back to article If this laptop is so portable, where's the keyboard, huh? HUH?

Welcome again to On-Call, in which The Register tries to liven up Fridays with reader-contributed stories of tech support traumas. This week, meet "Norman" who just last year took a frankly astounding support call at the law firm where he then worked. "One of my users called to complain about her upgrade from an old desktop …

      1. Will Godfrey Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: classic!

        Good question.

        I've seen plenty of 680nF and 820nF caps, and I suppose there's a 750nF one in the E24 series (but never seen one). 720 isn't in any series I know of.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: classic!

          I think, perhaps, the joke is now on us...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: classic!

        A 710 cap is on your engine. It's only seen clearly about 45 degrees of the time.

        1. Bernard M. Orwell
          Headmaster

          Re: classic!

          Yeah.. I've never come across a 4" floppy either. 3.5" and 5.25" yes, but never a 4".

          1. Francis Boyle Silver badge
            Coat

            <Looks in pants>

            Er, I'll have you know I'm a grower.

          2. John G Imrie

            4" floppy

            They where a thing according to wikipidia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk_variants#IBM_DemiDiskettes

            1. BebopWeBop

              Re: 4" floppy

              Fits with the Lotus notes though (can't be bothered to see whether it was IBM owned at the time, but it would run on the hardware). Surely a piece for the museum?

          3. rmason

            Re: classic!

            Specific IBM systems only. They were definitely a thing.

          4. graeme leggett Silver badge

            Re: classic!

            Did you ever encounter the 3-inch floppy as used in Amstrad computers?

            1. Guy Geens

              Re: classic!

              Did you ever encounter the 3-inch floppy as used in Amstrad computers?

              Yes. On a Spectrum +3.

              1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                Re: classic!

                "Yes. On a Spectrum +3."

                Which was produced after Amstrad bough the Spectrum brand etc.

                I think the only other non-Amstrad computer I saw using 3" floppies was the Tatung Einsten. No doubt others did to, but I never saw any.

            2. John G Imrie

              Re: classic!

              On an Amstrad PCW. My mum's first published book is still on one somewhere.

            3. Alistair
              Windows

              Re: classic!

              my mom's office way back had 14 of those damned Amstrads.

          5. Mark 85

            Re: classic!

            As I recall some of the early IBM workstations (mid-70's?) used 6". I'm trying to recall but I remember seeing a 12" but I don't remember where or for what machine.

      3. chivo243 Silver badge

        Re: classic!

        turn it over 710 - OIL !!

      4. MJI Silver badge

        Re: classic!

        Ever see M075 written on the roads?

        1. Sir Runcible Spoon

          Re: classic!

          Ever see M075 written on the roads?

          Only when everyone else is driving in the wrong direction!

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: classic!

        I get the 710 part, but what's a "cap"? :/

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: classic!

      At least she didn't go completely of the deep end and complain about "you should have told me sooner..."

      A very good point. If her computer was being changed for something physically very different, a few minutes training during the install would not go amiss. Eg, here's the charger for when it's not in the dock. Here's how to remove it properly and safely from the dock etc. (some lock in place and have a physical eject button).

  1. Adam 52 Silver badge

    I am currently having a row with my IT department, who seem to think that a laptop screen and keyboard are suitable for someone who works full-time on a computer.

    I sent them the regulations and they've said that they'll see how things develop. Which I guess is code for "come back when you're crippled."

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      A colleague was diagnosed with an RSI on his mouse hand's thumb that was only going to get worse. A proper investigation by the H&S people - very commendable. Recommendations were made about alleviation - and for suitable "mouse" device solutions. When he retired several years later he was still going round the loop for the "mouse device solution" to be provided.

      1. Alistair
        Windows

        "mouse device solution" = Trackball!

      2. David Roberts
        Windows

        RSI and mouse

        I was starting to suffer something similar and bought myself a Logitech ball mouse.

        Stickered it up as my property and took it with me when I left.

        Sometimes life is too short to fight the small stuff when your long term health is at risk.

      3. Nick Kew

        RSI

        I had a crippling RSI some years back. Learned to use a mouse left-handed. And gave up some mouse-intensive ways of wasting time.

        It took quite a while - many months of often-severe pain - but the RSI went away. Now I can use a mouse (or a laptop device) with either hand. And perhaps most importantly, I know the early signs of RSI, and can modify my computing behaviour any time it threatens.

    2. Lee D Silver badge

      Conversely, I basically issue no laptops.

      Sorry, but I don't see how you can say both "I need dual monitors to do my job" and then "I need a laptop". They are both just a status symbol and mutually exclusive.

      To be honest, I can't justify a laptop for anyone, but I get overruled (always for the most senior staff, always for the ones who use the computers least, always for the ones who conveniently don't have a PC of their own at home...).

      At home, I have a gaming laptop because it's a monster and does everything - it's a luxury I couldn't afford for many years and is now getting on to 8 years old. I get my money's worth out of it, and it's portable because it comes on holiday with me, goes round mate's houses, etc. all the time. It's the "best compromise" between a powerful PC, a portable device and something to watch a movie on on a plane and load up to quickly check Facebook. But in work, I only ever use a real PC, or a remote session to a real PC inside the network from such a device.

      For work, I can't justify the expense, the fragility, the cost of repair, the potential of theft, the performance hit or the screen-size/docking station/extra mouse/extra screen on top of the cost of the laptop itself. I'm sure there are jobs where portability is required, and I tend to find they are issued Toughbooks etc. for a reason - 1) they look undesirable so there's no status symbol to having one, 2) nobody's going to bother to nick them, 3) when they drop, they usually survive and they are out in the harshest environments where you wouldn't want a flimsy tablet etc. But most office jobs aren't one that needs such access.

      You want a laptop? Fine. You get the cheapest junk possible and then in via RD to a real machine inside the isolated network. It's literally an access terminal. Because when you get into encryption, VPN, file sync, offline device/file protection (e.g. people sticking in USB sticks into it) etc. then an offline, disconnected machine is the worst possible thing to try to manage over just "load up the RD app on your iPad/tablet/laptop/PC/Mac/smartphone and go here".

      In a lawyer's office, especially, I would not want to manage the logistics of issuing a laptop that goes home with them with all kinds of stuff on it. With DPA case law, you have to be able to PROVE that it was encrypted if it's ever lost, you know - the NHS has been fined for being UNABLE to prove that a disk it sent through the post and lost was encrypted when it left the sender. That's easier said than done especially if some information leak happens in a serious case and the judge is breathing down your neck about it. I'm sure a lawyer understands that. And they use stuff like LexisNexus etc. all the time so they're used to using cloud and website services to get their job done.

      Sorry, but if I was a billionaire and owned a company just for fun and gave everyone a staff Lamborghini... you're still not getting a laptop for taking stuff home. I'll give you a way to access work if you need it - a cheap tablet with remote access. But a laptop that travels is the worst idea imaginable. "I want to take all the network home with me on a battery powered device and have it work like I never left the office". Nope. You'll take a screen home with you and look at your computer on your office desk instead.

      1. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge

        What rubbish. Everyone at Large Firm(TM) I work for uses laptops. They are not status symbols - reasonably powerful, but not ultra thin. Everything you mention has been sorted - they are encrypted, all data are synced, it's not possible to extract data via USB stick, and VPN software is built in and easy to use.

        The only criticism I'd make is that the keyboard is standard for a laptop i.e. not that good. Everyone at work uses a proper keyboard. Most people have at least one extra external monitor - I have two, as it is useful for dedicating one screen to specific applications (the third monitor is rather old, definitely not for status..).

        I've used multiple monitors for years. Everyone can increase productivity by moving to two monitors unless their main screen is unfeasibly large. Three monitors takes slightly more planning, but if one is rotated to portrait can be very useful. Beyond three it's difficult to see all the monitors at once.

        When taking it home the laptop gets put on a shelf, plugged into a KVM, and another monitor attached via Displayport. The only noticeable change from working in the office is trying to copy files over the network.

        1. rmason

          I'm with Binky.

          Utter tosh. A decent (you know, business spec) laptop has all the performance of a desktop.

          Where does your cost saving work in the case of a disaster.

          I assume you have a spare PC sat about for every user, in an offsite location?

          No?

          That's a shame, all we need to do is make it clear to users they MUST take their laptops home with them. Our building could burn down today, and we'd be up and running within the hour. It's a small but crucial part of our DR strategy.

          Let me guess, you spend a *lot* of your time saying no to people, and telling them why they can't have or do what they are asking for, don't you?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            A desk of your own. Why?

            Like many people in the profession I spend a lot of time working across different offices, partner organisations and at home. We don’t have fixed desks, do use encrypted laptops with end point security and do have a software configuration management tool which can show the software has been installed and is switched on. The level of lockdown for ‘non technical’ roles can be a bit frustrating but we are backed up with a good service desk who can manage most installs remotely. The laptop comes home every night and yes that is our business continuity plan. We have multiple physically separated Data centres and the only paper I rely on is the current notebook Stuck into my laptop bag. Our VPN solution is non intrusive but secure so I can work from anywhere with a broadband connection. I have worked with Citrix, VDI and virtual pc solutions but they all cause licensing issues for some software and invariably a poorer user experience than a reasonable laptop with a decent broadband connection. And of course in my home office I do use a large monitor and separate keyboard and mouse

        2. Floydian Slip
          Boffin

          Concur

          I've been using twin screens (with a laptop) since about 2003. I struggle to be anywhere near as productive when out and about and am reduced to a single screen.

          When I set up on my own, I bought a decent PC (just upgraded) and since 2013 have been using a 3 screen arrangement, one of which is in portrait for working on A4 docs in a reasonable size.

          Was easy to achieve, an inexpensive dual-screen graphics card and the PC's VGA output play nicely together and Windows has a screen rotate facility inbuilt so I can have 3 x landscape or 2 x landscape and 1 x portrait with a swivel of the monitor and a couple of clicks

        3. terrythetech

          Terry Pratchett managed 6 monitors.

          “Why do I have six monitors?” he said. “Because I don’t have room for eight.”

      2. Fading
        Coffee/keyboard

        Many years ago...

        The IT kit at work whilst not top of the range was pretty good with performance and functionality out of reach of most wage slaves. I now sit in the office with an aging nehalem i7 on a dead flesh Dell keyboard, a trackball older then the first iphone squinting at a 24 inch fat bezel 1080p monitor.

        That's why I prefer to work from home - the equipment is much better.....

      3. Peter2 Silver badge

        In a lawyer's office, especially, I would not want to manage the logistics of issuing a laptop that goes home with them with all kinds of stuff on it.

        Why not?

        As the IT Manager of a law firm i'd comment that as all case files are stored on the case management system and not on individual PC's, to access anything to do any work you have to remote in to our remote access server. Therefore, nothing sensitive is stored on the laptops even if they do get stolen.

      4. theN8

        "Sorry, but I don't see how you can say both "I need dual monitors to do my job" and then "I need a laptop". They are both just a status symbol and mutually exclusive."

        Oh no!! I best not admit that I'm typing this reply on my work issued Dell Lattitude E5470 with an i5, 16gb RAM and 500GB SSD - all hooked up to my triple 24" Dell U2414 displays. All secured by Bitlocker Encryption, with a work VPN configured as standard in Windows 10 - so when I finish for the day, I can simply un-dock it and take it home. Imagine that!!

        I'll get my coat, mines the one with the 2 tonne Dell power brick in the pocket...

      5. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        "In a lawyer's office, especially, I would not want to manage the logistics of issuing a laptop that goes home with them with all kinds of stuff on it."

        In a lawyer's office the logistics of providing a full size PC at the various courts they might have to attend would be even harder to manage.

        1. Nolveys

          In a lawyer's office the logistics of providing a full size PC at the various courts they might have to attend would be even harder to manage.

          Sorry, our policy is to not provide laptops. However, you can take that desktop over there. It's tied to a dolly with a rope for your convenience.

          You'll also notice the deep cycle lead-acid battery and inverter. You'll need to detach the battery from the dolly, charge it and then put it back. The battery charger is permanently mounted on the top shelf of that cabinet over there.

          You'll have to lift the battery over your head, put it on the shelf, connect the leads and then turn on the charger. Be careful though, the battery is about 40kg. It was originally about 30kg, but I attached some bricks to the bottom to help prevent theft.

          You will need to provide your own monitor and keyboard. Company policy doesn't allow for people outside of IT to use mice.

      6. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Conversely, I basically issue no laptops.

        "Sorry, but I don't see how you can say both "I need dual monitors to do my job" and then "I need a laptop". They are both just a status symbol and mutually exclusive."

        I'm writing this from my Really Big Company (TM) work laptop, docked, using a full-size keyboard and dual external monitors. Frankly, all of the above are an absolute necessity. I'm one of the more computer- and tech-savvy people here (what do you expect from a Register reader?), and end up taking the laptop to a LOT of meetings, where I'm expected to be able to do work on it in real-time. Back at the desk, I *typically* have 8-12 windows open, and during much of the day need to look at one window while working in another one - hence the dual displays. None of this is a status symbol, and I'm definitely not "senior staff". Oh, and the laptop only goes home with me when I'm expecting to not be able to get to the office (e.g. blizzard), as I'm not supposed to work from home. Really Big Company (TM) doesn't even issue desktops to workers.

        (AC for obvious reasons.)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Conversely, I basically issue no laptops.

          "I'm writing this from my Really Big Company (TM) work laptop, docked, using a full-size keyboard and dual external monitors."

          Which is fine if you also use the laptop undocked. What annoys me is the waste of a setup like that where the laptop spends it's entire life docked and the lid is never even opened, which seems quite commonplace. For that, a desktop PC does the job with a much simpler setup, much lower embodied costs, and generally better performance and greater flexibility. (e.g. I have 2 ssds and a large trad HD in this one.)

          Laptops are still a set of compromises to achieve a particular form factor, weight and battery life, and the ergonomics are awful. No objection to laptops for those that need them, but they're things I use when I must, not through choice.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Conversely, I basically issue no laptops.

            "What annoys me is the waste of a setup like that where the laptop spends it's entire life docked and the lid is never even opened, which seems quite commonplace."

            Hot-desking?. In that case, however, thin clients might be even more to the point.

      7. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

        They are both just a status symbol and mutually exclusive

        Rubbish. I have dual screens and a laptop (sometimes I work from home). When I'm working from home, I connect my laptop to my monitor at home to make sure I don't get eyestrain.

        In short, in my use-case, laptop and dual-screen is both usable and needed. And I'm very, very glad I don't work where you might have control over my equipment.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "And I'm very, very glad I don't work where you might have control over my equipment."

          And I'm equally glad I don't work where the laptops-only crowd hold sway.

        2. Omgwtfbbqtime

          Same here - twin monitors and full size keyboard in the office hung off an encrypted Yoga1 (the desk is shared with another, we just don't go into the office on the same days). At home I plug it into twin monitors and a full size keyboard too.

          No I don't close the lid - it's effectively a 3 monitor setup - 2x 22" monitors for work, laptop screen for distractions - I mean work related IM.

      8. Kubla Cant

        I don't see how you can say both "I need dual monitors to do my job" and then "I need a laptop".

        Here I am, working on a laptop that has dual monitors, keyboard and mouse connected to it. The monitors are more-or-less essential for my job.

        When I have to do out-of-hours support, or when I work from home, I can carry the laptop home in my backpack and use the monitors etc that I have at home anyway. I can also use it on the train, where I connect to the company's secure VPN via a mobile hotspot. Neither would be possible without the laptop.

        This has been the usual arrangement in most of the companies where I've worked over the past five years. Fortunately, they haven't had an idiot like Lee D making the decisions.

      9. jelabarre59

        Sorry, but I don't see how you can say both "I need dual monitors to do my job" and then "I need a laptop". They are both just a status symbol and mutually exclusive.

        I work remote, and have 2 external monitors (plus the wirelwss KB/mouse). Occasionally though I need to go to a customer site, and dragging around a desktop, monitor & all the accessories just wouldn't work. Yes, your regular permanently in-office staff (or even someone who was only working remote and never had to take their system with them) could readily work from a "desktop" type system. So not necessarily a "status symbol".

        Of course, many of your management types are probably better off with the desktop solution, if for nothing else it keeps them tied to their desk and away from people actually doing work.

      10. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Have you ever tried to lug a desktop computer out to a piece of automated equipment, plug in, tune the servo drives, load the program, and verify functionality? Oh, and same day, go back to doing CAD work at the desk, editing said programs, and needing to compare the programs to the drawings and the manuals to bring changes into all three?

        Laptops rule the day for field service techs/engineers, and very, very few engineers will want less than 2 monitors, due to productivity.

        Ask any competent programmer, and they will gladly have as many monitors as IT can give them, just so they don't need to switch between windows.

        Desktops/towers have their places, but laptops (more like mobile workstations) are actually a better fit for more businesses now. The built-in UPS is also a handy feature.

        1. onefang

          "Have you ever tried to lug a desktop computer"

          Two desktop computers, one monitor, keyboard, mouse, assorted cables for them, three routers, one WiFi AP, and enough network cables for a large room full of geeks. In my large hybrid backpack, on the bus, every second Saturday. Sometimes would have to walk home if things lasted until after the buses stopped and I couldn't get a lift home.

    3. MrKrotos

      I am currently having a row with my IT department, who seem to think that a laptop screen and keyboard are suitable for someone who works full-time on a computer.

      I sent them the regulations and they've said that they'll see how things develop. Which I guess is code for "come back when you're crippled."

      I have read said regulations but see no mention of "laptop is no good for long periods", please share these regulations.

      1. Adam 52 Silver badge

        "please share these regulations."

        Certainly.

        http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/l26.htm

        Which says:

        "Screen: stable image, adjustable, readable, glare/reflection-free Keyboard: usable, adjustable, detachable, legible"

        Now there might be laptops with adjustable screens and detachable keyboards (the original Compaqs had detachable keyboards, for example) but if they exist they are rare.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          "glare/reflection-free"

          I was around, and teaching IT, when those regs first came in, so naturally, it was part of the job to teach the basics of regs as part of the course. Lots of companies suddenly started supplying anti-glare filters. And yet nowadays, so many screens, bot standalone and laptops, have highly polished glass fronts. On the other hand, it is, in many cases, easier to adjust so as to minimise glare and reflections because they are flat, rather than the convex curve of CRTs where it was almost impossible to avoid glare and reflections without a coating or add-on filter. I still see people sitting at a glass fronted screen with their back to the window and wonder what damage they are causing to their eyes/vision.

        2. J.G.Harston Silver badge

          +1 to that.

          I need my keyboard within about six inches of my body - as that's the length of my forearms. I need my monitor about 18 inches away from my body - as that's where normal eyes focus comformtably for reading. Try doing that with a laptop.

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