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back to article Fleeing Facebook app users realise what they agreed to in apps years ago – total slurpage

It was the weekend that had it all: promiscuous permissions dragged Google into the Facebook privacy row, Facebook apologised again while at the same time denying anything's wrong with its Android apps, and Tim Cook was totally not smug when he chimed into the privacy debate. It's long been understood by people in tech (less …

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  1. SVV

    This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

    It's bad enough that the old Ts&Cs trick enabled them to grab data on outgoing calls and texts if the user gave permission inadvertantly by installing the FB app. But if they've slurped data on INCOMING texts and calls and used that to build up data graphs on the phone numbers who made the calls and texts (who may well have not installed FB's app and therefore not given permission) then their goose is truly cooked according to some European countries' privacy laws.

    And by being on Android, this is what now drags Google into the whole mess, via its' idea of privacy controls which is basaically the same crap too.

    48 0 Reply
    1. Yes Me Silver badge
      Reply Icon
      Big Brother

      Re: This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

      "could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm"

      Am I supposed to be sorry?

      31 2 Reply
      1. shedied
        Reply Icon

        Re: This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

        Don't take out any full page ads just yet.; the ball, as it were, is in the Zuckman's court.

        3 0 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

      Apparently the Whistleblowers and their their QCs will be holding a press conference later today.

      I look foward to hearing about their latest revelations on Channel 4 News tonight,

      15 0 Reply
    3. Charlie Clark Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

      News for you: most people don't care and won't do anything. This is why regulation is required. Roll on GDPR.

      37 0 Reply
    4. Roml0k
      Reply Icon

      Re: This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

      > But if they've slurped data on INCOMING texts and calls and used that to build up data graphs on the phone numbers who made the calls and texts (who may well have not installed FB's app and therefore not given permission) then their goose is truly cooked according to some European countries' privacy laws.

      I wonder if this kind of slurping doesn't also run afoul of California wiretapping law, which requires consent from all parties involved. IIRC, a 2015 ruling affirmed that collecting metadata without all-party consent can also count as a breach of wiretapping laws.

      14 0 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

        "a breach of wiretapping laws."

        So what.

        Traditional laws, courts, etc. apparently don't apply to modern corporate executives and their legal eagles, and the organisations that fund them. The US Government of the day doesn't seem to care much at all, and the EU (one of the few governmental organisations big enough to matter) doesn't seem to be able to keep up, even though it does occasionally show signs of understanding and caring about the corporate responsibility issues.

        Fix that generic problem, and lots of things (not just Facebook and data privacy) might magically start to improve.

        Meanwhile, maybe it's time to take a more direct, less inhibited, approach to the executives whose names are in the frame. Constructive and plausible suggestions welcome. E.g. did things like #METOO work, or was it a distraction, or somewhere in between?

        7 1 Reply
        1. Ian Michael Gumby
          Reply Icon
          Boffin

          @AC ...Re: This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

          You are confusing criminal vs civil complaints.

          W.R.T criminal complaints... they US Government will charge them and the company will pay out a fine as part of a settlement.

          W.R.T. civil... that's where the company can get soaked. Litigation costs will be in the millions before any chance of getting near settlement talks.

          What FB doesn't want is for the lawsuits to peel back their operations during discovery. This is when the lawyers get to see what really goes on and how much they know as well as what they do with this information. This is Zuck's worst nightmare.

          One other question will also be answered... everyone is enraged at CA getting this data and supposedly using it w Trump's campaign. But what about Clinton and Obama campaigns.

          Then there's the research in to seeing if they can effect people's mental state thru what news they filter in their news feed... All of that will come out.

          6 0 Reply
      2. Ian Michael Gumby
        Reply Icon
        Boffin

        @Roml0k ... Re: This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

        Grey area. Most likely nothing since they didn't 'eavesdrop' on the call and the US Supreme Court has identified the metadata as not being private.

        The real issue is that they slurped data from and about people who did not agree to their T's & C's as well as one other small fact. They could have been spying on minors which brings in a whole nother slew of laws and potential lawsuits.

        To your point... they could face lawsuits over the slurping because those who installed the App were not aware of the level and details that FB was slurping.

        You can bet there will be some serious big dollar lawsuits against FB.

        9 0 Reply
    5. Ian Michael Gumby
      Reply Icon
      Mushroom

      @SVV Re: This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

      The data slurp included Facebook app users' interactions with others who are not on Facebook – meaning people who never gave the Social Network™ permission for anything are probably profiled in its data troves anyway.

      To your point, yes this could do FB serious harm. If the lawyers can find a lead plaintiff. In the US as well as around the world.

      Keep in mind, the fact that FB also has java scripts running on many news sites slurping details about you. This is quasi grey space because you may have allowed your data to be slurped by these sites under the T's and C's of those sites.

      This is most likely why Zuck is trying to go all apologetic because they just ended up in a world of hurt.

      How would you, as a non user of FB find out what they have slurped about you?

      And every company that uses FB scripts will also become suspect.

      Its a huge potential mess...

      8 1 Reply
      1. Someone Else Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        @Ian Michael Gumby -- Re: @SVV This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

        Its a huge potential mess...

        Yaaaaaay MESS!

        Go, Mess, Go!

        Go, Mess, Go!!

        Go, Mess, Go!!!

        ...

        It's March Madness time here on this side of the Pond, so....

        6 0 Reply
        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @Ian Michael Gumby -- @SVV This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

          Weirdly I read your comment in style of Jez from Peep Show.

          Yaaaay Mess!

          0 0 Reply
    6. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: This is what could really do Zuckwit and his company serious harm

      Or hilarious harm depending on your point of view.

      5 0 Reply
  2. D Moss Esq

    “The ability of anyone to know ... who your contacts are, who their contacts are... - from my own point of view it shouldn’t exist”, Cook said.

    Really?

    Then how come just about the only way to transfer your contacts from an old iPhone to a new one is via the cloud?

    Ditto other brands. All your contacts being uploaded to GMail. Or to LinkedIn.

    22 4 Reply
    1. Hugh McIntyre
      Reply Icon

      Re: "only way to transfer your contacts from an old iPhone to a new one is via the cloud"

      Local password protected backup -> restore new iPhone from local backup has worked every time for me. No need for cloud, and all the same contacts are present with no need for a cloud backup for this case at least.

      Now iCloud is useful to keep multiple devices in sync, but even then there's no reason why this cannot be just a per-user backup rather than being data-mined and combined with other users' contacts, which I suspect was Tim Cook's comment.

      17 0 Reply
      1. fidodogbreath
        Reply Icon

        Re: "only way to transfer your contacts from an old iPhone to a new one is via the cloud"

        there's no reason why this cannot be just a per-user backup rather than being data-mined and combined with other users' contacts

        I get sick of people drawing a false equivalency between Apple's and Google's use of user data.

        There's a difference between "data storing" and "data mining." Apple has repeatedly stated that monetizing user data is not part of their business model. Compare that to Google, where it is their entire business model.

        iOS does much more of its processing on the device, vs. Android where it's almost all done in the cloud. For example, when an iOS calendar reminder shows you the estimated travel time to the event location, that integration is performed locally on the device by iOS. Even if you never set up iCloud, stuff like that will still work.

        On Android, that work is done by Google's servers. There's no technical reason why Android needs to send everything to Google to do that, of course; the devices are perfectly capable. It goes to the cloud so that Google can use it to build a surveillance database of everything you do online and offline show you relevant ads.

        4 2 Reply
        1. Someone Else Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: "only way to transfer your contacts from an old iPhone to a new one is via the cloud"

          Apple has repeatedly stated that monetizing user data is not part of their business model.

          As George Leroy Tirebiter once famously said:

          And you can trust me, 'cuz I'm always right, and I never lie.

          3 2 Reply
    2. Martin an gof Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Then how come just about the only way to transfer your contacts from an old iPhone to a new one is via the cloud?

      Ditto other brands. All your contacts being uploaded to GMail. Or to LinkedIn.

      In Android you have the option of, Contacts... Import/Export... Export to .vcf file... select all... Save. This puts all your contacts in a file on your local storage from where you can upload them into your computer (useful also for backup), or simply send them directly via Bluetooth to another phone.

      If you are going to do the latter then under the Import/Export menu there's another option "Share All Contacts". Again, select all, then choose how. My phone offers to share via Messaging, KDE Connect or Bluetooth.

      I've done this a couple of times recently, for example when un-borking my phone which was on an older version of Cyanogenmod and needed (essentially) wiping to install the latest LineageOS. Eldest son had a few more problems migrating from an old Nokia dumphone to a newer smartphone, but only because the Nokia couldn't save a .vcf file or send more than one contact at once. Instead he sent each of his 30-odd contacts individually, which also gave him the opportunity to prune old or duplicate entries.

      In neither case did the contacts ever leave the privacy of our own house.

      As an aside, when setting up new phone with eldest son, 90% of the setup (and disabling of certain things) was done before the SIM was inserted. Yes, WiFi was active, but maybe this step helped prevent a certain amount of data leakage.

      M.

      11 1 Reply
      1. Dan 55 Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        But let's face it, Android's local backup is still clunky, over-complicated, and incomplete. That's your contacts sorted out, what about the rest?

        You should just be able to give a local (S)FTP/SMB drive and from then on it should be as easy and automatic as Google's cloud backup. But it isn't. Odd, that.

        8 0 Reply
        1. Martin an gof Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          (Android local backup)

          Yeah, I hate the way the phone won't connect as mass storage, but for most purposes there are work-arounds. In particular the aforementioned KDE Connect (I am aware that other similar apps are available) allows you to browse the phone's storage over WiFi.

          M.

          5 1 Reply
    3. Zippy's Sausage Factory
      Reply Icon

      It isn't.

      You can still use iTunes to do a full backup and then restore them to another phone. I did it just a few weeks ago.

      4 0 Reply
    4. Starkoman
      Reply Icon

      Completely encrypted

      Q: “How come just about the only way to transfer your contacts from an old iPhone to a new one is via the cloud?”

      A: Apples’ cloud is, basically, a back-up of your iPhone and the best way to customise your new iPhone to how you like it. It's completely encrypted too. Even Apple don't have a ‘key’ to read your private stuff.

      2 0 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: ITunes completely encrypted?

        “Citation needed” (if you don’t mind, please).

        I know that Apple care about privacy from an almost mirror opposite perspective to Google, but, post-Snowden, I’m inclined just not to trust iCloud: has anyone done any deep digging to verify one way or another whether or not data stored in iCloud is definitely strongly encrypted in such a way that Apple (or anyone else other than the rightful owner) cannot decrypt it?

        2 0 Reply
  3. jake Silver badge

    Six comments and I get to be the first?

    Told ya so! Neener!

    Fucking sheeple. If it's shiny, their brains turn off ...

    Oh, and by the way, so does Google, twitter, instagram, yadda yadda ...

    12 27 Reply
  4. Wade Burchette

    Most people do not care

    People take to the streets to protest the NSA and many other government agencies slurping up all their personal information while at the same time handing all that same information over to Facebook, Twitter, et al. People would never allow the police to place a microphone in their home but will pay Amazon and Google to do the same thing. The fact is the majority of people do not care. They will be more than happy to give all their personal information to an entity that wants to know everything about them so long as they provided something for free. Facebook, Twitter, Windows 10, and such may not cost money; that does not mean it is free.

    Well, I do care. And when people ask me why I do not use Facebook or Instagram or Snapchat or anything like that, I always ask them "Why would someone like me not be on that? What do I know that you don't?"

    44 0 Reply
    1. JakeMS
      Reply Icon

      Re: Most people do not care

      I give it a month since all this information is released before sheeple will go back to old habits using Facebook like they knew nothing about this again. We already knew before hand just from their Terms of Service and Privacy(Ha!) Policy.

      People didn't care then and people won't care again in the future. They'll just brush it off like it's false like they have done for years.

      Once this is no longer in the news, everyone will return to using Facebook like it never happened.

      Sad but true.

      32 3 Reply
      1. Dan 55 Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Most people do not care

        Well, I guess we have to take this opportunity to get people delete their Facebook account account and apps. If they won't do that, at the very least uninstall/deactivate Facebook apps and install Tinfoil, Metal, Hermit or similar so their contacts are safer from the big slurp.

        3 0 Reply
      2. stronk
        Reply Icon

        Re: Most people do not care

        Most people care, but don't care enough to do what is necessary: delete their Facebook account and remove all data.

        The reason they don't care enough? I may speak only for myself, but to me Facebook provides services that are irreplaceable. Fundamentally, it's a near-monopoly on users that makes it impossible not to have a Facebook account and still be able to - for example - be efficiently invited to a friend's party, or see your family's holiday photos, or keep up loose contact with distant friends. You lose something tangible with real consequences if you remove yourself from Facebook. There is no paid Facebook option where they don't exploit your data. There's no real alternative to Facebook because nothing has the critical mass of users that Facebook does.

        I haven't deleted my profile because once every few weeks it enables me to do and see things that I would live a more lonely life without.

        One option that should be on the table for regulators: make online social interaction a standardised commoditised function, like email. If I don't mind my data being slurped, I use Gmail. It's 'free', in that my data is recorded and used by Google for profit. If I minded this, I could avoid Gmail and use a paid service from a company with a different business model.

        5 5 Reply
        1. Someone Else Silver badge
          Reply Icon
          FAIL

          @stronk -- Re: Most people do not care

          Fundamentally, it's a near-monopoly on users that makes it impossible not to have a Facebook account and still be able to - for example - be efficiently invited to a friend's party, or see your family's holiday photos, or keep up loose contact with distant friends.

          That is the largest pile of horse exhaust I've heard all month (and I live in America, and am constantly bombarded by pronouncements by Der Lügenführer himself)!

          You know, we still have phones (you probably have one in your pocket; perhaps you should learn how to use it to make a phone call someday). And there are actually two kinds of mail systems still in wide use across the planet.

          Anyone who is going to try to persuade me or anyone else with an IQ above room temperature that Faceplant is any kind of monopoly on media for social contact is so full of shit that his/her eyes are guaranteed to be brown.

          4 2 Reply
        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Most people do not care

          "I may speak only for myself, but to me Facebook provides services that are irreplaceable. Fundamentally, it's a near-monopoly on users that makes it impossible not to have a Facebook account and still be able to - for example - be efficiently invited to a friend's party, or see your family's holiday photos, or keep up loose contact with distant friends."

          People keep saying stuff like this but it's only got that way because you collectively let it happen to you. You can equally collectively change to one or several of the alternatives which you probably also considered irreplaceable in the past and that still remain as viable as they ever were and which those of us who didn't get suck[er]ed in still use. It's up to you to take back control (far more effectively than voting for Brexit did).

          6 0 Reply
        3. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Most people do not care

          There's no real alternative to Facebook because nothing has the critical mass of users that Facebook does.

          Why would the critical mass of users be a main point for you on facebook? Are you trying to collect all the "likes"?

          The main reason for you being on facebook should be your friends and only your friends. If you or your friend go for a different medium (email, snapchat, phone, signal, game chat, irc, irl, El Reg, etc.), then you guys already have a real alternative.

          I haven't deleted my profile because once every few weeks it enables me to do and see things that I would live a more lonely life without.

          So without facebook you'll feel lonely? That's a clear sign that you're addicted to facebook, because that' a withdraw symptom.

          Really. Get the F*ck Out of There. If you truly wanted a less lonely life, then you need to make some real friends outside, or meet your friends irl. Facebook is a medium. It shouldn't be the thing that make you feel lonely when without it.

          6 1 Reply
          1. onefang
            Reply Icon

            Re: Most people do not care

            The only reason I created a FaceBook account is that ALL the activist groups I was working with use it to coordinate their activities. Despite me installing several open source alternatives on my server for us all to try out, they still all use FB. Some where actively hostile to my efforts, so there's a few activist groups I'm no longer involved in.

            1 0 Reply
    2. fidodogbreath
      Reply Icon

      Re: Most people do not care

      People take to the streets to protest the NSA and many other government agencies slurping up all their personal information while at the same time handing all that same information over to Facebook, Twitter, et al. People would never allow the police to place a microphone in their home but will pay Amazon and Google to do the same thing.

      ^^^ THIS ^^^

      7 0 Reply
    3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Most people do not care

      "The fact is the majority of people do not care."

      And the majority of people aren't taking to the streets to protest about govt. slurp. There's going to be a strong correlation between the people who care about corporate slurp and those who care about govt slurp.

      2 0 Reply
  5. J.Smith

    Beggar's belief

    I like the quote at the end "Thank you for believing in this community. I promise to do better for you."

    I think if I believe hard enough, I just know I'll belong some day, and then He may love me.

    21 0 Reply
    1. Mark 85
      Reply Icon

      Re: Beggar's belief

      I like the quote at the end "Thank you for believing in this community. I promise to do better for you."

      I think it needs some background music when you read that... Maybe "Somewhere over the Rainbow"?

      21 0 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Beggar's belief

        I prefer when I see an elephant fly, from Dumbo.

        It fits!

        5 0 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I believe

      I believe that once CEOs and other similar "entrepreneurs" are seen as being personally and individually responsible for their companies' failures (legal, moral, etc), in the same way as these people are currently seen as being personally and individually responsible for their companies successes (megaprofit => megabonus, miniprofit => megabonus), then things might start to improve for the rest of us.

      It could fix a few other companies besides Facebook too.

      What's not to like?

      27 0 Reply
  6. Barry Rueger

    Read the fine print

    I'm not obsessed with such things (or have just given up) but the first time I went to install a Facebook app was the last time. I couldn't believe the breadth of the permissions they demanded.

    Seriously, your average malware laden phishing app is less intrusive. Facebook's apps more or less want complete control of your phone - and we know that only Apple and Google are allowed that!

    33 0 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Read the fine print

      "I'm not obsessed with such things (or have just given up) but the first time I went to install a Facebook app was the last time. I couldn't believe the breadth of the permissions they demanded."

      Most all of the "antivirus" apps on the Play Store request every permission under the sun as well and many also contain the Graph API.

      10 2 Reply
  7. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
    Stop

    You are being watched. The Facebook has a secret system, a machine that spies on you

    John Reese: I never understood why people put all their information on those sites. Used to make our job a lot easier at the CIA.

    Harold Finch: Of course. That's why I created them.

    John Reese: You're telling me you invented online social networking, Finch?

    Harold Finch: The Machine needed more information. People's social graph, their associations. The government had been trying to figure it out for years. Turns out most people were happy to volunteer it. Business wound up being quite profitable, too.

    43 0 Reply
    1. Inspector71
      Reply Icon

      Re: You are being watched. The Facebook has a secret system, a machine that spies on you

      Problem is....it's turning out more like Samaritan in charge rather than The Machine.

      4 0 Reply
  8. Mayday
    Trollface

    Dylan McKay?

    Not this guy?

    http://90210.wikia.com/wiki/Dylan_McKay

    1 0 Reply
  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Round-one to the people, but Its going to be a long war to reclaim privacy rights

    Big Tech still has a lot of politicians in its pocket. Dodging paying tax shows their clout, despite so many broke governments. Plus politicians won't turn their backs on corporations AKA their benefactors, unlike the people. Plus, in the case of Ireland the whole country, from legislators to politicians to workers, are a captive audience for US tech giants!

    What this shows though, is that the mainstream media is finished being a cheerleader for Big-Tech at their own expense. This only took a decade of diminishing returns and their own near extinction to happen. But anyway, what this shows is that political corruption or interference is a red-light, in a way that the Snowden mass Government spying incident wasn't.

    There's probably disgruntled media involved too who are tired of not being paid but told instead that Big-Tech gets to have a free pass. Think Murdoch and co... Then there's the reluctant media who are just following the herd. They'll be the first to drop out... After that we'll see a clearer picture of what next.

    5 4 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Round-one to the people, but Its going to be a long war to reclaim privacy rights

      Round 1? Come off it, the people have been knocked about for at least 10 rounds and have just received a blow that actually knocked some sense into them. Their corner is frantically applying Vaseline onto their cuts to avoid a stoppage.

      8 1 Reply
      1. VinceH
        Reply Icon

        Re: Round-one to the people, but Its going to be a long war to reclaim privacy rights

        "Come off it, the people have been knocked about for at least 10 rounds and have just received a blow that actually knocked some sense into a worryingly small number of them"

        FTFY. Sadly. :(

        (Based on my own observations, anyway).

        10 1 Reply
  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Facebook vs the Federation - Is the future going to be Star-Wars, Star-Trek or Blakes-7?

    Hollywood likes to make reboots of Star-Wars and Star-Trek with pollyannic endings. But I fear we're heading towards a darker Blakes-7 Federation-controlled future.

    Disruptive Vision: Like Banksters studying bonds or the yield curve, Facebook & Google are looking out 20-50-100 years and asking: Why not disrupt everything?! Be the world's storefront... Act as the data broker between every brand, every firm and every human... Hell, just become them all, cut out the rest entirely.

    Its hard for humans vs computers to appreciate this in its entirety, or how drip feeding small bits of personal info over such a long time frame will haunt us. But beyond political interference, imagine zero-transparency or control over the cost of every single thing you buy. That's their vision!

    The media is doing some great reporting right now after years of just parroting Zuck-quotes. But it needs to focus on what Zuck says to investors in conference calls. In particular, look at the Facebook-Experian link and 3rd party data-brokers overall. Investigate how they merge offline & online data!

    Then consider, this is only the beginning. Look at CES 2017/2018. Big tech wants in on everything. Imagine every device and appliance 'phoning home' your juicy personal info, monetization of car tracking is already here.

    Cast a wider net too and look at Microsoft and Windows-10. Its basically Facebook & Google combined! The EU is aware but its not moving fast enough. Linux is a viable alternative, but most users don't know about it, and as long as shops don't offer it, everyone must pay Microsoft to be 'slurped'.

    Unfortunately most people in my circle aren't even aware of what happened in the past week or so. The ones least aware are the ones most buried in WhatsApp - Facebook - Google etc, including my SO! At a guess, 9 out 10 people won't change their habits at all. Change will probably only come from those who fear having their power taken away, namely politicians.

    Big Tech has shown just how dangerous it really is... Welcome to surveillance capitalism folks. What big tech is doing is colonization on a digital level. Its time to realize that 'We are the Native Peoples now'!

    26 0 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Be the world's storefront.

      And over at Amazon, a certain Mr Bezos blows his top.

      "That's my patch, keep off!"

      Now there is talk of the EU considering breaking up Google. Bring it on. Can't come a day too soon.

      Close down FB , Twitter etc while you are at it.

      17 2 Reply
    2. Adrian 4
      Reply Icon

      Re: Facebook vs the Federation - Is the future going to be Star-Wars, Star-Trek or Blakes-7?

      Try Ready Player One.

      The baddies are Facebook.

      5 2 Reply
  11. I3N
    Flame

    Cook said what ...

    in China, no less.

    Let me know when Cook offers Roy Jones a job.

    Thought the purpose of killing the chicken was to scare the monkey ....

    7 1 Reply

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