back to article I just LOVE Server 2012, but count me out on Windows 8 for now

Overall, I think Windows 8 is a truly wonderful operating system. The under-the-hood changes make it a fantastic improvement over Windows 7. I am completely in love with Server 2012; I can't imagine the next few years without it. Despite being in love with the technology underpinning Windows 8, I ultimately have to walk away …

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      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: Now here's an idea

        Actually, Microsoft have serveral research projects underway to make Windows more modular. The question is simply "do they ever see the light of day." That depends entirely on how much "status quo" they manage to ship, methinks.

  1. Donald Miller
    IT Angle

    Touchy screens

    How many consoles currently have touch screens? How many managers will spring for the number needed to efficiently run your server farm? How many will you have to repair each month?

    And how many of the current ones have drivers that will work with Win8? How about drivers for your current-but-actually-6-year-old video cards? Yes, I know the touch part is HID compliant, but do you want to work in VGA mode?

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Form over Function.

    One problem here is I think only 'power users' really appreciate the importance of function over form, whereas there is a lot of money in selling badly functioning but pretty products to end users.

    Reminds me of Gnome 3/Shell, that was also a big step backwards for desktop users, and whilst it cannot prompt the exodus that did, I will not be purchasing Windows 8 or recommending it to others.

    Glad there was a trial, so I didn't waste my money!

  3. Steve Knox
    Trollface

    "since Netscape, when has Microsoft actively tried to prevent applications from working?"

    From what I've seen, I'd say they've been pretty active trying to prevent Microsoft Office from working...

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: "since Netscape, when has Microsoft actively tried to prevent applications from working?"

      That is a whole other story. Microsoft is a little pile of warring fiefdoms...

  4. Tom B
    Thumb Down

    Been There, Rejected That Already

    I work pretty heavily in both the Linux and Windows universe, and I've seen all this "Metro" stuff before, in both Gnome-3 and Unity (those are two tablet-style User Interface designs similar to Microsoft's). I've been working in computers for over 30 years, and I know what makes me productive. The tablet interfaces may be fine on a touch-tablet, but they are unacceptable on a 30-inch non-touch-enabled system such as the one I use to work and play. And no, I will not change the way I work just so someone else can make money selling tablets and mobile phones. The sales challenges of Microsoft and Cannonical are *not* my problem.

    I happen to think that Windows 8 has some wonderful features, and is a terriffic improvement over Windows 7, if only Microsoft would allow me to drop Metro completely, and continue working the way I want. I use a large monitor and normally work with at least four windows at once (some of which contain different virtual machines or remote desktops), so even the 33/66 sizing is a loser. It's clear that Microsoft wants us all to move over to Metro, so it can discontinue the Desktop interface completely. While I can understand the reasoning there, I refuse to go along with it. That's one "Game for Windows" I refuse to play.

  5. Luther Blissett

    Here is how to get rid of the "Metro" design and return to the old-fashioned desktop

    Set RPEnabled in HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer from 1 to 0...

    So...

    add "RPEnabled"=dword:0

    Auto set (DISABLE Metro) (save as ".reg" file):

    REGEDIT4

    [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer]

    "RPEnabled"=dword:0

    Set to "dword:1" to enable again

    [h/t Tim Dolbear of Magix]

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: Here is how to get rid of the "Metro" design and return to the old-fashioned desktop

      Must try this...

    2. Peter W.

      Re: Here is how to get rid of the "Metro" design and return to the old-fashioned desktop

      Luther,

      That hack doesn't function in the RTM builds (tried in both HKEY_CURRENT_USER and HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE). As I recall, this was the hack that only worked in the earliest beta builds of Windows 8.

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: Here is how to get rid of the "Metro" design and return to the old-fashioned desktop

        I concur; this doesn't work on my RTM VMs or physical system.

  6. Big_Boomer Silver badge
    FAIL

    Resistance is Futile!

    You WILL be assimilated!

    Well, that seems to be what MS believe. Personally I avoided Vista at work, although I had a home PC that came with it, so I upgraded straight from XP to Win7 (and Vista to WIn7 at home) because it worked and made my life easier. Win8 looks like making my life more difficult, so MS can whistle if they think I'm spending money on it. If they don't make Win8 or it's successor "IT Dept" useful then I guess it will be a flavour of Linux that we use next.

    I have a Win8 install running in VirtualBox and with some tweaks I have managed to solve the screen res issues and now have my Start menu back (thanks Classic Menu) and it's useable. BUT, it's slow, clunky and I seem to spend half my life having to find ways around things. It reminds me of Vista/2008 out-of-the-box security settings. Intrusive and counterproductive. I'm sure some people will buy it and it'll get it's own little user "faction" just like Windows 7 Phone and Palm got, but Android/iOS levels of market penetration? Nah!

  7. Mr Anonymous

    Productive work

    "With months of use, I've learned to beat the OS into submission." As opposed to just using a familiar and easy to use OS?

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: Productive work

      I get paid to know the latest OS. That way when my clients start deploying, I'm ready.

      1. Mr Anonymous

        Re: Productive work

        I didn't say you weren't, but most employees are paid to be productive on behalf of their employers and are not paid to decipher Microsoft's latest idea of what an Operating System should look like or the new random location of an oft used menu item.

  8. Someone Else Silver badge
    Thumb Up

    Can I get an "Amen"?

    Ultimately the reason I'm walking away because what I need from a computer is not what Microsoft wants computers to become.

    Amen!

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Agree largely, but...

    What about when more of our devices go touch. I mean, everyone's gonna have touch screen *everything* coming when this drops aren't they?

    Serious question Trevor, and all those who rue the multi input model MS has adopted here. What if your monster PC screen was touch. Does that/ will that change people's opinions?

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: Agree largely, but...

      Let me answer a question with a labratory test.

      Hold you arms in front of you for 8 hours and make wild jesticulations. When you feel you can do this from 9-5 every single day, you're ready to use Windows 8 on the magical touch screen replacement of my 17" + 2x24" + 47" monitor setup.

      Please try holding your arms out in front of you for 8 hours. Just for one day.

      You'll have my answer when the excercise is completed.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Hold you arms in front of you for 8 hours and make wild jesticulations.

        Rave on, TPott, put your hands in the air like you just don't care. Aciiiiiid!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Pint

        Re: Agree largely, but...

        Touch screens for desktops will force users to position them almost horizontal as the "natural" position to avoid fatigue. Many professions using writing or drawing adopted that position in the olden days of pen and ink. The next advance will have to be some sort of "nano" coating to make screen cleaning unnecessary or easier.

      3. EtonBears

        Re: Agree largely, but...

        This is exactly why it is nonsense for an OS to consider a desktop as remotely similar to a tablet.

        For some people and some purposes tablets ( possibly with a bluetooth keyboard ) are ideal, and possibly much better than a laptop.

        But if you convert the desktop by angling the screen so it can be used for gestures more comfortably, then it becomes a largely look-down device. You would end up with users leaning over their device in a sort of hunched position, which would be something of a nightmare for those trying to ensure good ergonomics!

        Maybe someone will come up with a "new" PC design that works well with a touch-screen, but I cant think that it would actually confer any significant advantages, even if they did.

    2. Paul Shirley

      Re: Agree largely, but...

      My next monitor will get me back up to a 3 display setup. It really doesn't matter if it's touch enabled, the 2 existing ones aren't. Touch isn't going to work well in that mix and those monitors have many years life left in them.

      ...and I also can't imagine actually reaching out to touch my displays - all need leaning to reach all edges. Microsoft can expect class action suits when the 1st RSI cases go public.

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Agree largely, but...

      Related, but I expect Windows 8 support for portrait <-> landscape monitor rotation is just as poor as all previous versions of Windows, even though it is attempting to replicate the tablet experience ...

  10. tempemeaty

    Trevor Pott, you pegged it...or should I say pinned...

    Trevor Pott, sir, you have hit every one of my concerns that I've had about Windows 8 to the point anything I say would be redundant. In other words you pegged it. Thank you.

  11. Richard Altmann
    Unhappy

    by o u dy

    "Given the decades-long lifespan of some applications - particularly those licensed at $50,000 or more per seat "

    For another $k 5 they will offer you an update ( just to go with the times) and a new contract. All this big system suppliers are only waiting for the next OS so they can sell "update kits" to their clients. The "New Version" of the app is then released halfway through the lifespan of the OS. So, u by o u dy while on the (not so)far horizons the next OS threatens to arise.

  12. whoelse

    Amen

    I found Metro horrendous, and it was too much work to work around it. Maybe I'll have to in a few years time, but for now I'm hoping that the lack of enterprise pick-up shows MS that they have to separate touch and power user. Unless docked touch screen devices become suitable as laptop replacements, then it makes no sense. I'd rather use View to get a VM on the device than try to mix both.

    Time will tell what the best alternative is, but maybe 8 sp1 will change things back some!

  13. TRT Silver badge

    Talking about Enterprise users...

    Picard, tongue sticking out of side of mouth... "Gah! Picard to Data. Data, can you come in here and help me with this damned PAD, please?"

    Data (enters) "Captain?"

    Picard "Ah, Data. I'm trying to launch the ship's fuel consumption app, but it keeps coming up in windowed mode."

    Data "That is correct, Captain."

    etc etc etc.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Metro for business?

    I cannot imagine how reasonable sized businesses with a fairly traditional model can consider pushing this kind of major UI revision on front-end users.

    Consider a retail banking institution: Customer-facing staff use low-spec XP machines. Their keyboards have integrated card-swipes and function keys mapped to the most frequently used transactions. Time and money have been spent to ensure that they don't need to take their hands off the keyboard to use the mouse.

    Now try to sell me the Metro 'experience': Will throughput improve? Quality? Or what?

    The problem is that MS have their own agenda, driven mainly by internal politics, and have lost sight of what their business is: They don't have a VISION to push on me or anyone else, it's not their place! They build stuff people want or they go out of business. Get the fuck back in your box and produce what people want; try to tell them what they want and watch your precious corporation fall by the wayside.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Metro for business?

      Well as micro/small businesses tend not to have volume license agreements etc. etc., and so pick up machines and software as needed from the retail/wholesale channels. These users are likely to come face-to-face with the reality of Windows 8 in a business context sooner rather than later; as based on previous releases Microsoft will want the channel to be cleared of Windows 7 (before Christmas ?) so that it doesn't get in the way of Windows 8 sales.

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: Metro for business?

        Which is exactly why I have been buying up as many Windows 7 licences as I possibly can. My clients will be demanding them.

  15. William Hinshaw
    FAIL

    Win 8 is crash and burn even worse that MS Bob

    So far I feel like I'm wrestling with a greased hog. There is just no getting it to work the way I want without installing some 3rd party shell. That and the fact that there seems to be trouble hooking Windows 8 systems in to AD where I work and it is definitely a no go. I have it installed on a laptop and have had a few people try to work it and they just give me a confused look on how to do some basic things like where is the start button or how do I shut it down, there are so many things that just don't work the way they used to that are too many to list here but are basic functions. SO far I'm very irritated with the released product. I had hoped that changes would have been made to at least give you the option to flip to the old interface but it isn't going to be an option and that right there is going to kill it deader than dead here.

  16. Spotswood
    Thumb Down

    Lost me....

    at " I admit that I don't have a Windows touch device of my own to play with"

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    What are the "under the hood changes that make it a fantastic improvement over Windows 7"?

    If you are going to make that your first sentence, you need to back it up since it sounds like something Steve Ballmer would say. Where's the proof, because I'm not aware of anything major under the hood that 8 does differently than 7 that would make anyone want to abandon 7 unless they needed the touch screen support.

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: What are the "under the hood changes that make it a fantastic improvement over Windows 7"?

      Off the top of my head, this is what's in Windows 8 worth considering making the jump for:

      1) Faster boot

      2) Faster shutdown

      3) Better hybrid resume support

      4) Way - way - fewer IOPS in VDI mode.

      5) Native USB 3 support makes me happy

      6) Multimonitor support that is on par with the ATI widget in the CCC from ten or so years ago

      7) Mobile broadband as a "first class" networking type. (Long time coming.)

      8) Hyper-V

      Obviously, they weren't enough to entice me, but they might be for others. From a raw tech side, Win 8 is a solid upgrade. It is critical if you are a VDI implementer.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: What are the "under the hood changes that make it a fantastic improvement over Windows 7"?

        The question that immediately comes to mind looking at this list is which of these aren't already available for XP or 7 either from Microsoft or via third-parties, or could of been implemented in a Service/Feature Pack? and hence Microsoft have made a commercial decision on which release to include improvements in rather than a technical decision.

        Also I'm surprised that a feature is made of native USB3 and mobile broadband support, as to me these are similar to SATA and WiFi in XP. Which given the lack of other announcements would seem to indicate that the entire device and network driver model is still broken. If it were not Microsoft would be selling how extendable and future proof these are so that any third-party will be able to write an LTE driver, for example, that can slot in as a "first class" networking type, similarly with other connectivity. (Aside: expect a fantastic improvement of Windows 9 over Windows 8 to be LTE as a "first class" networking type, along with faster boot, faster shutdown ...)

      2. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: What are the "under the hood changes that make it a fantastic improvement over Windows 7"?

        Adding (negatively) to this list, as just been exploring something.

        It would seem that Windows 8 does not include native support for either the Common Unix Printing System (CUPS) or more narrowly the Apple AirPrint service that uses CUPS. So to either let an iOS device use a Windows printer or to let a Windows 8 device use an AirPrint enabled printer, you will need a third-party driver.

  18. W. Anderson

    Windows Love?

    I nor anyone else can competently evaluate Microsoft's new Windows 8 desktop as in Trevor Pott's assessment, since the final product has not yet shipped, and pre-releases don't count.

    It is also bewildering as to his "Love of Windows Server 2012", when he has not, and probably cannot clearly and fully describe details of what exactly are the differences and benefits between versions 2012 and 2008 R2, as well as technical differences (and/or any advantages) between Windows 2012 Server and latest Redhat Enterprise Linux 6.3 Server or even FreeBSD 9.0 Server configuration.

    For weeks I have soliticted such information from Microsoft, Mary Jo Foley at ZDNet - who is supposedly a confidant of Microsoft's technical elite inner circle, or any other Microsoft propagandist on earth.

    I do know that Windows Server 2012 is priced by CDW Distributors at $840+ "per core", making the costs for a dual CPU, quad core Xeon system for 20 users at $30.00 per client access license totalling approximately $7,320.00.

    This is a ridiculous amount of money to pay for an Operating System software that does not perform anywhere near as well as those competitors mentioned above in critical and important metrics as "reliability, security, flexibility, scalability " or (as shown) return on Investment (ROI). Comparable RedHat or FreeBSD software would be less than $1000.00 - with support ad significantly more functionality.

    If Trevor Potts loves 2012 server, then he loves mediocrity.

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge
      Pint

      Re: Windows Love?

      Um...WTF are you talking about?

      WIndows 8 RTM was in our hands ages ago. Just becuase you don't have a retail box doesn't mean you can't download the RTM. Let me help you out a little here:

      Windows 8 RTM: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/jj554510.aspx

      Server 2012 RTM: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/hh670538.aspx

      Also there's no S in my last name. Thanks for playing, though next time Google before ranting. Cheers!

    2. ScottK
      Facepalm

      Re: Windows Love?

      Windows 2012 is priced per processor, not per core. One processor licence covers you for 2 physical CPUs.

      http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/server-cloud/windows-server/buy.aspx

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oh god, save us from...

    Another Trevor Pott 'opinion piece'.

    Hey Trevor, I understand that you are deeply hurt and resentful that MS did not give you an invite for any of the Surface launch events. I also understand how deeply wounding to your ego it must be that they do not appear to be ‘listening to you as a power user’ or that they will not sign up for any of the ‘binding commitments’ you request in your overly lengthy diatribe.

    However, the reason for all of the above is that they probably feel your opinion adds nothing to the debate. You have just rehashed the same old, same old stuff that always gets said every time a new version of Windows gets released. Nasty UI, old versions better, not going to use it, blah blah blah. Go look on Neowin for yesterday’s article about Windows haters. It says it all. You are just running with the usual herd of sheeple, saying the same old stuff, making the same old (often factually incorrect) points. You are questing; it seems, for the adulation and admiration of about twenty linux lovers who read a third tier technology website. That is your choice

    You seem surprised that MS are ‘not taking you seriously’ yet you have zero understanding of the commercial aspects of running a large software business and the considerations that are important when releasing a product aimed at consumers. So what that you choose not to use Win8? I choose not to drive a Ferrari but I do not spout articles all over the internet saying why I took that decision.

    Seriously, do us all a favour and stop posting these articles. The world realises that you do not like Win8. You will eventually end up using it, but hey, that is the irony of the whole situation.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Oh god, save us from...

      another anonymous dickhead poster claiming to know better than everyone else but scared to put any name to his comments.

      Yes, I always reply anon to anonymous dickhead posters. Goose sauce.

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: Oh god, save us from...

      Aw, muffin! Did I hurt your feelers? Do you need a time out to have a manly cry in the corner? That's okay, we won't watch...at least not until it's done uploading to YouTube.

      I understand that you have incorporated your favourite brand into your personal concept of "tribe." It's normal; it's natural! There's a lot of good science that explains the process; you shouldn't be ashamed that it occurs, only that you allow it to rule your interactions with the rest of the world. It's okay, there's still hope. If you visit a proper therapist, one day you'll be able to disassociate your sense of self worth from the products other people choose to use and advocate. You may be able to live a life where you only tie your sense of personal valuation to the products you personally choose to use!

      It may be difficult for you to understand – but please try, I'm having my minions work up a colour-by-numbers book just for you – but I don't have any moral or ethical obligation to push your favourite products on the world. I don't have any moral or ethical obligation to tell people to do what "the majority" does, nor to stick with the status quo merely because it's the status quo.

      If you want someone who will advocate Microsoft, teach you how to incorporate all things Microsoft into your life and otherwise champion the status quo over all comers, please don't read my articles. Instead, I heartily recommend the indomitable Peter Bright at Ars Technica. He's a far better writer than I, and completely, utterly infatuated with Microsoft.

      You'll also like Ed Bott, so completely "on-message" that he just declared Windows 8 to be the new Windows XP. You should also follow The Register's own Tim Anderson on his personal blog.

      These are the people you need to read. They will tell you things you want to hear. They will comfort you on a cold, CVE-2013-XXXX night. These are members of your tribe.

      Whatever you do, do not under any circumstances read Mary Jo Foely, and for your own sanity don't read anything by me. You'll find my blogs clearly labelled. They say sysadmin blog. You don't even have to click. It is, in fact, your choice.

      Until you can disconnect your sense of identity from the brands you have incorporated into your tribe, you need to avoid authors that raise your blood pressure. It's for your own health and safety, after all.

      Cheers, and good night.

  20. PeterM42
    Pirate

    This article is SPOT ON

    ...I think Microsoft are suffering from Alzheimer's or some similar mental degeneration.

    If they implemented most of the recommendations in the article, it would be brilliant, but I cannot see it happening. Ballmer doesn't have the brains to see the problems like Gates did. He is just a salesman.

    Port Android to Intel platforms big time and Microsoft will be heading for the graveyard.

  21. durbans
    Facepalm

    Get on with it and get over yourselves

    Don't like it? Don't use it then...I find it absolutely incredible (and quite amusing) to see how much time people spend moaning and being ignorant about something which they have no intention of using anyway. I understand the concept of liking one thing more than another, for example personally I love Jammie Dodgers. But I'd never be ignorant or stupid enough to say that Party Rings are the worst biscuit in the world and shouldn't be sold because they are not offering me the biscuit I want. The world does not revolve around me, so unfortunately I've got to live with all the other choices of biscuits given to me. Which is lucky, because even though I don't like them, if there were no other biscuit manufacturers then Jammie Dodgers could charge whatever they liked for their biscuits. And I'd front the cash, because I freakin' LOVE Jammie Dodgers.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm guilty of moaning about things too. But not about the fact that a product I wasn't planning on using isn't built exactly like I'd want it to be. That's what I'd call a waste of time.

    On topic though, It's funny how people are calling Win8 another Vista. Vista was slow, clunky and had serious security issues which also affected usability. Windows 8 is the fastest Microsoft OS ever, is incredibly secure, and has implemented new features which some users don't like. Hardly a case for comparison there. And that is fact.

  22. Mark Leaver
    Thumb Down

    End of the day

    I build my own desktops and I never buy off the shelf systems unless it is for the company that I am working for. And with that in mind, I wont be upgrading from Windows 7 any time soon and when I eventually have to (IE: I buy a laptop that comes with Windows 8 installed) then I will be looking at moving to a *nix based operating system.

    I have had a quick peek at Metro and I am not that impressed with it for the enterprise environment.

    I think that Ballmer is pushing Microsoft into the grave with this attempt to get into the mobile market.

    and @durbans... ever since Microsoft nailed their networking stack onto the side of windows, their operating systems have never been secure.

    1. durbans

      Re: End of the day

      Once again....no proof, just your opinion.

      http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/mac-versus-windows-vulnerability-stats-for-2007/758

      Quite an old article as it doesn't even include Windows 7 vunerabilities (and it is common knowledge that Win7 is much more secure than any previous Win OS), however you can clearly see that OSX (a *nix derivative) had more vunerabilites identified per month than XP + Vista.

      I will check this articles comments tomorrow to see if you can provide any proof to back up your claim.

  23. durbans
    Trollface

    And finally...

    For those who like to say that the Modern UI is confusing and users will never figure it out...

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57536828-71/windows-8-is-easy-ask-this-3-year-old/

    Although as the article says, you do require half a brain to figure out how a UI works.

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Faster horses

    "If I asked my customers what they wanted they'd have told me 'faster horses'"

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Thrown under a bus? Hyperbole much?

    With Win7 being supported until at least 2020, it's more like being thrown under the road roller from A Fish Called Wanda. Are your feet stuck in fresh cement?

  26. supatall
    FAIL

    Agree with Trevor ...and I paid for it

    I agree with Trevor. I bought the new version, (as a DVD) installed it and regretted it. It's now going back for a refund.

    The problems are myriad.

    It rendered my 6 month old, Core i5, Asus laptop running Win 7 HP useless. The install routine removes wifi drivers and did not replace them. There is no support from MS for this. Intel do have an update scanner that doesn't work with Win 8. (I spoke to 2 different MS operatives about this. The second said that they are inundated with support calls 'cos Win 8 is taking out drivers and strangely, IE10 not working(!) It no longer recognised my dvd drive. There is no access to BIOS on boot (F8). To get to safe boot, you have to set this as a boot option. Once you've finished with safe boot, you have to turn it off again otherwise you are stuck in a safe boot loop. It stopped accessing laptop restore (F9). The Metro interface is a disaster. For working on a laptop/pc it is useless. On a phone, it would be fine. Programs are presented across 6 screens so it is a frustrating exercise trying to find things. There is no option to change Metro to give a sensible single screen, alphabetical listing of programs. The right hand flyout bar has a mind of it's own. Sometimes it'll shoot out at the merest hint of a pointer. Other times you bash against the right for minutes before it'll come out of hiding.

    If you do install, install as a dual boot boot system so at least you can go back to Win 7 easily. Once I finally managed to get to my system restore image drive I went straight back to Win 7.

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