back to article Brit bank TSB TITSUP* after long-planned transfer of customer records from Lloyds

UK bank TSB's efforts to upgrade its systems have left numerous customers without online banking services – and some report having unintentionally accessed different accounts' details. The organisation, which split from Lloyds Banking Group in 2013, chose this weekend to complete the move of its customers' data from Lloyds IT …

Anonymous Coward

Re: Tested how many times?

You're right, that is what they used.

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Re: Tested how many times?

TSB renaming itself to Sabadell? You mean something like The Sabadell Bank?

Yes, I bank with TSB, and no, it's still down. I think the cat must have fallen off the branch and squashed something important. Thankfully I have another bank account to be going on with.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Tested how many times?

Aren't you supposed to use obfuscated data in test environments, and not prod data?

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Re: Tested how many times?

"Testing is for wimps" well yes, in order to be able to test the thing, you have to design it for testing first. Try designing something (anything !) properly, when the only thing that matters is meeting the deadlines with the ever-growing list of features. Where things such a monitoring, or testability, or control, or logging, or benchmarking are sure to have dropped down the list because the only thing the managers understand is the flow of forms, or in the best case Excel spreadsheets. And when was the last time you saw tested spreadsheet?

I am not saying this has happened here (do not have sources in TSB or Lloyds) but I have worked in banking long enough to know that competent managers are exception, not rule.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Tested how many times?

Yes, you are supposed to use obfuscated data in test environments.

I would recommend that unless the system is entirely new production data is used where possible if you want things to actually work. I don't work for a bank, fortunately, but the systems I work on include :

Implementations where the code and data have changed over a decade, so what the data look like at year one are not the same as in year ten, for the same actions.

Data that have bypassed all validation, because validation wasn't included in a special out of bounds data submitter. The data were of course presumed correct when supplied.

Staff who have manually edited data, despite being told not to, because it's easier and quicker than doing it the right way.

Data that have been manually edited because otherwise it would need a convoluted code change, that has been tested and works for years, until a special new upgrade comes along that can't cope with the 'data in a state that is fine for everything except this' condition.

Code that has been incorrect for a short period, and tweaked data in ways that it shouldn't.

Tools that have the power to break things if they are used incorrectly, being used incorrectly.

Data being deleted when it is a dependency for something else

Data in the future or past because it was entered legally, but incorrectly.

Obfuscated test data would be unlikely to do any of the above, it's difficult to generate enough data to realistically test the system, and it's non trivial to anonymise all data as some have dependencies on others, and still possible to identify people.

For instance, if you tested your organisational chart modelling tool, with a certain Mr. Goreja Tray at the top, with 21 heads of department below him, another 294 'employees' in the organisation, supported by a third party organisation with 10 members, competing on 'deals' comprising 650 delegates including themselves.. I, for one, would have absolutely no idea where the source data came from.

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Re: Tested how many times?

Excel shouldn't be used for that sort of thing but is.

I have seen tested Excel spreadsheets. The issue is not the spreadsheet but the process and the documentation. The spreadsheet stays the same but the system it interfaces with does not. No one updates the spreadsheet, and the spreadsheet breaks the system.

Everything has to be documented and communicated with all parties, otherwise what is initially an unimportant aside becomes critical. Five years later this unimportant aside breaks, because it was never correct and made assumptions. If the existence of this aside was communicated the design would have been fixed, instead the component it depends upon is changed, it breaks the assumption made in the aside, and causes a huge amount of hassle.

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Devil

All your banks are belong to us

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Anonymous Coward

Simple fix - change your bank

The End

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Re: Simple fix - change your bank

With TSB systems revelling in undocumented software features quite how would you transfer the account to another bank? A bank whose software is so old it now runs on dinosaur's droppings rather than the new fangled rocking horse and hen's teeth fuel?

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Re: Simple fix - change your bank

They are all just as bad as each other.

The simple fix is to have lots of bank accounts, and split your money between them.

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Re: Simple fix - change your bank

I did..

I had a halifax (Building Soc) account a bank of scotland account and a TSB (Back before the lloyds merge) account.

All of them were gobbled up into one big mess by lloyds banking group over the last 10-15 years.

Halifax and BOS merged what... 15 years ago. I still cant use my BOS card to pay cash in at the automated machines in branch... and my nearest BOS branch is over the border.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Simple fix - change your bank

How about going into the bank and withdrawing as much as they will allow and taking the cash to another bank or alternatively just transferring it to under your pillow where it gets more interest.

Did you think that putting your money in gave them the right to keep it and treat you like you didn't matter?

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Stop

Test data ...

the problem with testing in these sort of situations is that the "test data" has been lovingly fiddled with over many years to be perfect.

Unlike the real world.

I have seen a few projects where more work went into fixing the test data than the program that was supposed to use it.

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Bronze badge

Well....

....that's what you get for outsourcing your IT to IBM. IBM who are making everyone redundant so no one gives a fuck especially with the thought your IT job is also going to be outsourced aboard.

Keep staff in house and give them a decent wage and they'll give a fuck. Treat them like cheap dogs, then they'll be like Roy from the IT Crowd when he takes ages to answer the phone.

When will companies and mangers learn IT matters and isn't something you can just do on the cheap and outsource.

Fools.

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Pint

Re: Well....

When will companies and mangers learn IT matters and isn't something you can just do on the cheap and outsource

Never. The important question is: When will IT-people (and engineers) learn that if one is not one of: Management or Sales (which pulls in the profits) one is merely an Operating Expense (a destroyer of shareholder value, something that must be minimised and something that the other two productive classes indeed get incentives to get rid of).

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TSB, it's the 404 me.

Great. I can log in now, but once I do, all I ever see is "page not found".

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Re: TSB, it's the 404 me.

Ive been in.. its very slow and it told me twice that my user ID/Password was wrong (It wasnt)

Edit. Sorry everyone. I jinxed it.

Just getting "Error loading data" now and for some reason my mortgage balance looks like its quite a bit higher than last time I went in... Though I might be imagining that, its not something I monitor daily!

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Re: TSB, it's the 404 me.

Doesn't seem too bad now, except that the debit card transactions I made over the weekend are still missing. Most annoying though is they've changed the date format in the .csv export from dd/mm/yyyy to dd-mm-yyyy, so I had to add an extra line of code to the import on my budgeting spreadsheet. I think I'll send the TSB a bill for my time.

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so... tell me...

Does 'TSB' stand for 'Terminally Stupid Buffoons'? Or, perhaps, 'Terribly Shitty Bank'?

Why do they still have customers? I'd have thought that even Barclays (ick! dip fingers in holy water to cleanse them!) was better.

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Childcatcher

Re: so... tell me...

I'm struggling to think of a UK bank that hasn't gone TITSUP in recent times. I suspect they're all as bad as each other.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: so... tell me...

As a customer of many years standing I would like to suggest HSBC. They're a bag of cocks, but their systems seem to stay up and functioning. Plus, if you've got $500m dollars you need to shift from Mexico, they got your back.

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Facepalm

18:00 on Monday, still not working

I managed to log in and can see my account (woohoo!), but trying to do something radical like set up a "payment" seems to be too much for it to cope with and it throws an error.

Hopeless.

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Re: 18:00 on Monday, still not working

Try viewing your direct debits.

On the one occasion it loaded for me they seem to have changed the paid date column so that every cell has the word "PAID : " before the date. Completely superfluous change and makes it harder for me to import the data into a spread sheet like I normally do...

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Re: 18:00 on Monday, still not working

You're lucky.

My Direct Debit screen says "You don't have any Direct Debits set up for this account". Which is gonna come as one hell of a surprise to my mortgage company...

The web page title for the list of accounts screen is "holding list" - yes, in lower case.

It's a total clusterfsck. This is pretty basic stuff. Did they do ANY testing??

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Re: 18:00 on Monday, still not working

It would probably help if they removed their test internal domain from their Angular javascript.... looks like a blocker on at least one piece of functionality to me; no expert... but I do not what the Google Developer Console is for. They should try it.

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WTF?

Re: 18:00 on Monday, still not working

Well, I can't log in at all now. It's claiming invalid credentials, even though my credentials are correct.

Ah, there it is: "https://test1.int.uk.tsb/14562512/SbtlTsbr_t.js" - clearly flagged up on the login page console.

I get the impression someone, somewhere is frantically restoring "direct_debits.xls" from last week's backup tape. I had no idea banking IT was so shonky...

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Re: 18:00 on Monday, still not working

@clanger9

oh my god, I didnt even think to bother to check the dev console or fiddler...

That makes for quite comical reading.

We have websockets trying to establish connections back to 127.0.0.1 with a n array of port numbers, but of course thats all firewalled off so the only port its managed a connection on is 3389 which is already in use (Strange that).

Aaaaaannnnd look at that running synchronous code on the main thread.. that will be why the page stops working when I try to login...

And the fact that its trying to load resources from test1.int.uk.tsb is a bit of a worry... Ill bet it works for them though!

I half expect the images to all be pointing at "file:///c:\Development\Banks\TSB\Resources\Images\"

----

On a seperate note the few times I have been able to get on I have confirmed that there is money in my account... but my card is still being declined - anyone else experiencing that?

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Re: 18:00 on Monday, still not working

"t would probably help if they removed their test internal domain from their Angular javascript"

But it works for them!

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Re: 18:00 on Monday, still not working

Even if you have no direct debits listed, and I seem to be in the same boat there, it looks like they are still being taken correctly from the account because I had one taken yesterday.

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As of 20:30 on Monday

I get to the login screen and enter account details but after a moment I get

<div>Sorry, we are currently experiencing technical issues. Please try again later.</div>

Yes they display the actual <div /> tags...

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Well its got worse.

Now I get a login screen but when I try to login I get a nice grey overlay over the whole page for a few seconds and then an error message gets rendered with the HTML markup at the top of the page...

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Anonymous Coward

Tab account mixed up

Logged into "my wife's" account but somebody else's account was presented that we didn't recognise. Screengrabbed about 6 months worth of statements and even managed to capture the real account holders name. I'll be keeping this somewhere safe until regulators are ready to act.

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Re: Tab account mixed up

How much did you transfer out?

Or did you go for a sneaky small (so hopefully unnoticed) regular standing order with "Home Insurance" in the ref field... :)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Tab account mixed up

TBH this could be test data as I've tried to track this person down from their employer on linkedin and not found a match yet.

I could hand this evidence into the regulators Or....and way more fun...I can see they regularly pay over £100 every month or so to the same hair salon. I could phone them to confirm their next appointment, book myself in for a trim and start the mother of all stalking games....let me know what I should do. :p

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Anonymous Coward

I blame the EU

If they hadn’t forced the sell off, none of this would have happened. It’s a shame BREXIT didn’t happen earlier....

I’ll get my coat....

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This post has been deleted by its author

Silver badge
FAIL

Not surprised

From my experiences with TSB, they couldnt find their arse with both hands and a team of experts helping them.

We spent 2 months trying to open an account with them, they lost the paperwork THREE times, and accidentally destroyed it once.

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Bloody legacy - er, um, new fangled systems!

The sound of silence is deafening over the fact that this is a modern state-of-the-art banking system, dragged off the boring, reliable, legacy Lloyds mainframe and put on edgy x86 cloudy stuff - and - oh dear - it's all gone wrong. If this was a mainframe system, there would be finger-pointing at the platform from every commentator - as it is - nada - nothing to see here, move along...

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Midnight now

And it's still playing silly Bs.

I managed to get in after several aborted attempts around 1900 and managed to move some cash from deposit to current accounts and it took several minutes between page redraws - but it worked.

I then tried to reduce my Credit card debt and it all looked OK until I got to the bit "enter your password to confirm the payment"

Then I got it again, and again and again until I gave up.

It's now midnight so I thought I'd have another go.

Logging in was almost as quick as it was when it was Lloyds but trying to make that payment was another exercise in futility.

I folks get penalised for late or missed payments as a result of this, is TSB liable?

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Paris Hilton

Double, Double Toil and Trouble

"Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.

Thrice and once, the hedge-pig whin'd.

Harpier cries:—'tis time! 'tis time!"

... To render the curs-ed degrade live

I can login ok but when I attempted to make a payment just now, after re-entering password and clicking 'confirm' I got:

'! ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException exception: null'

To be fair you always expect a few bugs in those hard to anticipate/test obscure ans subtle usage cases...

I also didn't get an email and got the text message an hour after too late.

Paris because I expect she was hired to head up the upgrade. And there's no Jedward icon

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Still boned this morning.

Their marketing BS is right - they're truly not 'like other banks'. I'll be switching away pretty damn quickly.

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"We're sorry. We're currently unable to process any requests to close and move accounts."

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Anonymous Coward

What's the betting the bank you move to will also be moving systems at some point in the future, expensive to keep those mainframes spinning

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Anonymous Coward

Mainframes just work and always will.

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Anonymous Coward

Tory Stolen Bank (TSB)

Unsuprisingly managed worse after privatisation, who da thunkit

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cb7

That £13,000

That guy who briefly saw £13,000 more in his account than he had:

He should have transferred it out ASAP. With any luck, the bank would lose the record of the xfer out when rolling back the dodgy changes and he'd have been £13,000 better off :-D

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Anonymous Coward

Re: That £13,000

Do you work for an outsourcer?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: That £13,000

The TSB used to be owned by the people who has money in the bank, it was then sold by the UK Government of the time (Conservative Party)

So unless you are a member of the above political party then taking say £13k of money not belonging to you would be called theft and result in you being arrested as the criminal you are.

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cb7

Re: That £13,000

Huh?

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cb7

Re: That £13,000

It was a freakin joke. Lighten up ffs. And since when did joking about something make someone a criminal??? Jeeez

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