Re: Metro On the DT is CRAP !
I just realised that this is not exactly good marketing for Excel either, if that's how they have done that projection :)
Like Thelma and Louise, executives at Microsoft's Windows division have no doubts about which direction they want to point the car. It's pedal to the floor, and over the cliff as fast as they can drive. Last week the latest Windows 8 public preview confirmed what many had expected and feared: there will be no compromise on the …
I just realised that this is not exactly good marketing for Excel either, if that's how they have done that projection :)
Andrew you hit the nail right on the head. Microsoft is stuck in reactive mode and cannot get out of it. They are trying to emulate Apple instead of actually thinking about what they are doing due to terror of lost market share.
MS loses market share every time they do stupid things like Vista and Metro but they are too stupid to recognize their own shortcomings or learn from the past mistakes.
Their corporate culture has been one of "Yes Men" and "Emperors New Clothes" for as long as I can remember. No wonder they cannot be the operating system leaders they once were.
They have no real leadership or vision other than that offered by the likes of monkey boy Ballmer.
"No wonder they cannot be the operating system leaders they once were."
They never were...
What you meant is: Micros~1 is not that good at competing is it?
I can see why MS are desperate to have a meaningful presence in the smartphone segment (and Win8 is clearly their best shot to date). Their USP will be integration between the desktop and touchpad/mobile device, so they'd like to make it easy to develop for both platforms simultaneously and keep the UIs aligned.
But I don't see why it need be hard to provide an option to turn the Metro screen off. I bet third parties will be offering this capability (probably for free) the day it launches.
They have investors. They can't just be the best at one thing they must always be growing and expanding into new areas or they're useless.
Tbh it's a good excuse to do away with the stock market
> But I don't see why it need be hard to provide an option to turn the Metro screen off.
Microsoft will be making this as hard as possible because they want to force Metro down your throats until you grow to love it and then demand it on your tablet, phone, TV and car.
One way to avoid it being turned off is to rip out of Windows any alternate mechanism, such as all the start menu code. Then they would have to write all new code to replace Metro.
Then they would make Metro, or some core part, as part of the secure boot so it cannot be replaced without stopping Windows booting.
Then they will only allow Metro style apps to be loaded from the app store, which they will control so a disabler or replacement will not be available.
Metro apps (read programs) are only available from the Microsoft Store.
Microsoft take 30% of the revenue of third-party apps sold from the Microsoft Store, ergo they earn at least 30% of the revenue of all Metro apps.
That is why they will not allow you to turn off Metro, it is a revenue stream.
Are they planning on not selling a single copy of Windows Server 2012 with its metro hell as well if thats the case?
"Are they planning on not selling a single copy of Windows Server 2012 with its metro hell as well if thats the case?"
They are recommending that you use the Core (GUI-less) installation for Server 2012, and in the current preview version, that is the default installation method.
I gather that their idea is that you use Remote Deskltop or similar from another system to actually get stuff done. Or get used to writing lots of stuff in PowerShell...
And what's wrong with a touch screen server?
There are a whole range of finger based gestures I have come to associate with managing exchange
"And what's wrong with a touch screen server?"
When it's sitting in a server room, and probably running headless too. Server rooms aren't the most pleasant places to work.
The Reg really needs an icon for Irony. As in, oh the balls-out, stick-your-face-in-it irony of if being 2012 and GUI-less Windows server being pushed as the way to go. What next, bash on Windows and a getty on COM1?
>When it's sitting in a server room, and probably running headless too.
That's what the Kinect's gesture recognition camera is for.
You just stand outside the server room and gesture to the server you want to reboot.
I think he may have been referring to some of the finger based gestures we all do with Windows Server - normally involving just one or two fingers, directed at the machine itself.
Of course, the touch based interface normally involves a lump hammer...
On a more serious note, I've managed to get Win8 working properly on a Macbook (use an MSI editor like Orca to dump the InstallConditions from the 32/64bit Bootcamp MSI in the Apple folder to get it to install) so I must pop Server 2012 in a VM on the OS X side and see how that goes. No doubt I won't be able to avoid it.
The enterprise may be able to skip a generation, but SMBs and local outfits won't be so lucky unless MS allow Server2k8 downgrades...which seems unlikely.
... I'd get rid of that silly policy of charging that much more for the server version of their operating systems. And I'd get rid of the idiotic idea of charging for each remote desktop client access license.
This would put Windows on par with Linux. You could suddenly have your applications on one computer while you have the freedom to choose what you use as a terminal. This would greatly extend the life of the Win32 platform and enable Microsoft to play with newer platforms for other uses.
Working on servers will be by using your Metro based tablet or WP8 and using the touch screen of that to operate the headless Metro based server.
"That's what the Kinect's gesture recognition camera is for."
"You just stand outside the server room and gesture to the server you want to reboot."
Isn't that represented by extending the middle finger?
...but I will be asking my boss for one when this PC wears out so I never have to use this turkey.
If the Windows 8 transition is as uncomfortable as AO anticipates, Apple might be able to peel away large numbers of PC users and trigger a collapse of Windows sales, especially if they were to create things like special Mac bundles with Windows emulators and file migration tools.
The PC market is still worth about $300 billion in revenue a year, a huge pool of revenue. If Jobs were at the helm, I think he'd be sorely tempted to attack -- hopefully someone in Apple's new management has the balls.
I don't think MS will take too kindly to attempts to remove Metro. It is so key to the new design philosophy they can't allow people an easy way of getting rid. I am pretty sure they will do all they can to lock in Metro and disable start menu 'fixes'. This is do or die and I suspect the later, but they are a big company and will have another chance if they are willing to admit their mistakes.
People learned the interface on their work PC, and when they were ready to buy a personal PC were comfortable to use Windows at home.
Now anyone who wants a new personal laptop or PC in the new era will get Windows 8. They'll take it home and get used to it, albeit with some pain. In a couple of years when business is forced to upgrade from XP or Win 7 the transition won't be as bad. The home users will even feel justified in the effort they spent.
I remember in the early MSDos / MAC OS timeframe it was difficult to sell MSDos users on a new (MAC) interface, even if it was easier and more capable. Users were reluctant to throw away the experience they had painfully gained becoming familiar with MSDos and its applications.
Its a long time ago, but I seem to remember that the Win95 shell was regarded as a vast step forward by most who used it - thats definitely not been the case by the majority of metro users.
"In a couple of years when business is forced to upgrade from XP or Win 7 the transition won't be as bad.'
I don't think so. Considering business is mostly in the process of upgrading from XP to Win 7 right now, I think Andrew is right - we'll just skip over Win 8 in the business world, like we did with Vista. Also, when we were busy skipping over Vista, users were buying Vista computers at home, and there weren't any issues with them learning the two different interfaces.
IT dept has recently informed us that they are rolling out Windows 7 globally over the next 18 months.
It is a pretty large multi-national with over 300k staff all currently on XP.
we skiped Vista and I expect we wont look at 8 at all.
Anon as I should be working.
Consider a Windows 8 hybrid device whereby it's a "normal" PC at work - using the windows desktop interface - then you detach the screen and take it home for use as a tablet - using the metro interface.
No need to have two expensive devices, just one.
Ok so it's clunky now, but a future hybrid device would work for me...
Then you'll either have a screen which is far too small at work, or far too big to use as a tablet.
Firstly, I would never use my work laptop for anything non work. Everything is too closely monitored in our company. Secondly, as the article says the split is just too messy. It is neither one thing or the other and not much better than dual boot. Desktop programs not designed for Metro will work badly with touch and Metro apps are just too few in number to be very useful yet. You would be better off with a completely separate device that has some developer support and excellent apps.
You are missing the point that such a hybrid would be a throw-back to the Tech Preview (which allowed you to avoid Metro on your desktop) and MS deliberately removed the option. MS are travelling in the opposite direction to you.
> Consider a  hybrid device ...
Consider a hybrid device that can fit in your pocket and has, say, a 4" touchscreen interface. It can be used as a phone, a webbrowser and does email. When plugged into a base station with screen and kb it can be used as a desktop for work. At home it can plug into the TV or a tablet sized touchscreen.
Microsoft won't do this because it wants you to buy all 3 devices: desktop, tablet, phone, and a TV and a car computer. It will want 3 - 5 licences per user not just 1.
The hybrid device will be Android/Linux not Metro.
If it was me, I'd have single OS that changes the desktop depending on the application. You buy a phone or a tablet and run a touch based interface. When you get home, you plug in a screen (or two), mouse and keyboard and the display changes to a normal desktop application. Extra cores in the CPU activate and you run the phone just like a PC.
This is what I expect M$ to make but instead they took the worst features of every OS out there and built a total shambles.
Yes they might sell one licence but currently their only selling one now. People was windows on their PC and usually an android or iOS phone/tablet.
If people bought a phone to replace their PC they'd buy one licence of M$ but then wouldn't buy a google or apple device, giving control and market share back to M$.
Metro just means people will avoid upgrading their PC and won't touch metro devices losing M$ the one sale they did have.
"""If it was me, I'd have single OS that changes the desktop depending on the application. You buy a phone or a tablet and run a touch based interface. When you get home, you plug in a screen (or two), mouse and keyboard and the display changes to a normal desktop application. Extra cores in the CPU activate and you run the phone just like a PC."""
That sounds exactly what Ubuntu is doing. Android has a Linux kernel (with extras that are being merged). When a phone it will run the Android UI, plug it into a big screen (HDMI) or a base station then the Ubuntu UI will start (preferably with the option of XFCE or LDXE) and run on the same kernel without rebooting.
Most people now have a large (and cheap) plug-in monitor for work, as well as the PC display, so I don't think this is generally true
Considering so many businesses are still on XP/Vista, MS can still derive huge income from businesses upgrading to W7 - which is a great and well-tested OS. Cheap workstations are now able to run W7 with ease, etc.
So I see no real problem bypassing enterprise.
John Dvorak's review on Market Watch is quite an amusing read, since he is a bit of self-confessed MS fan boy.
When the fan boys call your new product an unmitigated disaster, then you know you have a problem.
'The real problem is that it is both unusable and annoying. It makes your teeth itch as you keep asking, “Why are they doing this!?” '
'What is this departure based on? It’s based on the pipe dream that the unsuccessful user interface used by Windows Phone will turn into a success on the tablet — to such an extreme that people will also demand it on the desktop, so all the platforms can have the same look and feel.'
'The public and enterprise users are going to demand Windows 7 throughout 2013 and until Microsoft gives up on this soulless Metro interface and gets a new design team, fast'
That covers how I feel about it. I've tried using it myself and it's just cumbersome and annoying. The Metro UI looks like a web page. In fact, it reminds me of Active Desktop. Anyone remember that and IE 4? Good times.
I think Paul Thurrott's response carries more weight than John C Dvorak's concerning Win8, which speaks even more of MS' miss on this DE.
MS may very well be rushing to shore up the consumer space, but could open a far larger breach in its fortress by taking all focus off the enterprise space. Apple kit is increasingly seen as acceptable/viable in the enterprise space, and MS' panicked response vs Apple's well-measured approach to the tablet/desktop dichotomy might just provoke a significant backlash. We might even see the long-prophecied 'year of Linux on the desktop'...
'year of linux on the desktop'
That's come and gone already. Those of us that want it, have it. MS's problem is that consumers have many choices beyond desktops now, and Apple, or some form of Linux, runs on most of the alternatives.
So in typical panic mode MS is trying to expand out... by pushing a non-desktop interface on desktops? Oo-kaay...
I think it's clear that Microsoft have given up trying to make this release appealing to businesss or indeed users of mouse / keyboard computers. The experience borders on the intolerable for "classic" desktop users. I expect Windows 9 will be turned around pretty fast much like Windows 7 appeared with 18 months of Vista.
It's not that metro is a bad idea but that it makes very few concessions to the way people work. A typical desktop may have 30 or 40 programs installed - games, apps and whatnot. There are no folders in metro so Microsoft have kludged in some filter to strip out uninstallers and readmes and other detritus and present the stuff that slips through as an enormous horizontal flat list. It's just abysmal behaviour. Desktop users also may have multiple monitors and lots of pixels yet there is no effort by Metro to allow users to customize the scale or size of tiles to pack in more information or tone down the gaudiness.
I think it will be a public relations disaster. The disaster could be compounded because Windows on ARM and Windows on Intel are two similar looking but incompatible versions of the same OS. One has the old desktop and one does not. It may even be the case that both versions are locked down to an app store so people cannot install apps except via the store. I can imagine the fun and games at PC world with people returning tablets when they discover none of their software works on it.
>"I expect Windows 9 will be turned around pretty fast much like Windows 7 appeared with 18 months of Vista."
Nope, all the MS developers will be forced to use windows 8. We'll be lucky if they every manage to release windows 9.
Developers are getting a taste of awful GUI design too. For reasons that make no sense DevStudio 2012 will display all the menus in all-caps.
Anyway I'm quite certain that a large whip will be cracked in Redmond to crank out Windows 9 to repair some of this damage. I hope and expect W9 to offer a far better experience for desktops.
Androids home screen folder support will get copied to Metro eventually. Wasting a entire 'tile' worth of space makes no sense on small screen devices but would become more usable on tablets or PC. Will reinforce the absolute space wasting stupidity of Metros tile sizing but too late to fix that.
I don't think it solves all the problems though. Nest folders deeply and that's a lot of extra clicks navigating them, leave them shallow and you're back to running out of screen estate. Only works on Android because they made launch icons small, not screen gobbling monster tiles.
And you've still had to switch context from the classic desktop to use it.
> It may even be the case that both versions are locked down to an app store so people cannot install apps except via the store.
Windows RT is locked down this way, you can only buy software from the Microsoft Store on the ARM tablets.
Similarly you can only buy Metro apps from the Microsoft Store in the x86/64 Windows 8.
Only "classic desktop" allows running of program's not purchased from Microsoft Store.
Yeah MS is riding this thing right off of a cliff. If I had any stock in MS I would be selling it off and purchasing Apple stock. I hate Apple in the extreme. The point is that this is WILLFUL stupidity on Microsoft's part. Skipping an enterprise cycle thinking they will avoid another Vista like debacle is wrong. The enterprise will never accept the Bob 2 interface or any refinements of it though Start8 is a much better take on the interface.
But I'm betting that the general end user will not like Bob 2 either. MS seems to believe that everyone must be treated like children telling us what we will like and must use. Making sure that we get a PLAYSKOOL interface with bright colors. I know that any computer I have to service that has Windows 8 will have a nice $40 surcharge added to it and I'll give it the line item "Dealing with Microsoft's willful stupidity. "
"Windows 8: Not even Microsoft thinks businesses will use it"
If Microsoft are skipping a corporate release, why are they bothering with Windows Server 2012?
The last preview I looked at also having the Metro interface forced upon us, which apart from being utterly pointless in this enviroment, also makes it tricky to use in a virtual environment of which the majority of server OS's now live.
Server 2012 is a whole different kettle of fish. *Here* developers are being encouraged to make sure all their software runs on the "core" server offering, which is purely command-line.
Offering Metro as the GUI on Server 2012 might, of course, be seen as "encouragement" for that transition to the command line.
So finally they've got the point that running a GUI is a waste of resources? That only took two decades.
They just want to sell more system center 2012 licences.
Nothing more nothing less.
A last ditch attempt by MS to get into a market it's missed by miles. It doesn't care if you like Metro or not it just wants to make sure you cant hide from it in the hope you give in and buy apps...and more apps.
Sh*t or bust basically.
I just finished rolling out Windows 7 here, if they think i am going throught that hell again with Windows 8 thay have another thing coming, and one more customer going.
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