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back to article Google is 20, Chrome is 10, and Microsoft would rather ignore the Nokia deal's 5th birthday

Birthday cake makers, rejoice! There's a trio of tech industry milestones to celebrate or maybe commiserate. Google at 20 It is 20 years ago today that ad-slinger Google filed for incorporation and the behemoth that we all know and - some - love came into being via a jerry-rigged rack of servers in a Menlo Park garage. …

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            1. Anonymous Coward
              Reply Icon
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: It wasn't just apps

              The HTC HD2 wasn't a Microsoft / Nokia device. The market for Windows Phone was small, the market for non Microsoft/Nokia branded Windows Phone devices was almost non-existent. The corporate types were buying those because of the name, and the support policy for those determined its fate.

              2 0 Reply
          2. Richard Plinston
            Reply Icon

            Re: It wasn't just apps

            > I thought the orphan devices had a lot to do with it - i.e. Windows Mobile 6.x devices couldn't run Windows Phone 7.0. OK, as expected. Windows Phone 7.x devices couldn't run Windows Phone 8.0. WTF? And then again for many (but not all) Windows Phone 8.x devices with Windows Phone 10.0!

            It wasn't just the devices that were deadended, it was the apps and the whole development toolchain that was dumped and reset. WM6.x was a complete dead end, nothing could be ported to WP7*. At least there was a conversion that could be done to some WP7 apps so they could be loaded into WP8 - when they didn't fail due to incompatibilities. WM10 then moved to UWP but developers had lost interest in rewriting everything yet again.

            * WM6.x devices outsold WP7 for many months after WP7 release due to businesses needing new phones that ran their existing in-house developed apps that couldn't be ported to anything else and needed completely starting from scratch again.

            6 0 Reply
          3. cat_mara
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            Re: It wasn't just apps

            Very much this. As Charles Petzold, the author of what was the "Bible" for Windows programming for much of the 90s once pointed out, there are examples from the Windows 1 SDK that can still be built and run on the most modern versions of Windows (nothing that requires e.g., file I/O as Windows 1.x still needed DOS APIs for that but window management, message processing, resources, etc. are all present and correct and largely unchanged). I don't think there is no any UI toolkit still in widespread use that could boast this.

            0 0 Reply
            1. Richard Plinston
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              Re: It wasn't just apps

              > Charles Petzold, the author of what was the "Bible" ... examples from the Windows 1 SDK that can still be built and run on the most modern versions of Windows

              While it may well be true that _some_ of the examples could be recompiled on whatever was the 'most modern' at the time he said that, it is also true that programs compiled for Windows 1 or 2 would not run under Windows 95 or later.

              > I don't think there is no any UI toolkit still in widespread use that could boast this.

              X-Windows comes to mind as one that probably could do this, and that was before MS Windows 1. Also it wouldn't surprise me to find that some early Macintosh, also before Windows 1, example code could still be compiled and run.

              But, does anyone still program down to the raw SDK level ? I would have thought that most programming is done on much higher level frameworks.

              0 0 Reply
        2. Richard Plinston
          Reply Icon

          Re: "your App Store lacks very very popular apps (YouTube, Snapchat)"

          > The YouTube app was there. Just Google complained it violated its policies... I would have seen what had happened with roles inverted...

          Of course it violated the Google terms of trade, it was Microsoft that wrote it.

          The roles were inverted when software that competed with Microsoft products were not allowed into the MS store, such as word processing and browsers. OTOH MS Office for Android, and much else from Microsoft is in the Google Play Store.

          6 2 Reply
          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            "such as word processing and browsers"

            You mean like browsers in iOS and Chromebooks? Here again, MS came last, others paved the way to full lock-in.

            You may also want to read: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/03/microsoft_claims_google_undermining_winphone/

            Office is in the Play Store only because Google knows without Android would have not a chance in the business market.

            2 2 Reply
            1. Richard Plinston
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              Re: "such as word processing and browsers"

              > You mean like browsers in iOS and Chromebooks? Here again, MS came last, others paved the way to full lock-in.

              """Safari is the default browser pre-installed on every new iOS device, but there are plenty of alternatives, ranging from Google Chrome and Opera's various mobile offerings to Dolphin, Atomic and Ghostery."""

              """Firefox on Chrome OS. Opera Mini on Chrome OS. Dolphin Browser running on Chrome OS. Ghostery running on Chrome OS."""

              Windows Phone: """first launched in October 2010 with Windows Phone 7"""

              ChromeOS: """Initial release June 15, 2011"""

              I am not sure why you think that "MS came last", nor that "others paved the way", but then this is the world of 'alternate facts'.

              0 0 Reply
      2. Waseem Alkurdi
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        Re: The "App Gap"

        And games too. We don't take that seriously round these quarters, but users *do* care.

        6 1 Reply
      3. Hans 1
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        Re: The "App Gap"

        Youtube, Twitter apps ? Oh, did Windows Phone not have a web browser then ? Why use those aps ?

        2 2 Reply
    2. Charlie Clark Silver badge
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      Re: The "App Gap"

      I would be more of a mind that Windows Phone failed because of Microsoft's utter failure to market it effectively, their continual switching of architecture and development requirements, and, above all, the insistence on calling it "Windows Phone"...

      All of the above, and the lack of apps. Of course, the architecture changes burned so many developers that the apps were increasingly less likely to come and network effects and inertia (hard to get people to buy a new platform) on top. I don't use a lot of apps but I do depend on a couple: Öffi, OsmAnd, The Economist. A lot of the rest can be wrapped in Webviews and will presumable be available as PWAs. Oh the irony!

      14 0 Reply
  2. cat_mara

    Maybe...

    ... if Microsoft hadn't been such greedy sods in demanding the same 30% cut as Apple did for entry to their app store, Windows Phone might have stood more of a chance. Or if they hadn't ended up appearing so weak by having to pay devs to develop apps for it. Or if they hadn't tied developing Windows Phone apps to a forced upgrade to Windows 8 whether you wanted to or not. Or if they'd curated their app store better to keep the fart apps out. Or...

    Nadella can play the "well, it wasn't my idea" card as hard as he likes and claim that markets always tend to converge on two dominant players anyway, but the fact is that Windows Phone didn't have to fail quite as hard as it did. That's all down to the pathological political situation that prevailed in Microsoft in the latter years of Ballmer's tenure and which still hasn't been fully resolved: witness the mass exodus of talent into the cloud services arm of the company in search of shiny things leaving the OS and desktop applications sides of the business apparently bereft of all adult supervision.

    14 2 Reply
    1. ThomH
      Reply Icon

      Re: Maybe...

      Not spending the better part of the decade before the iPhone trying to cram the Windows desktop onto a tiny mobile screen for stylus prodding might have been an even better idea. "But, we added an 'OK' button in the title bar!" is not an especially convincing argument that you've seriously evaluated how to provide a usable mobile interface.

      Or not engaging in so much effort to tie web browsing, including your browser code, to desktop Windows that you're unable to offer a decent mobile browser.

      Or not being so incredibly arrogant that you dismiss new competitors out of hand, based on a paternal attempt to dictate what "doesn't appeal to business customers".

      10 1 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
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        Anonymous Coward

        "trying to cram the Windows desktop onto a tiny mobile screen"

        While they could have designed it far better, they didn't have the multitouch capacitive screen technology which made the iPhone possible. Still, the PalmOS UI was less cluttered and easier to use.

        As long as they only made the OS, without a direct involvement in hardware design, they had to adapt to what hardware companies made available.

        That said, MS failed over and over to deliver the right UI for the right device - later it tried to expand the tile UI designed for small mobile screens to large desktop ones, showing they have real issues in understanding users needs, and putting their ideology about a single UI on multiple platform always first, despite the several failures.

        10 1 Reply
        1. Richard Plinston
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          Re: "trying to cram the Windows desktop onto a tiny mobile screen"

          > later it tried to expand the tile UI designed for small mobile screens to large desktop ones, showing they have real issues in understanding users needs,

          Microsoft hired consults to tell them why Windows Phone was not doing well in the market*. For a very large sum of money they told MS that the problem was that desktop users were unfamiliar with the UI. The solution was to force that UI down the users' throats until they loved it and _demanded_ it on their phones.

          * various analysts had claimed WP would overtake iPhone by 2010 or somesuch.

          5 1 Reply
      2. Waseem Alkurdi
        Reply Icon

        Re: Maybe...

        based on a paternal attempt to dictate what "doesn't appeal to business customers".

        If you've been following Windows itself before the advent of the iPhone and afterwards, you'd notice that the register "here meaning the writing style" in Windows documentation, interface messages, and public-facing material like its websites was always "business first, home user later".

        Windows documentation reads pretty rigidly "in a literary sense". There's nothing to appeal to the basic home user. The language reads like a technical manual. Errors that kept asking the user to "contact their system administrator." Wait, who is that again?

        (Or when the user thinks, "Hey! I'M the system administrator!" because he's using an Administrator account. Don't laugh ... because that was me.)

        This is because M$ has always seen itself as an "enterprise-focused" company (or too arrogant to condescend to the average person).

        On the other side, what other companies did (especially Apple and Sony Computer Entertainment) is "home user first, businesses, dunno, later?". The messages in their user interfaces and their documentation and the like are a lot more friendlier.

        Microsoft has learned the lesson of late, but they're frankly overdoing it with their "niceness" and "informality" of messages, actually.

        6 2 Reply
        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Maybe...

          Microsoft has learned the lesson of late, but they're frankly overdoing it with their "niceness" and "informality" of messages, actually

          I think you - and they - confuse "information free" with "user friendly".

          1 0 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
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      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Maybe...

      The 30% cut had nothing to do with there being no apps, considering Microsoft literally payed companies to port their apps.

      0 2 Reply
    3. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Maybe...

      How was the 30% cut a problem, since not only Apple but also Google was and is taking a 30% cut? You thought Microsoft should be the low price player in this game?

      It wouldn't have mattered if they took a 0% as there was hardly any userbase to buy the apps! The apps were never a problem for corporate users, so long as you do mail, calendar, etc. and they could have done quite well if they replaced Blackberry as the corporate phone of choice. Then the corporate apps would have followed. Microsoft couldn't even be bothered to get a Word/Excel viewer on the thing though, which is pretty bad - if your OWN developers won't support your platform, how do you expect others to regardless of the cut you're taking?

      8 1 Reply
      1. cat_mara
        Reply Icon

        Re: Maybe...

        How was the 30% cut a problem, since not only Apple but also Google was and is taking a 30% cut? You thought Microsoft should be the low price player in this game?

        Why not? Most commentators seem to agree that at least one factor in Microsoft's success at convincing developers to choose Windows over OS/2 back in the 80s was that the Windows SDK was freely available where'd you had to pay IBM for the privilege of developing for OS/2. Wintel has always been the "low price player" but it seems they were happy to let Android/ARM take tthat off them...

        2 1 Reply
    4. Richard Plinston
      Reply Icon

      Re: Maybe...

      > and claim that markets always tend to converge on two dominant players anyway,

      It was Microsoft that killed off Symbian, Maemo/Meego, Asha, Meltemi, Nokia-X (Android, later Microsoft-X) by contracts with Nokia. It was Microsoft that killed off WebOS (by waving 'Loyalty Discounts' at HP*). It was Microsoft that killed Windows Mobile 6.x, Windows Phone 7 and Windows Phone 8 (by incompetence in making the next range incompatible). Granted WM10 died a natural death because, by then, no one wanted it.

      So the convergence to two players was the 'natural outcome' of Microsoft stamping on anything that it could that looked like competition to its products, and then being incompetent with its own.

      * HP did not want to pay retail price for all MS products so it was cheaper to drop WebOS.

      4 1 Reply
      1. cat_mara
        Reply Icon

        Re: Maybe...

        IMO, Nokia killed Symbian, Meego/ Maemo et al. through managerial cowardice and a "fight it out amongst yourselves" mentality. Microsoft only turned up and delivered the mercy blow.

        2 0 Reply
        1. Richard Plinston
          Reply Icon

          Re: Maybe...

          > IMO, Nokia killed Symbian, Meego/ Maemo et al. through managerial cowardice and a "fight it out amongst yourselves" mentality. Microsoft only turned up and delivered the mercy blow.

          Certainly Nokia, as the top phone maker in the world, had many development projects that competed with each other. This is how product development works, but they could have been more efficient. It was Elop, Microsoft's wooden horse, that delivered 'the blow' with his burning platforms memo. He killed Symbian production even when there were outstanding orders. He killed the N9, and N9x0, even though it was outselling Lumix in the countries that were allowed to have it.

          Microsoft did 'turn up' to buy the division because they were switching to Android (Nokia-X) and then 'delivered the mercy blow' to Windows Phone/Windows 10 Mobile by closing it all down.

          0 0 Reply
    5. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Maybe...

      "leaving the OS and desktop applications sides of the business apparently bereft of all adult supervision."

      Have you no idea how much it costs to pay adults?

      1 0 Reply
  3. Teiwaz

    Saints and fools

    Even the saintly British politicians have taken a look at the search giant's practices and said the parliamentary equivalent of "steady on, old chap".

    This article is either a) written by an American or b) written for syndication to the U.S (shamelessy, and much like the recent Doctor Who and that last Torchwood story).

    Can anyone look at a pic of the likes of May or Johnson (for American readers, not 'a johnson') and still say 'saintly British politicians' without breaking out in a disbelieving smirk at the sheer gravity of their fib?

    6 1 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Saints and fools

      It's not written by an American because it's irony. Which we do, and only East Coast intellectuals do over there.

      But in fact many of the saints were pretty dysfunctional, publicity mad bastards, so it could just be factual. Saint Dominic could teach Rees-Mogg a thing or two about self publicity, for instance.

      5 3 Reply
    2. WolfFan Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Saints and fools

      Compared to the Trumpanzee, MayNot, CorByMe, and even Johnny-Come-Never are bloody saints.

      4 2 Reply
      1. WolfFan Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Saints and fools

        Seems that there are at least two Trumpkins infesting El Reg's comments section. Sad.

        2 0 Reply
  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    MS bought Nokia for one reason: Nokia X.

    Android on a Nokia, they had to stop it. Bastards.

    4 2 Reply
    1. Waseem Alkurdi
      Reply Icon

      Nokia X? Seriously?

      The half-assed phone that couldn't be bothered rendering its own user interface without lag?

      The Android phone without Play Store (or any proof for the end-user that it was Android)? The phone whose crappy plastic would leave Chinese no-name factories and in-flight entertainment headset makers jealous?

      If only it was a flagship ... Maybe a current HMD device, only made by "real Nokia*", and to Nokia quality ...

      That's not to say that Microsoft liked the sight of the former giant releasing an Android device.

      * Some are gonna say that HMD was founded by Nokia ex-employees. Yep. They aren't Nokia. Their phones definitely don't smell Nokia, but rather of some China factory product ...

      2 2 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Nokia X, unlike their Windows phones, actually had potential.

        If Nokia had have dropped Windows and committed more resources into X then Microsoft would have saved billions getting the same end result, and Nokia would still have been around.

        In some parts of the world, "Nokia" was a generic term for "mobile phone". But not even that level of branding could have survived the negativity of Windows.

        4 3 Reply
      2. Lars Silver badge
        Reply Icon
        Happy

        "Their phones definitely don't smell Nokia, but rather of some China factory product ...".

        No it's Foxconn and quite a few phones smell Foxconn.

        But about HMD, according to the Wiki:

        "HMD Global Oy, branded as HMD, is a Finnish mobile phone company, made up of the mobile phone business that Nokia had sold to Microsoft in 2014, then bought back in 2016. HMD Oy (limited company) began marketing smartphones and feature phones under the Nokia brand on 1 December 2016." ......

        "HMD is headquartered in Espoo, Finland,opposite Nokia's head office, and the company is largely run by former Nokia executives.[10] The first CEO was Arto Nummela, a Nokia veteran for 17 years, until July 2017 when President Florian Seiche took over as CEO.[11] Manufacturing is outsourced to Foxconn.[12][13][14] Nokia has no investment in HMD but remains a partner, setting mandatory requirements and providing patents and technologies, in return for royalty payments." ......

        Headquarters

        HMD are based at the Nokia Campus in Karaportti in Espoo, Finland, opposite Nokia Corporation's headquarters. HMD's other main offices are located in London, England; Noida, India and Dubai, UAE."

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMD_Global

        As for who owns the company try this link (in Finnish) :

        https://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/talous_uutiset/kuka-omistaa-nokia-puhelimia-myyvan-hmd-globalin-nyt-se-tiedetaan-kun-talouselama-sai-yhtion-omistajaluettelon-6728053

        2 1 Reply
      3. Richard Plinston
        Reply Icon

        Nokia X

        > If only it was a flagship ... Maybe a current HMD device, only made by "real Nokia*", and to Nokia quality ...

        You are thinking of much later Nokia Androids.

        Nokia X was not by HMD and was not Chinese made. It was produced in Nokia factories and was very similar to Lumix models - except the OS. It was available in Feb 2014 and Microsoft kept producing them for some months after they bought the factories, calling them Microsoft X.

        The HMD devices were much later.

        1 1 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Why would Microsoft care about Nokia, specifically, running Android? Shouldn't they have wanted to buy Motorola since they were the early leader in the Android market? They could have set Android back at least a year if they bought Motorola instead of Nokia back when phone buyers didn't know what 'Android' was but they'd heard of 'Droid' from all the Motorola ads.

      3 1 Reply
      1. Waseem Alkurdi
        Reply Icon

        Why would Microsoft care about Nokia, specifically, running Android?

        Shouldn't they have wanted to buy Motorola since they were the early leader in the Android market?

        It's about market penetration. Nokia had a way bigger brand outside of the United States. It's basically a household name.

        Motorola? Not that much. The Droid series barely made it out of the US and Europe.

        There are bigger markets (Asia, China, India, Africa, Middle East) where Nokia is pretty popular and Moto is unheard-of.

        Nokia + Android in these countries is definitely a recipe for disaster (for M$, in this case).

        6 3 Reply
  5. Waseem Alkurdi
    Trollface

    The company famously had the motto "Don't be evil" but became increasingly flexible in its definition of "evil" as it headed towards the difficult teenage years - the phrase was removed from its code of conduct this summer.

    Anybody remembers Animal Farm where the pigs disfigured, and later shortened, the Ten Commandments?

    6 3 Reply
  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It doesn't matter if Chrome bloats

    Google will continue paying software developers all over to bundle a Chrome installer with their stuff, making it almost impossible for an average user (who just clicks OK and doesn't look at the various checkboxes to see what they might want to uncheck) to avoid.

    It is worth it for Google because of all the personal data they can collect, the value of which far exceeds the cost of paying to insure that Chrome gets on everyone's PC. Firefox can't afford to do that, and Microsoft already has their browser on everyone's PC. It just comes down to a fight between IE/Edge and Chrome over trying to get/trick the user into making it their default browser.

    6 2 Reply
  7. Bob Vistakin
    Facepalm

    Blamer and Bill Gates don't talk anymore

    Wonder why?

    3 1 Reply
    1. Waseem Alkurdi
      Reply Icon

      Re: Blamer and Bill Gates don't talk anymore

      Bill Gates got bored of toying around with Windows around 2005 or something when he resigned as CEO and started his charity. Maybe got depressed when the iPad made its debut (probably was like, "Hell! I've shown this to the world YEARS ago and everybody thought I was a damned asshole!")

      Ballmer? Dunno, aliens got him? He's a billionaire. Why would he bother saying anything to the proles while he could bask in the sun of his billions and enjoy life?

      5 1 Reply
  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    'New ways to maximise advertising revenue. Whether users like it or not'

    Welcome to Phase-2 of 'closing the loop'. 1. Phase-One: Ad-Targeting. Phase-Two: Hoovering up credit-card / financial-transactions / patient-health info. Phase-Three: Intrusive involvement in every single event or transaction in people's lives: Big-Data - AI -Algo - Automation etc etc.

    Does your child get to have the surgery they need? Do they get a place on the college course they deserve? Do they get the job they wish for? Do they get the loan to buy that dream home? Who can they date? Do they get arrested because a pre-crime system keeps flagging them up in error etc...

    _________________________________

    Google & Mastercard Cut a Secret Ad Deal to Track Retail Sales

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-30/google-and-mastercard-cut-a-secret-ad-deal-to-track-retail-sales

    3 2 Reply
  9. Winkypop Silver badge
    Big Brother

    We used to do the searching

    Now the big boys search for us...

    2 1 Reply
  10. Charles Calthrop

    I was listening to original pirate material, which - I think - makes me the coolest el reg commentator

    'you won't find us on alta vista' goaded Mike Skinner.

    'too right' I thought, sadly

    0 0 Reply
  11. Charles Calthrop

    I still think WIndows Phone had hte best UI. I was so bemused something so beautiful and functional came from microsoft. then I bought a 1020, and with every update something was removed. Bemused I was no more, and so I bought an iphone

    Live tiles still haven't been copied properly. Or people, where I can see a list of my friends and get updtes from their twitter and facebook without having to use facebook's awful app. of course, MS killed that, too

    0 0 Reply
  12. Andy Goss

    The Old Portal Fantasy

    "refreshingly uncluttered Google front page." Still works better. But I keep seeing portal-like ideas being floated, the concept has a hypnotic effect on people with a lot of money to invest.

    I use Startpage mostly, and Duck Duck Go, but Google pioneered the search engine that just searches. One big plus with Startpage is that it does not warp the search by referencing previous searches.

    0 0 Reply

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