back to article Fancy owning a two-seat Second World War Messerschmitt fighter?

A super-rare Spanish copy of the Messerschmitt Me109 fighter of Second World War infamy, which was flown by both British and German aces, has gone up for auction. The Hispano Buchon, a licence-built copy of the Messerschmitt Me 109G, is the only surviving two-seat model in the world. The aircraft was flown by both Luftwaffe …

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        1. JimmyPage Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: before they convinced the pointy haired generals it was just coincidence..

          reminiscent of the D-Day crossword scare.

          On a related note, did anyone watch the documentary on Britains H-Bomb ?? I was intrigued to see that even the crew were no allowed to see the actual bomb itself. It was loaded behind curtains while they were in the plane.

          So what was so secret about the shape ???

          1. hplasm Silver badge
            Coat

            Re: before they convinced the pointy haired generals it was just coincidence..

            "So what was so secret about the shape ???"

            Knowing the MOD, it was probably a normal bomb, shaped like an 'H'...

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 9th largest air force in the world at the time

          Something in the water? They're not getting near my precious bodily fluids!

          - Gen. J. D. Ripper

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 9th largest air force in the world at the time

          Look carefully at the backdrop as the bomb is ridden. They were bombing a USAF radar site, I think it was Thule.

        4. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge

          Re: 9th largest air force in the world at the time

          ...All well and good - except they apparently nailed the console set up and dialogue so well, the AF had a conniption, thought they'd been spying...

          That would be Kubrick's well-known mania for accuracy. It came to the fore in 2001 - the spacecraft were all created after extensive consultations with NASA engineers, and the early humanoids after extensive consultation with paleolithic anthropologists at the Smithsonian (with primate behavioural specialists from the New York Zoo).

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: 1969 film

      I believe the huge airforce thing is true.

      They used a bunch of contemporary planes for fliming purposes, becauase they were the same speed as the fighters / bombers.

      They had a couple of B17s, because they were the right speed and also because they had lots of gunports that you could mount cameras in. And there was space for equipment and people - and they could be in the middle of the action.

      For the ultimate shots though (two fighters closing head-on), a B17 wasn't suitable. As it would be in the way, and crashes are bad.

      So they built themselves a gimballed steadycam equivalent. And slung it on a long line dangling from a helicopter above the fighters. With cameran dangling of course...

      So he hung there, in mid-air, with a fighter flying straight towards him at several hundred miles an hour. Filming and dangling and swaying and waiting for the pilot to fly round him.

      Balls of steel...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 1969 film

      Another great war movie - The Dambusters....I read that they couldn't get enough aircraft, and so they used copies of the same strip of film, overlayed on each other to give the impression of more aircraft in flying sequences. Apparently, if you look carefully, you can see some Lancasters flying backwards.

      This is the same film that couldn't film any actual post-dam-bust footage, so used some existing newsreel footage of flooding in the deep south of the USA. Again, if you look carefully, the shots of the flooded Ruhr valley feature negro farmers.

    3. Pedigree-Pete Bronze badge
      Pint

      Allied and Axis things together.

      My Morse code lecturer was in the Merchant Service during WWII.

      He had a photo of a Nazi battleship stern to stern with a Royal Navy battleship, I think in Buens Aires. PP

  1. Zog_but_not_the_first Silver badge
    Trollface

    Are we sure...

    That the Messerschmitt isn't a Fokker?

    1. Dom 3

      Re: Are we sure...

      And for those that don't get the reference...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8Yf5B6GbYk

      1. Jemma Silver badge

        Re: Are we sure...

        Am I allowed to feel smug that I did?

    2. Francis Boyle Silver badge

      Focke

      not Fokker.

      (Which incidentally is the name of my new band.)

    3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      That the Messerschmitt isn't a Fokker?*

      I knew it would not be long before that happened.

      *Now known as "Dutch Space" following just too many people taking the p**s out of their name.

  2. ida71u

    Illegal to charge VAT in secondhand items ! But HMRC changed the rules to line the governments coffers so VAT registered businesses have to charge VAT on their sales, even if the item was originally sold with VAT the first time.

    On the plane, its a two seater which I don't believe the Germans ever built, its running a British engine & was built in Spain, so I'm fairly certain its not a Bf or ME anything !

    I've flown a Mustang, that was converted to a two seater after the war, but at least it was a pucka 1944 built warbird :) best hour of my life.

  3. Dr_N Silver badge
    Joke

    Daily Mail

    Maybe the Daily Mail will run a kickstarter to buy up this piece of their heritage?

  4. Detective Emil
    Headmaster

    "starting at $6m plus VAT"

    Just a moment: this tedious document says sales of military aircraft are exempt. I don't expect the auctioneer's premium is, though.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sort of strange...

    ...to see Galland and Stanford-Tuck having a bit of a chuckle together - nice to see but it belies the tragedy of WW2 behind it all.</thoughtful>

    1. Lars Silver badge

      Re: Sort of strange...

      Your point is thoughtful but it's not strange, Americans meet in Hiroshima, boxers shake hands.

      Perhaps it's true that for some Brits the war never ended, that would be sort of strange, very strange.

    2. Lars Silver badge

      Re: Sort of strange...

      Came to think of it, would it feel even more strange to you if you knew that Robert Stanford Tuck was Jewish.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Sort of strange...

        I am so glad to hear that.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Vought F4U Corsair

    As a young lad I was obsessed with old WWII aircraft and favored the Messerschmitt and the Mitsubishi A6M Zero.

    That was until I watched the TV show "Baa Baa Black Sheep" and my focus turned to the folding wing Corsair that Robert Conrad (Pappy Boyington) flew.

    I even begged my father to get me a pure white Bull Terrier dog like the one in the show.

  7. IWVC

    Some further thoughts

    To pick up on a few comments. Around 500 Me109G-12s (the 2 seat version) were built from 1944 all converted from existing G series airframes. They were in response to the loss of trainee pilots especially in take off and landing accidents. The second seat took up most of the original fuel tank so they were very short ranged and used for take off and landing instruction.Few retained armaments.

    Bf / Me 109s did not have a successful engine mounted cannon installation until the "F" model - post Battle of Britain. The two guns firing through the prop had a reduced rate of fire due to interruptor gear. Possibly resulting in retaining 3 blade props even with the more powerful DB605. Original 109s had two blade props.

    I'm not sure if the one offered for sale is airworthy. There is one other "G12" flying being a conversion of a single seat Buchon in 2013. That one has interchangeable RR Merlin 500 and DB DB605 engines. Most of the flying is likely to be carried out with the Merlin being a lot less rare than the DB605.

    The inverted V engine is possibly easier to service as most of the valves etc can be reached by someone standng on the ground whereas Merlin installations required ladders and / or platforms. RR did consider an inverted V for the Merlin but legend has it that such a configuration was considered too Germanic....

    BoB film used a B25 Mitchell as a camera platform rather than B17.

    As well as Standford Tuck, other RAF pilots contributed including Ginger Lacey and Douglas Bader.

  8. Jet Set Willy

    Hawker Typhoon for me - would love to see one of those flying, even though they are/were big noisy bastards (apparently). However, a Mosquito flying near me would legitimately make me blub if I saw one. I once worked with a baker who was an engineer on them. You would not believe the stories about fixing up a mostly wooden plane to go back to war!

  9. Chairo

    If i had the choice

    I'd opt for a me163. It would probably kill me, but I am sure it would be worth the experience.

  10. This post has been deleted by its author

  11. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

    ME-262

    ... replica. Do want.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8HblYdUUcg

  12. Kaltern Silver badge

    I'll take mine without the Hakenkreuz please.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Hakenkreuz?

      All I see on it are Balkenkreuz...

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    joke

    forgive me if youve heard this one

    An English ladies social club is throwing a garden party and they decide to invite several distinguished veterans to speak at the event.

    The first speaker, a Swedish flying ace steps up to the podium and makes his presentation about flying in the war. During the question and answer session after his presentation an older lady in a big hat asks him if he ever had a close call.

    He replied, 'One time when I was on patrol I flew out of a cloud to find three f*uckers coming straight at me out of the sun!...'

    A gasp arose from the audience and the moderator, concerned about the salty language, quickly stepped in to add that 'A Fokker was a type of aircraft'

    The pilot replied, 'Ya maaaybeee so but dees f*ckers were flying Messerschmidts'

    now Ill retire until such time as there is a suitable story to post my favorite tapeworm joke.

    Ill get my coat

    1. Lars Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: joke

      One has to assume, as this has to be a true story, of course, that the Swede was William Y. Anderson from the U.S. Army Air Forces as there was no other Swedish aces.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces

      1. Holtsmark

        Re: joke

        Q: What is the title of the world`s thinnest book?

        A: "Swedish war heroes" (Alternative: "Highlights of Dutch cuisine")

        Q: How do you sink a Swedish battleship?

        A: You put it to sea (Vasa anyone?)

        Q: How do you sink a Swedish submarine?

        A: You dive down and knock on the hatch. They will promptly open it to see who is there.

        Q: How do you sink that same submarine again?

        A: You dive down and knock on the hatch. They will open a window to tell you that they will not fall for that trick twice.

        ..Now guess which side of the No/Se border I am from :)

  14. Potemkine! Silver badge
    Headmaster

    After the war, the Spanish had continued to use Buchons and even Heinkel 111 bombers

    IIRC, Spain had very few He 111, the ones used during the civil were lended by Germany but left behind afer the war. Spain made its own variant of the bomber, the CASA 2.111. Those are the ones shown in the movie "Battle Of Britain", easily spotted from He111 because of their Merlin engine.

    1. IWVC

      CASA 2.111 engines

      We have a static running Merlin at the RAF Museum occasionally. The owner told me that it was originally built in WW2 for a Lancaster or Halifax, post war was fitted in a Hastings transport (derived from Halifax) and was then rebuilt as a Merlin 500 series fitted in a CASA 2.111. Must have been a rare engine to have powered types of the principal bombers of WW2 from both sides. :-)

  15. Ken 16 Silver badge
    Happy

    Hurricane or P.40 for me

    I know my limits but 'might' be able to push them enough to fly one of the older more forgiving aircraft. So far the only 1940's military aircraft I've flown was an L-4 Grasshopper.

  16. Calum Morrison

    Extra Reg interest...

    The first time I flew into San Francisco I was thrilled (geek that I am) to see the giant airship shed that I'd just recently read about on El Reg. Later on that holiday, I chanced upon the Tillamook air museum in northern Oregon located in a similarly vast hangar (seriously - the museum took up less than half of it and didn't want for exhibits) and in there what I confidently thought at first was a 109 turned out to be a Buchon that had starred in the Battle of Britain.

    Great museum btw and not a hell of a distance from the Spruce Goose at McMinnville if you're in the area...

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