back to article Windows 10 can carry on slurping even when you're sure you yelled STOP!

A feature introduced in the April 2018 Update of Windows 10 may have set off a privacy landmine within the bowels of Redmond as users have discovered that their data was still flowing into the intestines of the Windows giant, even with the thing apparently turned off. In what is likely to be more cock-up than conspiracy, it …

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          1. Richard Plinston

            >> RE: "There are still more Windows 7 PCs than W8 + W10 in spite of all new PCs for the last few years having later versions."

            > Nope. Try again...

            OK, I'll try again:

            There are more Windows 7 than Windows 10 (38.69 > 38.14)

            There are more Windows 7 + Windows XP than there are Windows 10 + Windows 8.1

            38.69 + 4.23 -> 42.92 > 38.14 + 4.59 -> 42.73

            And this is in spite of all new machine being forced to have the latest versions of Windows. Windows 8.1 was released over 5 years ago (October 2013), Windows 10 prerelease was 3 years ago tomorrow. In that time PC sales averaged around 275million per year. So the 700million you claim is actually much less than the total sales of PCs with those operating systems forcibly (by contract) installed.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "it's already on 700 million PCs"

          For being an OS given away for free for a while, it's remarkable it took so many years to reach that number - including new PCs for which there was no choice.

          And the very fact tat MS had to deploy fraudulent tactics to attempt to install it on systems user made their best to keep Windows 10 away tells a lot about how dismayed they were even the "FREE!" label slapped upon it didn't lured more customers into the data gathering hell.

          I'm sure without using snake-oil selling tactics, and with only a slightly better UI - and no data slurping, Windows 10 would be on many, many more PCs today.

          1. Updraft102

            Re: "it's already on 700 million PCs"

            For being an OS given away for free for a while, it's remarkable it took so many years to reach that number - including new PCs for which there was no choice.

            No choice for sure, and they made certain that was the case. No previous version of Windows used Windows Update (the thing that's supposed to deliver updates that protect you from malware) to distribute a Trojan horse that breaks Windows Update forever, leaving you vulnerable to third-party malware, if you dare to install a pre-10 Windows version on newer hardware. That's well beyond "MS does not support this." There's a difference between not supporting and committing acts of sabotage.

            On top of that, MS has apparently forged some unholy alliance at least with Intel, if not other OEMs, to not create drivers that will work with newer hardware and other versions of Windows. I tried setting up Windows 8.1 on a Kaby laptop some time ago, and I was expecting the Update sabotage. The touchpad, as it turns out, was impossible to get working properly in Windows 8.1. The i2c drivers that were necessary for the "precision" touchpad (which had no option to use basic mode in the UEFI) did not exist for Windows 8.1-- the 8.1 i2c drivers for previous hardware would not work at all when force installed on the Kaby laptop, and neither would forcing the Windows 10 drivers that worked with that model in Windows 10.

            I know AMD was also part of the announcement when MS glibly told us that we'd better get used to the idea of using 10 on newer hardware, as they'd all had a confab and agreed to only "support" 10, but AMD apparently wasn't as obedient as MS would have liked, since they released Windows 7 drivers (and maybe 8.1 also, I don't remember) for the various chipset bits of Ryzen when it first came out.

            Intel, on the other hand, has held firm, at least on the chipset drivers for things like the i2c drivers (packaged by Intel as "Serial I/O drivers"). Intel also declined to release a Windows 8.1 driver for the Kaby Intel integrated graphics, but in this case, force-installing the Windows 10 driver worked perfectly, with all of the options in the tray applet functioning perfectly.

            It's fine, I suppose. If MS would rather I have only Linux on the machine rather than Linux and one of their own products, I can live with that. I guess they really do love Linux now!

      1. JohnFen

        "it's already on 700 million PCs and was the fastest roll out of any version of Windows ever."

        Given the extreme measures that Microsoft went to to try to trick & force everyone to upgrade, that's a bad showing.

      2. aqk
        Angel

        Oh my! 69 downvotes so far (Dec 14)

        lol.

        Not very popular here are you? Sometimes it's tough revealing the truth to old fuddy-duddies.... ;-)

      3. Richard Plinston

        > Erm - but they are - it's already on 700 million PCs

        Didn't they claim that it would be on a billion PCs by Christmas or something ?

        (actually by mid-2018 apparently). So 700miliion is a fail.

        https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/15/microsoft_wont_hit_billion_win10_devices/

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Mushroom

      It is _SO_ like MS and Win-10-nic

      It is _SO_ like MS and Win-10-nic to bury the settings for "do not slurp" in 2 unrelated places, without documentation, and only mention them when faced with legal action.

      Back in the "control panel" days, things like this would typically all be on ONE page, or at least one set of tabs in a dialog box.

      But UWP "The Settings" can't fit more than 2 or 3 things on that BRIGHT BLUE ON BLINDING WHITE crap interface, even on a GINORMOUS monitor, because 4 inch phone screens. So it requires TWO (2) places, not one, but TWO, 2 places, to make the change(s) necessary to AVOID THE SLURPAGE.

      (rage - see icon)

      Aside from avoiding the cloudy 'Micro-shaft Logon' completely when setting up your computer...

      "Got, Linux?"

      1. Timmy B

        Re: It is _SO_ like MS and Win-10-nic

        RE:"It is _SO_ like MS and Win-10-nic to bury the settings for "do not slurp" in 2 unrelated places, without documentation, and only mention them when faced with legal action."

        Yeah - because everything is so well hidden that just 2 mouse clicks and 8 key presses reveals very part where you can alter the privacy settings in Windows 10. (click start - click settings - type privacy and press return)

        That shows you not only all the places where you can stop slurpy like things but also lets you get to screens that let you delete what MS has stored already.

        Though, at the end of the day, I don't really carte that much. I don't care if MS knows I spent 14 mins and 28 seconds in Outlook and it to Outlook 4 seconds to start. Perhaps they will use that to make it start in 2 seconds in the future.

        If you're all that worried put all your computers down and slowly back away from the internet.

        1. JohnFen

          Re: It is _SO_ like MS and Win-10-nic

          "If you're all that worried put all your computers down and slowly back away from the internet."

          Why go that far when you can just stop using Windows?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It is _SO_ like MS and Win-10-nic

        @ bombastic bob

        I'm not sure why you are raging. Turning all that off should be the first thing people do when setting up Windows 10. Windows out-of-the-box is a certain way sure, and Microsoft over did it in its contract with Candy Crush Saga 'n all, but who goes with that? You want it more private? Make it more private.

        1. JohnFen

          Re: It is _SO_ like MS and Win-10-nic

          You can turn everything off? Really? How do I turn off telemetry?

          1. Stephen Palbuddy

            Re: It is _SO_ like MS and Win-10-nic

            @ JohnFen

            Basically, just disable the "Connected User Experiences and Telemetry" service.

            You might also go through the Privacy settings, of course, and set everything to private. If you are running Pro, you can use gpedit.msc to lock down most everything should you want to go to extremes.

          2. m2key

            Re: It is _SO_ like MS and Win-10-nic

            If you are complicated instruction comfortable and patient, try this -

            https://github.com/adolfintel/Windows10-Privacy

            I completed this -in a few days- and my new laptops run without problems

            Cheers

        2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: It is _SO_ like MS and Win-10-nic

          "You want it more private? Make it more private."

          According to Microsoft, they are "committed to privacy"

          Of course, they don't exactly say what they are committed too with regard to privacy. Maybe they mean they are committed to entirely removing the users privacy?

    2. Updraft102

      And Microsoft wonder why people are not upgrading to Windows 10.

      I’ll give you a one word hint - there is no trust.

      Absolutely. An operating system, by virtue of what it does, is privy to all information stored on that computer, everything the user does on that computer, and to everything that passes through the computer. It has the keys to the kingdom, so to speak... like having top security clearance to every state secret a hypothetical country might have.

      To be in such a lofty position requires the utmost in trust. To grant such a level of security clearance would require the most stringent background check possible, and if there were even the slightest hint of the potential for divided loyalty, the person would most certainly be denied such clearance. It is imperative that a person embued with such a profound level of clearance would be loyal to the entity granting that clearance, and no one else at all.

      That's the key failing of Windows 10. To use an OS is to grant it total security clearance, but can Windows 10 be trusted to have loyalty only to the entity granting it clearance (in this case, the owner of the PC)? Even the possibility of divided loyalty would be enough to prevent clearance being granted to an individual, but Windows 10's divided loyalty is more than a possibility. It's a well-known, documented fact.

      This alone renders Windows 10 unfit for purpose. An operating system must have only one master, and that must unequivocally be the owner of the PC (often also the user in home settings, of course, but not in corporate settings). Any company that attempts to develop an OS to serve two masters, itself and the PC owner, is going to run into inevitable conflicts of interest which it will end up resolving in its own favor. It will, of course, twist things around so that it can claim that serving its own need is really serving the PC owner, like when MS forces updates on the unsuspecting customer's machine. MS will claim this is really in the best interest of the customer, since then he gets the latest and greatest in security and features.

      It's nonsense, of course, because it's the owner of the PC who gets to decide what the owner's interests are. If he decides it is in his interests to never get updates at all, then that's what the OS needs to do. It doesn't matter if you, I, or Microsoft think that he would be better served to get updates, because we're not the ones who own that PC. Ownership comes with certain benefits and prerogatives, and being able to decide things like that using any criteria imaginable is one of them. The company that makes the OS can try to persuade the owner of the PC to do something, but ultimately, it needs to respect that the owner's authority is absolute. It's why all previous versions of Windows included an OFF setting for Windows Updates (which they were sure to tell you was "not recommended").

      All of the problems with Windows 10 can be traced back to this MS philosophy of WaaS, which apparently means that Windows is now a service to Microsoft. What, you thought it meant that Windows was a service to you?

      The bizarre, inappropriate half and half UI was initially part of Microsoft's effort to use its Windows dominance to sell Windows phones and force a usable Windows Store into being. That's Windows being used to serve Microsoft, not the user. The ads scattered throughout are the same, as is the inability to remove "apps" like Xbox and the Store itself. It doesn't matter if you don't want these things on your PC... Microsoft does, because it serves Microsoft's interests to have them there. It's pervasive, even being evident in minor changes like the one where they took out the ability to select local searches only for entries typed into Start Menu/Cortana. The PC owner may wish just to have a local search that isn't cluttered with useless and irrelevant web results, but it serves Microsoft's interests to force you to have them, since the odds of you clicking on a sponsored link are always greater if you see the sponsored link than if you do not.

      That's the root of what's wrong with 10... it's not built to serve the user. It's built to serve Microsoft and the user, and the only reason the user is even in that loop at all is because even the most Microsoft-bound victim of Windows lock-in would not use a product that never serves his needs. The worst version, of course, is Windows 10 Home, which is so loaded with monetization and MS-serving that the only way it would even somewhat be ethical would be if it were a free product. It's not, though, with MS recently increasing the price on what at best is a freemium version of Windows. Even the free-upgrade version was not free, since it relied on an existing license that had been paid for.

      Satya Nadella may think that Microsoft has its mojo back, but its Windows product, no longer worthy of its own division, is in shambles. If they ever wanted to get Windows back to being fit for purpose, they'd have to undo every change they've made to the development process in "Windows as a Service." Every change they've made while getting back said mojo has been destructive. I get that MS wants to be in the cloud, but clearly WaaS has failed quite convincingly.

    3. aqk
      Facepalm

      NO ONE IS UPGRADING TO WIN-10? Oh, the horror!

      And Microsoft wonder why people are not upgrading to Windows 10

      Hello... people are not upgrading? lol.

      Just about everyone I know (and a lot of them are non-savvy folks (except for their thumby li'lAndroid chocolate bars) seem to upgrade their laptops (and the occasional BIG MONITORS desktop) every 2 years or so.

      And when asked if they want to replace the installedWindows-10 with Win-7 (or perhaps el-Reg's favourite Win-XP), do they still moan

      "OH YES! YES! I WANT WINDOWS-7!"

      The few that made this mistake a coupla years ago have since realized their shortcomings and have actually asked later if they could re-U/G back to Win-10. LOL. Not sure what replies were.

      Geezzz... Who are you old troglodytes here anyhow? WTF rock are you hiding under?

      Just ABOUT EVERYBODY I KNOW who buys a new laptop or perhaps desktop (I need that big 27" monitor!") accept windows-10 and, AND! have now grown used to it. Understand yet?

      And some like me, have indeed installed a Linux variant (usually Ubuntu 18.04LTS) on their old PCs that they refuse to junk. Sigh... sooner or later that HD will have a headcrash...

      Migod. Is El-Reg the last refuge for old dying Mac users?

      OK- I'm in Canada. Perhaps the nerds in Old Blighty still masturbate to pictures of Steve Jobs....

    4. aqk
      Windows

      Oh! The horror! Is it the evel M$ Bill gates spying on us?

      BS. They ARE upgrading! See my comments elsewhere here.

      OH! I expect to see AT LEAST 100 downvotes on my nasty truth / comment! Are you listening, Mac weenies?

    5. Sonic531

      So which is the one word? There? Is? No? Trust?

    6. Portent

      No trust

      2018 was the year I finally lost trust in Windows and moved to Linux full time for everything except a few small Windows only games (and frankly I haven't used those in months). I'd dabbled in Linux for years but earlier this year I'd just had enough of not feeling like my PC was actually mine. I'm now happily running Kubuntu with Firefox and am looking to reduce my footprint on anything Google too. The only area I don't think I can replace Google from is youtube.

  1. herman

    Hmm, if you are really worried about security and privacy, then there really is only one option: OpenBSD.

    Otherwise, you are not really serious about it and should just carry on playing your online games and chatting on facebook as before.

    1. detritus

      Or, y'know, using applications that simply don't appear on Linux.

      Saying this as I should be receiving my first Win10 machine tomorrow - a laptop so I can work away in the New Year. Looking forward to the new laptop, less so to Win10. I'm hoping I can scourge much of the tracking by scouring through gitHub and that German company with the stripping-tool (name escapes me right now).

      As much as not everyone uses an IDE to do all their work, not everyone's playing online games and chatting on Facebook as you so decide to condescendingly deride.

      1. IsJustabloke
        Thumb Up

        It's the amusingly named ....

        "that German company with the stripping-tool (name escapes me right now)."

        ShutUp10 :)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It's the amusingly named ....

          I hadn't heard of that before - if it does work as described then it seems to me that it's a must-have for anyone lumbered with a W10 installation!

        2. Jimbotech

          Re: It's the amusingly named ....

          O&O Software. https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

          1. Kiwi

            Re: It's the amusingly named ....

            Had a look in case they had something W7-relevant.

            To follow the Download or Products link it seems you need JS activated.

            I'll shop elsewhere.

      2. BGatez

        A MS reseller can provide you with Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB for about $300. Comes sans ALL crap and IMHO is closest to 7. Comes with NO "feature" updates, security updates only.

        1. JohnFen

          Yeah, but then you're still stuck with Win 10.

        2. antaresuk

          TeamOS ;)

      3. sisk

        Or, y'know, using applications that simply don't appear on Linux.

        That's why I tell hardcore gamers not to bother with Linux at all and college students to be cautious about it despite it being my OS of choice. What you're using a computer for should be a consideration in choosing an OS. Sometimes Linux just isn't the best choice. Most of the time for me though Windows is such a poor choice what with its privacy concerns and generally inferior overall performance - extremely inferior in my experience - that it's not even worth considering (the rare exception to that mostly being when I'm eyeing a particular game).

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Linux

          "What you're using a computer for should be a consideration in choosing an OS"

          with few exceptions, I would recommend "testing it under Wine, first" before purchasing a Win-10-nic machine/license JUST to run "that application".

          1. sisk

            with few exceptions, I would recommend "testing it under Wine, first" before purchasing a Win-10-nic machine/license JUST to run "that application".

            If you're paying full price absolutely. But if you can get a Win10 license for < $10 (which you can if you watch allkeyshop and similar sites and are either patient or lucky, though I think they're only just barely legal) then it becomes worth it. Beside that there are certain games that don't work on Wine anywhere near as well as on Windows or at all. And I've been told that in the case of certain games your game license gets revoked if you try to run it on Wine (though I've not played any of those games).

      4. Wayland

        Use the SpyBot tools for Windows 10.

    2. MJI Silver badge

      BSD privacy

      One company know about all of my online activity using it for games

      Sony

      And I think Nintendo use it as well.

      Playing games without someone knowing is not easy, many are on line based, of the others many require a connection for updates and the like.

      Even single player for game saves and trophies.

      But at least it isn't Microsoft

      1. JohnFen

        Re: BSD privacy

        "Playing games without someone knowing is not easy, many are on line based, of the others many require a connection for updates and the like."

        I find it very easy. I just don't buy or play games that require an internet connection. Job done.

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: BSD privacy

        "Playing games without someone knowing is not easy"

        unplug 'teh intarwebs' via ethernet, and don't set the login info for any wireless adaptor in your game console.

        Fixed.

        (you can re-connect when needed for updates, or in-game rewards, depending on the game etc.)

    3. Teiwaz

      OpenBSD

      I'm not knocking OpenBSD or any BSD.

      But you do have to curate your hardware choices much more than even 'Linux.

      Most users want to buy whatever they want and expect to be able to stick whatever they fancy on it and everything'll work.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: OpenBSD

        well, FreeBSD is pretty good with legacy support. Not perfect, and you may have to go back a few revisions to get it to work, but I think legacy peripherals still have a lot of support. Linux is also pretty good, but BSD and Linux typically get 'modernized' to avoid having to support hardware that might, well, interfere with getting the code to work better or to implement new features.

        example: 32-bit kernels on 64-bit MIPS platforms - gone in FBSD 12, as I understand it. Is anyone complaining? Maybe, but I doubt it will matter much.

        yeah, THAT kind of thing. I suspect OBSD and FBSD do similar things in this regard. As I mentioned earlier, the FBSD kernel source contains many references to OpenBSD, so there's been at least SOME collaboration in the past, at least, and I expect that it will continue.

    4. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Devil

      OpenBSD

      "if you are really worried about security and privacy, then there really is only one option: OpenBSD."

      I haven't tried OBSD but I have seen collaboration between that project and FreeBSD, at least within some of the kernel drivers.

      perhaps I should get the latest and put it in a VM, for grins.

      but, relevant to topic, ANY OTHER OS would be better than Win-10-nic for privacy.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "then there really is only one option: OpenBSD."

      [joke[

      Yes, you can do so little after you installed it that there's little privacy concerns....

      [/joke]

      The usual issue is the availability of software applications users needs.

      Don't get me wrong, I've server and network appliances running BSD, but as a desktop system it's not a real choice for most.

  2. chivo243 Silver badge
    Windows

    diving headlong into the Registry

    So, which keys do I need to tinker with? C'mon El Reg, articles in the past would have included this little nugget of wisdom ;-}

    1. poohbear

      Re: diving headlong into the Registry

      There wasn't enough space on the web page to list them all.

      1. Anonymous Custard
        Headmaster

        Re: diving headlong into the Registry

        Or you could always just follow the link in the article to the mentioned thread and the details therein?

        Anyway, to save the time:

        [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\

        Windows\System]

        "PublishUserActivities"=dword:00000000

        (the key is all one line, but el Reg's board is too thin due to having so many ads down the sides)

        1. chivo243 Silver badge

          Re: diving headlong into the Registry

          @Anonymous Custard

          Thanks for finishing El Reg's job. +1

          Ads? I never see any. Content filter and ublock origin at work. PI hole, ghostery et al at home... I was shocked when I saw El Reg on a non protected system, bling blam wonka wonka zoom, that a lot of ads...

          1. bombastic bob Silver badge
            Meh

            Re: diving headlong into the Registry

            ads down both sides? I'm not seeing it...

            I don't mind ads, I just don't see them because, NOSCRIPT.

            Now,, El Reg, please consider that MANY readers of your fine on-line news thingy are SECURITY PROFESSIONALS and IT PROFESSIONALS and are likely to do things *LIKE* block script.

            I wouldn't mind seeing ads. ADS WITHOUT SCRIPT IN THEM, that is. I might even BUY something from one of the advertised vendors. It's relevant to my interests already, no need for TRACKING via script by the 3rd party ad providers...

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: diving headlong into the Registry

              I wouldn't mind seeing ads.

              Same. A bit of text and a link, maybe a STATIC image (ie not some animated gif or video loop), and I'll see it and maybe even follow it. Works for directing me to articles I might want to read.

              Pretty easy to do some PHP code that fetches the ads from a database and squirts them into the text. You can even do counters for the advertisers and show some ads more often based on relevance to the article and/or how much extra the advertiser is paying you.

          2. julian.smith

            Re: Ads? I never see any.

            I didn't know there were "Ads" on El Reg - I must have configured something wrongly.

            [Mint /Firefox / UBlock Origin / No Script]

        2. Hans 1
          Windows

          Re: diving headlong into the Registry

          You might also want the fellow key (lives next to one in AC's post):

          UploadUserActivities=dword:00000000

        3. Bluto Nash

          Re: diving headlong into the Registry

          [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\System}

          "HeyMSGetYourGoddamnMittsOffMySytemDammit"=DWORD:00000001

          FTFY.

          1. Excused Boots Bronze badge

            Re: diving headlong into the Registry

            I think you'll find it's actually 'their' system, you're just allowed to use it for a while for a fee, (probably soon to be monthly), of course

    2. Wade Burchette

      Re: diving headlong into the Registry

      I first use O&O ShutUp 10 to turn off a lot of tracking (you must restart and do it twice after every 6 month update). Then, using a .reg file I made, I add these entries beyond what ShutUp 10 does. The last two turn on numlock by default, so you can remove those if your keyboard does not have it. This registry includes activity history. It turns off driver updates, promoted apps, and fast boot. It too must be done after every 6 month update. Just create a new .reg file and copy the text below to it.

      ----

      Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

      [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ContentDeliveryManager]

      "SilentInstalledAppsEnabled"=dword:00000000

      [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ContentDeliveryManager]

      "SystemPaneSuggestionsEnabled"=dword:00000000

      [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced]

      "ShowSyncProviderNotifications"=dword:00000000

      [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ContentDeliveryManager]

      "SoftLandingEnabled"=dword:00000000

      [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ContentDeliveryManager]

      "RotatingLockScreenEnabled"=dword:00000000

      [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ContentDeliveryManager]

      "RotatingLockScreenOverlayEnabled"=dword:00000000

      [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ContentDeliveryManager]

      "SubscribedContent-310093Enabled"=dword:00000000

      [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Power]

      "HiberbootEnabled"=dword:00000000

      [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate]

      "ExcludeWUDriversInQualityUpdate"=dword:00000001

      [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\System]

      "PublishUserActivities"=dword:00000000

      [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Keyboard]

      "InitialKeyboardIndicators"="2"

      [HKEY_USERS\.DEFAULT\Control Panel\Keyboard]

      "InitialKeyboardIndicators"="2"

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