back to article Brexit: UK will be disconnected from EU databases after 2020

The UK will be locked out of European Union databases once the Brexit transition period ends – but the UK is hoping a data adequacy decision will be adopted by the end of 2020. The Withdrawal Agreement (PDF), published late last night and testing printers across the nation this morning, runs to almost 600 pages and has led to …

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  1. John 110
    Unhappy

    Is it just me or...

    ...is it like watching one of those slo-motion crashes beloved of Mythbusters fans everywhere...

    1. Lee D Silver badge

      Re: Is it just me or...

      It's closer to that "time is slowing" sensation you get when you're the one hurtling towards the wall yourself, though.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Is it just me or...

      ...is it like watching one of those slo-motion crashes beloved of Mythbusters fans everywhere...

      Ah yes: "The EU is the solution to all of Europe's problems"

      BUSTED!

      1. Michael Habel Silver badge

        Re: Is it just me or...

        So did your Great, Great (and now possibly, Great), Grandfather sacrifice his life for this? How about your Great, Grandfather some Twenty-ich Years latter?

        But, here you lot are cheating for what is by all rights the incidus birth of the Germanic Fourth Reich. Compleat with its own SS (cough) EU Army (cough). Yeah may sold you lot up the Thames for 30 pieces of Ag? I think you lot sold yourselves out long ago.

        But, the MSM have so misused the Term Nazi, referring to President Trump. That they have since lost all sight as to who the real NAZIs are (usually to be found in Bruxelles), but also to be found in such Cosmopolitan Cities such as, Paris, and of course what good Nazi story doesn't include Berlin?

        1. BigSLitleP

          Re: Is it just me or...

          Trump supports white supremacists and describes them as "good people". Please provide evidence of the same in the countries you listed.

          Also, my grandad survived WW2 after being a tank commander. He backed the EU, as did Winston Churchill, they guy that helped came up with the idea and the European Court of Justice.

          The question becomes: who should i listen to? A war hero and the greatest brit that ever lived or some numpty on a forum shouting "Trump's a nice guy!"?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Is it just me or...

          It was the British army taking pot shots at my grandfather around a century ago, and the Black and Tans, ordered in by the famous English hero, Churchill. I've worked in Germany and I found the people friendly and welcoming to foreigners. I've also worked in England.

        3. Glen 1 Bronze badge

          Re: Is it just me or...

          "So did your Great, Great (and now possibly, Great), Grandfather sacrifice his life for this? How about your Great, Grandfather some Twenty-ich Years latter?"

          The first one was for the willy waving of our political masters. (I learnt about "The great lie" at school, did you?)

          We were so desperate to avoid a second as a result we sent Chamberlain the appeaser for "peace in our time". When that didn't work we (eventually, and with the help of the French, the Poles, the Americans and Canadians and many others) did what was necessary.

          Afterwards Churchill spoke of a United States of Europe, he is even named as one off founding forces of the EU.

          My Great (Whatever) sacrificed themselves because they were ordered to. At least the second time round the man ordering them to their deaths had a sense of the future. I'm not blind to his faults (1M dead in India), but I will quote him directly:

          "We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple.All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong, and gain as their reward, blessing instead of cursing."

          Which makes it fun to listen to xenophobes give speeches selectively invoking Churchill.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It will be good for some.

    Those living in the woods around Calais & Dunkerque will be quickly shown the (train) door to Blighty once wer're out. Hopefully they will fair better here.

  3. 0laf Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    I think the most honest statement I saw from an elderly Brexit supporter was (I paraphrase), "I don't care if it fucks up the country I want the UK to leave Europe".

    The only think I predict now is utter fucking chaos as the SNP now wades in. The only reason the SNP lost the indy vote was based on the prospect of an indy scotland being thrown out the EU and having to rejoin. What we got by staying was a ticket out of the EU vote through mostly by the nearly dead.

    If the SNP run another indy vote they'll win on the ticket of Scotland being able to rejoin the EU.

    Politicians, a plague on all your houses.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      If the SNP run another indy vote they'll win on the ticket of Scotland being able to rejoin the EU.

      You think? Sturgeon's already having a hard time trying to explain why Scotland breaking away from the greater UK is good, yet being a smaller part of of an even larger and more controlling polity is desirable. It all comes down to who they'll get most money from, but she probably doesn't want to admit that.

      Then imagine the border issues that will throw up, especially since that border hasn't been real for centuries. They'll spent 50 years arguing about where it should be drawn.

      1. WolfFan Silver badge

        Then imagine the border issues that will throw up, especially since that border hasn't been real for centuries.

        I'll simplify things. The Antonine Wall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall sounds like a good starting point.

        [exists, pursued by a large hairy individual wearing a skirt and carrying a claidheamh-mòr. http://reelgirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/King-Fergus-Brave.jpg]

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "If the SNP run another indy vote they'll win on the ticket of Scotland being able to rejoin the EU."

      ... except there is a not insignificant portion of Scottish Independece supporters who don't see an "independent" Scotland rejoining the EU as actually gaining independence.

    3. Pseu Donyme

      re: Scotland

      It seems that an alternative to Brexit would have been England and Wales leaving the UK while Scotland and NI would have remained thereby remaining in the EU as well (I seem to recall this was what the voters in the respective parts wanted). Actually, I think there would have been precedent for an even better trick: if memory serves Greenland left the EU while remaining a part of Denmark.

      1. Teiwaz Silver badge

        Re: re: Scotland

        It seems that an alternative to Brexit would have been England and Wales leaving the UK while Scotland and NI

        @ Pseu Donyme

        You forget just who is propping up the Tory minority government....

      2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: re: Scotland

        Scotland and NI would have remained thereby remaining in the EU as well (I seem to recall this was what the voters in the respective parts wanted).

        Except that the EU made it very clear that it wasn't going to be allowed. The UK is the EU member, if Scotland and/or NI were to secede from the UK they could apply to join the EU as independent nations. It would not matter if the UK were still an EU member at the time of secession or not, there would be no automatic 'pass' to membership. They would be required to accept the Euro (after demonstrating that their independent economies were up to it), join Schengen, abandon all opt-outs & rebates. It's a complete non-starter.

      3. Lars Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: re: Scotland

        "if memory serves Greenland left the EU while remaining a part of Denmark.".

        To make any sense of that one sentence a few more are needed.

        "Greenland, the world's largest island, is about 79% ice-capped. Vikings reached the island in the 10th century from Iceland; Danish colonization began in the 18th century, and Greenland became an integral part of the Danish Realm in 1953. It joined the European Community (now the EU) with Denmark in 1973 but withdrew in 1985 over a dispute centered on stringent fishing quotas. Greenland remains a member of the Overseas Countries and Territories Association of the EU. Greenland was granted self-government in 1979 by the Danish parliament; the law went into effect the following year. Greenland voted in favor of increased self-rule in November 2008 and acquired greater responsibility for internal affairs when the Act on Greenland Self-Government was signed into law in June 2009. Denmark, however, continues to exercise control over several policy areas on behalf of Greenland, including foreign affairs, security, and financial policy in consultation with Greenland's Self-Rule Government".

        https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gl.html

        PS. 91% of export is fish.

        1. mosw

          Re: re: Scotland

          >if memory serves Greenland left the EU while remaining a part of Denmark.

          > ...

          >PS. 91% of export is fish.

          So I guess it was "goodbye and thanks for all the fish"?

      4. Ken 16 Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: re: Scotland

        Yes, England and Wales could join the Channel Islands, Mann and various British Overseas Territories outside the EU while leaving the UK inside.

        @Pseu Donyme

        1. Roland6 Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: re: Scotland

          >while leaving the UK inside.

          Took a moment to grasp. Like the Scottish devolution reframing...

    4. Version 1.0 Silver badge
      Unhappy

      I'm curious about the similarity between the names of the Internet Research Agency and the European Research Group ... coincidence? I guess it could be a coincidence ... but seriously, their aims appear aligned.

  4. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    Ah, the UK gov

    Still pretending they can move out but keep the keys.

    I've stocked up on popcorn, I'm ready for the show.

    1. Rich 11 Silver badge

      Re: Ah, the UK gov

      I've stocked up on whisky and spam and pot noodles.

      Thinking about that list, I'd better get a big stash of Vitamin C supplements too.

      1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

        Re: Ah, the UK gov

        Add to the list:

        Loo roll

    2. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Ah, the UK gov

      There was a brilliant quote from someone in Europe, forgot who.

      Divorce means divorce. You split the belongings the children suffer, but everyone at some point gets on with it. What the British want is not a divorce, they want to be allowed to still sleep in the house, use the car and even f*ck their ex-spouse on Tuesdays and Thursdays regardless of do they want it or not.

      1. Clunking Fist Bronze badge

        Re: Ah, the UK gov

        "What the British want is not a divorce, "

        Well, the British people do: it's Teresa May the Remainian who wants to fudge it.

        1. strum Silver badge

          Re: Ah, the UK gov

          >Well, the British people do:

          The British people just wanted to give 'them people' a good kicking. They didn't have a clue where they were going (still don't).

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ah, the UK gov

        No, that's what te EU want.

        And May is their tool.

        What the British want is a 'clean break'.

        Unfortunately no brexiteer has been allowed near the leave process.

        the resultant muddle is now being both blamed on leavers who had no input, and being used to move the country towards remaining.

        The odd thing is that remoaners seem oblivious to how cynically they are being manipulated.

        Maybe their citizens are as stupid and dumb as the EIU considers them.

        1. Martin
          FAIL

          Re: Ah, the UK gov

          What the British want is a 'clean break'.

          Bollocks.

          A very small majority voted leave. There are 16 million of us who voted to stay.

          I am so SICK of being told that "hard Brexit, get out no matter what damage it does" (aka "a clean break") is what the British people want. It is not what I want, nor anyone I know.

          It's not what the British want. It's what a few tabloids and politicians want. Most of us are just sick of the whole fucking mess we're in now, and want it sorted out - and very many of us, probably by now a majority, would prefer it to be sorted out by saying sod it - let's just stay - it's much easier.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Ah, the UK gov

            @ Martin

            "majority voted leave"

            Just keep repeating that. And think about democracy as you do.

            1. Martin
              FAIL

              Re: Ah, the UK gov

              "majority voted leave"

              Just keep repeating that. And think about democracy as you do.

              OK, I'll try that.

              "majority voted leave"

              "majority voted leave"

              "majority voted leave"

              "majority voted leave"

              "majority voted leave"

              ...

              Nope. I still see an advisory referendum with a tiny majority one way, that suddenly became a binding referendum, taking near as damn it half the country to a place they didn't want to go. Every other country which has binding referendums insists on a supermajority to ensure that there is no real argument.

              I still see a referendum where the people were lied to by politicians and tabloids with their own agenda, which was financed by illegal payments, and where, two years later, it is clear that what was promised (basically, leaving the EU but keeping all the advantages) is not possible.

              I still see a referendum called by Cameron to appease the Euroskeptics in his own party, just to keep them quiet. No-one really believed that we were actually going to vote leave. The politicians in power just went through the motions, and only afterwards realized they'd put the country into a complete mess.

              I see a country which is more divided than I have even known in my whole life. A mess caused by politicians who were thinking of their party, not of their country, and by tabloid owners thinking of their bank balances, not their readers.

              I don't see democracy anywhere. I just see manipulation by the tabloids, politicians, and the super-rich.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Ah, the UK gov

                @ Martin

                "OK, I'll try that."

                Oh no you were doing so well I was proud of you until I expanded that comment. I thought- if he keeps it up he will realise. But then you started trying to justify minority rule and somehow confusing 'tiny majority' with somehow not a majority and then something about supermajority (aka you lost and dont like it) etc.

                And yes politicians lied. Both sides and badly. And as a leaver watching a remain PM try to keep us in I agree with "I don't see democracy anywhere. I just see manipulation by the tabloids, politicians". The continuation of pro-EU propaganda that has been so badly discredited over and over is sickening.

                But before you get to any of that we should take small steps and start at the beginning. Now repeat- "majority voted leave". Keep going you will get there.

                1. Adair

                  Re: Ah, the UK gov

                  So, in codejunky's world, the half who voted for the status quo, and all the rest who didn't express an view for whatever reason (including not being allowed) magically vanish. A tiny majority is exactly the same as a massive majority in codejunky's mind.

                  Please don't ever go into politics - there are far too many like you there already. People who don't know what 'public service' means, who think 'my way or the highway' is the only way, and who would happily nuke the enemy because 'they deserve it'.

                  No, codejunky, we really don't need more people with those kinds of attitudes towards other human beings, and how we all live together. We have far too many of them already - and look at the state we're in!

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Ah, the UK gov

                    @ Adair

                    "So, in codejunky's world, the half who voted for the status quo, and all the rest who didn't express an view for whatever reason (including not being allowed) magically vanish"

                    Ahhh I see your problem. Its called the real world and you are wrong. For example it was not half voting for the status quo (50%) is was less than half. Also those who didnt express a view do magically vanish from the calculation since they didnt vote, so we cannot assume their opinion (or that they have one).

                    "A tiny majority is exactly the same as a massive majority in codejunky's mind"

                    Actually it seems to be you struggling with the words. You can remove the tiny and massive words because this is a democracy and the rules of the vote were in place before the vote and the vote returned a valid result which met the rules and as a result the majority is the democratic opinion.

                    "Please don't ever go into politics"

                    I have no intention of going into that cesspit. But considering your difficulty with the basics of democracy I suggest you also avoid politics.

                    "People who don't know what 'public service' means, who think 'my way or the highway' is the only way"

                    It amazes me that you can write that without applying the same logic to yourself. You already pointed out the majority vote, which is also the result of the referendum. A referendum we got due to a general election and supported to go forward by another general election. And yet you want to push your minority opinion as the only way?

                    1. Adair

                      Re: Ah, the UK gov

                      Codejumky, your reply metely reinforces my argument.

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Ah, the UK gov

                        @ Adair

                        "Codejumky, your reply metely reinforces my argument."

                        It should. Your argument standing on reality then claiming the opposite. The only part I dindt join you in was the opposite. You wrote about voting but didnt agree with how votes are counted. You wrote about the majority but didnt seem to follow how it applied to a vote. Told me to avoid going into politics which I agreed and returned the suggestion. And I agreed with your last statement only that you seemed to apply it to me but forgot about yourself.

                        If you think you have any valid points feel free to express them. Or keep them to yourself and assume they are valid if it makes you feel happier in yourself. But if your gonna write on a public board you are going to have to expect a reply that may not meet your expectations of agreement.

                        1. Adair

                          Re: Ah, the UK gov

                          Codejunky, I don't think you understand what I said at all, or you choose not to.

                          It's not about 'majorities', it's about how people live and work together when they disagree. A very small majority merely emphasises the need for consensus.

                          The referendum and 'Brexit' are a classic example of how NOT to do democracy and how NOT to implement a fundamental change.

                          1. codejunky Silver badge

                            Re: Ah, the UK gov

                            @ Adair

                            "Codejunky, I don't think you understand what I said at all, or you choose not to."

                            Your reply contained nothing of substance only that I re-enforced your views to you. I wasnt trying to misunderstand, I am all for discussion.

                            "It's not about 'majorities', it's about how people live and work together when they disagree. A very small majority merely emphasises the need for consensus."

                            And there is none. No consensus. We were dragged into the EU, the majority has been against the EU for a fair time (long enough for multiple promises of choice without delivering), and a desperate campaign to force a lack of democracy. A democratic option was made available in which people made their choice and the result was derived. That is how such disagreements are resolved. Unfortunately the losing side is determined to inflict their minority view on the rest of us. This wouldnt even be a discussion if remain won.

                            "The referendum and 'Brexit' are a classic example of how NOT to do democracy and how NOT to implement a fundamental change."

                            Ok. Then you can be proud to know that 2 elections as well as the referendum delivered the result. If you feel it is too complex for the people to vote on then you can be proud to be ignored by the gov as they conduct brexit. If you feel the country should be trapped in the EU without a referendum nor choice then maybe you should move to France. According to their president they would probably vote out, but he wont give them that choice.

                            1. Adair

                              Re: Ah, the UK gov

                              You're right, there is no consensus, because of the incompetent and self-serving way the whole thing has been handled.

                              If the UK were a business the CEO, and the whole Board, would long ago have been sacked for their complete mishandling of the situation.

                              We are, in fact, reaping the consequences of years of political cowardice, inaction and complacency; not over the EU, but over the management of this country. The EU is largely a very convenient scapegoat and distraction that politicians and other stirrers have used quite shamelessly to excuse and justify their deeds, or lack of them.

                              And now, in a crass and bungled attempt to deal with the internal politics of his own party Cameron leads us into the present clown-show. You really couldn't write the script, no one would believe it - although for everyone on the sidelines it makes great entertainment.

                              In or out of the EU, the 'EU', for all it's faults, is not our major problem - we are, as a nation and as a political entity. And 'Brexit' has exposed the truth - we are a joke, a whining bunch who refuse to take responsibility for the mess we are making, who look everywhere but ourselves to cast the blame.

                              Inside or outside the EU the only people who are going to fix 'Britain' are us, but as it stands if 'Brexit' is an example of our present quality as a nation then it doesn't bode well.

                              1. codejunky Silver badge

                                Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                @ Adair

                                "You're right, there is no consensus, because of the incompetent and self-serving way the whole thing has been handled."

                                So how should it have been handled? How do we ask the people if we should be in the EU? This is a problem the EU is noticing as a lot of the other members are having the same problem with people not liking the EU.

                                "The EU is largely a very convenient scapegoat and distraction that politicians and other stirrers have used quite shamelessly to excuse and justify their deeds, or lack of them."

                                That is a dead on statement. But also we gold plate EU law into UK law. Remove the EU and both of those go away.

                                "And now, in a crass and bungled attempt to deal with the internal politics of his own party Cameron leads us into the present clown-show."

                                True. Only one party had brexit planned and that was UKIP. This would be done, dusted and in a bow by now.

                                "Inside or outside the EU the only people who are going to fix 'Britain' are us"

                                Ok, I am fine with that. So we can be happy to be out because we need to fix our gov and can focus on that anyway. But for us leave voters we dont have the bad governance of the EU above our bad government.

                                1. Adair

                                  Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                  But what we do have is being a relatively small country now outside our immediate neighbour's 'club', and also the largest trading bloc on the planet. We will be giving up our influence and benefits for a 'mess of pottage' indeed.

                                  No doubt we will find our way, but the world is not the world where Britain once called the shots, looting and slaughtering it's way to wealth and influence. Instead we will join all the other middling nations who have to take what they can get from the big players, and from each other. Nothing wrong with that at all, except it is probably not quite what many 'Leavers' and 'Brexiteers' have in mind.

                                  And there will be an immediate and painful cost to the nation, which as usual will be borne by those least able to cope. So much for 'social justice' and the 'well being' of the nation. Mind you, no doubt the poor deserve their poverty, they clearly lack what it takes to succeed in the 'survival of the fittest', 'dog eat dog' world of those who are so keen to have a 'clean break', whatever the cost.

                                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                                    Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                    @ Adair

                                    "But what we do have is being a relatively small country now outside our immediate neighbour's 'club'"

                                    Which has the total and absolute relevance of saying supercalifragilisticexpialidotious. Aka a completely worthless statement.

                                    "and also the largest trading bloc on the planet."

                                    Again so? Most countries are outside of it too.

                                    "but the world is not the world where Britain once called the shots, looting and slaughtering it's way to wealth and influence"

                                    Ahhh the self hating view of history. Do you not think most of Europe has plenty to hate about themselves too? That doesnt mean we can make it right by selling out the country and punishing ourselves now.

                                    "Instead we will join all the other middling nations who have to take what they can get from the big players"

                                    Big players like China and the US? The EU doesnt even compare. We are part of the developed world, unlikely to end up in such a severely damaged state as Greece and some other members of the EU (unless we elect Corbyn ofc) and throughout the leave process the EU keeps fearing we get a competitive advantage aka not trapped in the EU rules and regs.

                                    "And there will be an immediate and painful cost to the nation, which as usual will be borne by those least able to cope. So much for 'social justice' and the 'well being' of the nation."

                                    Oh so now we should ditch democracy for the good of the people! I didnt see that coming but no. But with full employment and wages rising (shockingly due to less migration) that is another poor argument. And yes there could be a shock but we only need to look at the state of the EU proper (Eurozone) to see how bad things could be and prolonged.

                                    "Mind you, no doubt the poor deserve their poverty, they clearly lack what it takes to succeed in the 'survival of the fittest', 'dog eat dog' world of those who are so keen to have a 'clean break', whatever the cost."

                                    And now tar any view opposite as heartless and your position need no fact or realistic position. A clean break already shown to reduce food prices which is an effective wage rise for EVERYONE including the poor. So in the same spirit- you obviously think the poor should starve and the EU drag us all down in their multiple self inflicted crises.

                                2. Adair

                                  Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                  And as for handling the 'referendum', as has already been said many times, any fundamental change is normally and sensibly handled by: a. offering an 'advisory' referendum (which this one technically was except the politicians decided to overlook that constitutional legality), with a view to using the result as a means of assessing how to proceed, and b. when any decisive vote us taken (whether in the referendum or later) that a 'super-majority' is required to avoid the divisive mess we are now in with the country split down the middle and riven by entrenched positions.

                                  This is all basic stuff to the managers and organisers of countless groups and companies, but apoarently beyond the wit and/or beneath the status of our political class, who presume to serve us, but seem mostly interested in serving their own interests.

                                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                                    Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                    @ Adair

                                    "any fundamental change is normally and sensibly handled by: a. offering an 'advisory' referendum (which this one technically was except the politicians decided to overlook that constitutional legality), with a view to using the result as a means of assessing how to proceed,"

                                    Ok, so joining the EU was invalid due to the fundamental change not involving a referendum. Instead the referendum was for a common market trading block.

                                    "b. when any decisive vote us taken (whether in the referendum or later) that a 'super-majority' is required to avoid the divisive mess we are now in with the country split down the middle and riven by entrenched positions."

                                    Ok. So we had a general election to get a referendum, a democratic vote (majority win) referendum and then another general election where the only main party for remain got almost wiped out. Done. So why are the remainers still so entrenched? What is wrong with them?

                                    "but seem mostly interested in serving their own interests."

                                    Like the idea of a peoples vote where remainers want to stop us from leaving? Leave has won 3 votes so far!

                                    1. Adair

                                      Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                      If it's any consolation I don't particularly care whether we leave or remain. What I do care about is how and why we make such a decision. The how and why of Brexit has been abjectly poor, the evidence for that is all around us - including our discussion.

                                      Brexit is most likely to prove a very poor choice - there is no evidence to suggest otherwise cand plenty to support that assertion. At no stage has anyone supporting 'Brexit' presented a cogent and substantiated argument as to why leaving in the manner that we are is going to result in a situation that is equal to or better than remaining and having a seat at the table.

                                      Added to which the chief proponents of Brexit don't seem to care that they have no useful plan. Presumably they hope that at best they will become the new leaders of the new regime and reap their rewards, and at worst they will be free to plunder the wreckage. Either way there is no evidence whatsoever that any of them give a shit about the wellbeing of the nation and its many inhabitants - especially the most vulnerable to economic and social crisis.

                                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                                        Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                        @ Adair

                                        "If it's any consolation I don't particularly care whether we leave or remain"

                                        Ok thats good. I actually do care and after the long road to actually get a democratic choice for the first time on this project and I did vote leave and that was the result. 1 election to get the vote, 1 referendum where the result was returned and 1 election confirming to carry on.

                                        "The how and why of Brexit has been abjectly poor, the evidence for that is all around us - including our discussion."

                                        I agree. Both campaigns lied their arses off and I originally thought the official leave campaign was there to make remain look legitimate, until I saw the quality of both campaigns and felt embarrassed these people are our politicians.

                                        "Brexit is most likely to prove a very poor choice - there is no evidence to suggest otherwise cand plenty to support that assertion."

                                        Well thats bollocks. We can see the state the EU is in. After 20+ years of being trapped in it we voted out. It is in multiple self inflicted crises and looking further inward while trying to figure some way to implement 'ever closer union' without more members leaving. It is highly unpopular throughout the EU and that is before we debate if we like 'it'. There are plenty benefits in leaving which is why the EU keep asking us to sign away our competitive advantage.

                                        "At no stage has anyone supporting 'Brexit' presented a cogent and substantiated argument as to why leaving in the manner that we are is going to result in a situation that is equal to or better than remaining and having a seat at the table."

                                        Then I suggest going through my post history and read the many times I have done so as well as the various offers of various topics where the UK will be better off. Very few remain positions seem to hold much merit only fear.

                                        "Added to which the chief proponents of Brexit don't seem to care that they have no useful plan."

                                        To a point I agree. The only party with a plan to leave was Farages UKIP. May seems so desperate to remain while that not being a legitimate option that neither leave nor remain seem happy. I have no faith in her.

                                        "Presumably they hope that at best they will become the new leaders of the new regime and reap their rewards, and at worst they will be free to plunder the wreckage. Either way there is no evidence whatsoever that any of them give a shit about the wellbeing of the nation and its many inhabitants - especially the most vulnerable to economic and social crisis."

                                        Sounds about right. The only consolation being we can vote them out and replace them. But I am under no illusion that the EU cares about us at all. They dont have to fear us voting them out and our jellyfish in power dont want to leave.

                                        1. Adair

                                          Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                          Your reasons for wanting to leave, well founded or not, do not constitute a plan - they are effectively wishful thinking so far as the actualitie of our situation is concerned.

                                          Nothing in this life is 'perfect', and that certainly applies to the EU. The point of belonging to the EU is a very old one - simply symbolised by a bundle of sticks bound together contrasted with a single stick. Who knows whether the 'EU' has a future - that is up to its members.

                                          As for 'Britain' going it alone, well it will have some kind of future. On the strength of present performance not a particularly healthy one: there is no clear vision for the nation as a whole that everyone can cleave to with some integrity and hope, and what vision there is is largely that of self-serving charlatans out to enrich and aggrandise themselves, with little to no regard for the well being of those most effected by their vainglory and greed.

                                          Britain going it alone is certainly an option, and could be a decent if hard option given the reality of world politics and economics. It is very unfortunate that 'Brexit' has been chosen as teh way of doing it, because 'Brexit means Brexit' and we all know that that means that 'Brexit' either means whatever the speaker wants it to mean, or it means nothing at all - which is summed up well in the present state of things. Truly it is a Humpty-Dumpty departure and Humpty has already fallen off the wall, and no one has any plausible plan for putting Humpty back together again.

                                          1. codejunky Silver badge

                                            Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                            @ Adair

                                            "they are effectively wishful thinking so far as the actualitie of our situation is concerned."

                                            Just as the fantasies of what remain would be. The idea that leave is somehow so bad is why such arguments cant be taken seriously.

                                            "The point of belonging to the EU is a very old one - simply symbolised by a bundle of sticks bound together contrasted with a single stick"

                                            The EU is based on an old way of thinking with protectionist blocks. Remainers at one point were accusing us of wanting to go back to the days of an empire etc, while fighting for an outdated construct.

                                            "On the strength of present performance not a particularly healthy one"

                                            One where the gov is determined to remain. I agree, which is why I voted leave and want us to leave the EU.

                                            "there is no clear vision for the nation as a whole that everyone can cleave to with some integrity and hope"

                                            Same inside the EU. Less than half wanted to remain, over half wanted to leave. The country was sold to the EU without the nation but somehow that now matters when the vote didnt give the 'right' result. As for integrity and hope, yet again not attributes of the EU. A place increasingly unpopular with the populations of the member countries.

                                            I too dislike the lack of a plan. We voted leave in a referendum where the gov rigged the vote, threatened the population, produced so much FUD and actively refused to prepare for the possibility of voting leave. Then handing the job to a remainer who is trying to keep us in when all sensible negotiation has been telling the EU to shove their attempts to own the UK. The guaranteed outcome we can do unilaterally is leave. That is our starting point and only if the EU is serious about some mutually beneficial deal should we bother to entertain negotiation.

                                            1. Adair

                                              Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                              Codejunky, your paranoia is showing. One common theme of many who favour 'Brexit' is their determination that everything they are unhappy about -- EU, the state of the nation, the fiasco of 'Brexit' -- that it is all someone else's fault.

                                              In reality the EU is a joint effort of nation states (it is not a monolithic construct); the state of the 'British' nation is the responsibility of all of it's inhabitants (the EU is a sideshow); and 'Brexit' is simply a turd that no amount of polishing is going to improve. 'Brexit' is a stinking excretion by a nation that is being poorly led, and is hamstrung by it's own internal contradictions, aggravated by ignorance, racism, and generations of entrenched social injustice driven by greed and entitlement.

                                              Leaving the 'EU' or staying in is, in the end, almost an irrelevance to the realities of Britain's besetting problems. It's rather like people who emigrate and then wonder why they are still miserable, perhaps are even more miserable, because they lack the insight to understand that they have merely taken all their baggage - the things that really are making them miserable - with them to their new home. They have completely failed to address the actual causes of their distress, i.e. not their location, but themselves.

                                              1. codejunky Silver badge

                                                Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                                @ Adair

                                                "Codejunky, your paranoia is showing. One common theme of many who favour 'Brexit' is their determination that everything they are unhappy about -- EU, the state of the nation, the fiasco of 'Brexit' -- that it is all someone else's fault."

                                                You might wish to elaborate. In what way is any of what I have said paranoia? Stating the facts is not paranoia. And for someone who apparently doesnt care either way remain or leave you really do seem to have a problem with the idea of brexit. So far you tell me its bad but dont seem to have a reason only how bad our gov is (which is not a reason).

                                                "the state of the 'British' nation is the responsibility of all of it's inhabitants (the EU is a sideshow)"

                                                And since you dont care if we remain or leave there shouldnt be an issue for you that we are leaving.

                                                "'Brexit' is a stinking excretion by a nation that is being poorly led"

                                                I dont disagree. As in the comment you are responding to explains clearly.

                                                "They have completely failed to address the actual causes of their distress, i.e. not their location, but themselves."

                                                Ok thats fine, so we leave the EU and your fine with that. So all your polishing turd comments dont matter in the context of brexit, you are fine with that. And we agree the gov isnt great. So what is the problem apart from an excuse to bash leaving the EU?

                                                1. Adair

                                                  Re: Ah, the UK gov

                                                  Because it is all so pointless, and beside the point. The 'EU', whatever it's faults, is not our problem. Our problems are internal, but joy of joys we have this thing called the 'EU' which makes the most wonderful scapegoat, right on our doorstep. Everything is the 'EU's fault! If only we left everything would be fine.

                                                  It's absolute rubbish.

                                                  You're right, I really don't mind if 'Britain' leaves the 'EU'; in a considered, planned manner, with a clear understanding of why, what the costs will be, and what the benefits will be, and in a way that engages the support of a decent majority of the population (something at least approaching a consensus), so that the nay sayers have to acknowledge that the nation as a whole generally supports the move.

                                                  But 'Brexit' is none of the above. I'm not against 'leaving'; I think that as things stand we are probably better off remaining in, and getting our own house in order; and I am against 'Brexit', which on all the evidence to date is doing nothing but harm to this country.

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