realise that by the time the whole process is concluded, the only people who'll have got anywhere near what they're owed are the administrators themselves...
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 12:57 GMT wowfood
Re: Rents and rates
We have 2 subwys now, which is hilarious since you can walk from one to the other in less than 20 minutes (town is tiny) sad part is with have 2 delis, and they make amazing sandwiches. But they're both in dead zones. One is in a backstreet most people don't even know about, and the other is next to a shopping center which is all but dead. Why don't they move to the highstreet? Too expensive, but subwey can afford it since they sell crap at moderate prices. rather than these two which sell quality at moderate prices.
On the bright side though, the local butcher started selling burgers / hotdogs / bacon rolls using all local produce, and we now have a burger resteraunt open up which also uses only local produce. I just hope the trend continues.
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Tuesday 15th January 2013 19:24 GMT DrXym
Re: Rents and rates
I don't mind Subway sandwiches but neither do I think they represent good value for money so I can see why a local bakery / deli could still enjoy good business even if one parked itself next door. There's a deli in Dublin called Pig and Heifer not far from an O'Briens sandwiches, Subway and Bagel Bar and I would walk past all of these for a chicken paddy sandwich.
Biggest issue with Subway IMO is it doesn't matter what you order, it all tastes the damned same. Some of the staff can be fantastically annoying when it comes to selling up the order too.
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Biting the hand that feeds IT
