back to article Republican tax bill ready to rescue hard-up tech giants, struggling rich

Wealthy individuals and businesses can direct their underlings to ice the Dom Perignon and fuel their private jets in celebration of the US Senate's expected passage of the Republican tax bill on Wednesday. It would have happened Tuesday but for a procedural problem that required two provisions to be removed from the bill. The …

Re: I don't get it

Here is the problem with supply side economics and every first year econ student knows its. The basic fact of the supply and demand curve.

Lets look at how they say trickle down is supposed to work:

Give businesses more capital and they will hire people to increase production.

But increasing production increases supply, and increasing supply with a static demand means prices have to go DOWN. No business is going to invest in new employees and capital just to see revenue per widget drop. So they will sit on the cash, buy back shares, give bigger bonuses to C-level management, or make financial investments.

You have to work on the demand side because increasing demand always increases supply side revenue. Don't believe me, it's Christmas, look at the prices of the hot toys on eBay.

If the demand is there, businesses will increase production without external forces. Or their competitors (existing or new ones) will.

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Re: I don't get it

"Supply-side economics: works EVERY TIME it is tried! JFK, Regan, Trump."

I guess that depends what you mean by "works". Supply-side economics "works" as intended by giving the rich more money. But for me what "works" bst is a slowly but steadily growing economy, maybe with some wobbles but no major crashes, where both average and median incomes steadily rise (inequality is growing less).

Supply-side economics might make an initial economic improvement (enjoyed mostly by the richest) but results after a few years in a big crash and long recession / depression. Happened in the 30s, happened with with Reagan, happened with Bush II (I don't really know about JFK).

The very fact that you are claiming it "works" with Trump before the cuts have even come into effect shows that for you this is a matter of faith, not evidence.

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@bombastic bob

Calling Trump's tax cuts "supply side" is laughable. Reagan really did reform the tax system, and cut rates significantly while closing loopholes which made things more equitable all around. Trump's tax cuts are concentrated almost totally on corporations, when there is zero evidence that giving corporations more money will cause them to hire more people or give raises - just look at the crickets when Gary Cohn was addressing a roomful of CEOs a month ago and he asked for them to raise their hands if they they were going to use the windfall to hire more people or increase investment and only a few did causing him to ask "where's the rest?"

A couple companies offered well-timed "we're giving workers $1000 bonuses thanks to the tax cut", one of them being AT&T. Then the next day (today) AT&T announced they were laying off 700 installation techs. Because that's the thing, companies only pay workers enough to hire/keep them, they aren't going to pay them more just because they can afford it. They only hire enough workers to do the work they need done, they aren't going to hire extra workers just because they can afford it. The tax cuts will go toward stock buybacks to raise their stock price, so that the executives who are compensated based on the stock price either directly or indirectly can get richer.

Even Laffer conceded that his curve on a napkin claiming tax cuts will increase economic growth enough to pay for themselves was written in the late 70s when the top tax rate was 70%, and wouldn't hold at significantly lower rates.

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Re: I don't get it

The rich arent also just rich guys and gals spending their money on luxuries. Many of them own business. CBS ran a study on three families - single mother, dual income no kids college professors, and another couple who owned a company.

All got money back of course. The single mom's refund was the size of her paycheck ( she assumed she'd be owing more, not getting a paycheck sized bonus).

The DINKS got O (1000) dollars back, think 3K.

The business owner couple got 25K.

Horrors. Damn rich people. But these aren't idle rich people like the Kardashians. They owned i think a construction company. They were deeply shocked, as like everyone there it had been carefully explained to them by our media that the tax cut would raise taxes, on all except the true idle rich, because Trump.

So the couple decided to build a money pit and wallow in gold bullion a la Scrooge McDuck.

NO!!!!!

Our following of *idle* rich pseudo aristocrats has programmed us to expect all rich people are wankers who blow their money on stupid s%1t.

They looked at each other and said 'we can actually do that expansion.

But they must've lied for the camera. Money Pit!!!!

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Wages

Finally Apple will be able to afford 1.7% rise in salary for its poor workers

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Anonymous Coward

It's Robin Hood

Not 'Robbing Hood'

Steals from the poor and gives to the rich.

America!

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Re: It's Robin Hood

Since you apparently haven't read/seen Robin Hood lately, here's a reminder. He steals from the government and gives back to those they took it from, the taxpayer.

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Re: It's Robin Hood

It's the Sheriff of Nottingham.

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Anonymous Coward

Good move

Ferrari sales are up!

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Anonymous Coward

I wouldn't get too giddy in the tech industry about the 15.5%, I'm pretty sure some jurisdictions are going to want the tax they didn't pay.

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Whats wrong with this..

It seems perfectly reasonable that the people who contribute such a large proportion of tax revenue should also benefit more when those taxes are reduced. Will be interesting to see how much revenue is actually reduced from these groups in any event - no need to structure your affairs as aggressively to reduce your tax liability if your tax burden is reduced...

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Re: Whats wrong with this..

"It seems perfectly reasonable that the people who contribute such a large proportion of tax revenue should also benefit more when those taxes are reduced. "

Except that when taking into account not only income tax but also sales tax, national insurance and all the other duties and taxes, the richest 10% pay less than 50% of taxes and get more than 50% of the income

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Anonymous Coward

The rich are greedy...

The middle class are greedy...

The poor are greedy...

Everyone is greedy.

You aren't any better so stop crying about the rich. Oh wait you're a liberal and don't believe in personal responsibility... carry on.

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Re: The rich are greedy...

No need to post anonymously Marie Antoinette, we know it's you.

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Go

What was only menitoned very briefly in passing, but probably needs a stronger look at, was that the savings to tax on businesses are permanent, where the tax savings for personal are time limited (until 2025). i.e. after 8 years your taxes will bounce right back up. Coincidently directly after Trump - if he won a second term - would exit the White House. So the following president has to deal with an unhappy electorate as their taxes bounce back to current levels (or probably higher).

Additionally taxes for the lower and middle calass begin to rise from 2021 (so after the next presidential election) - specifically those earning less than 30k/year will be taxed more by 2021, by 2023 those earning 40k/year will be paying more tax then currently and by 2027 everyone on any income will be paying more tax then currently. So you are getting a short tax Holiday before it all comes crashing down.

There is a pretty detailed write up here:

https://www.thebalance.com/trump-s-tax-plan-how-it-affects-you-4113968

Anyway, enjoy your short term tax cuts Americans, I will happily pay higher levels of tax then any of you to ensure I live in a country with a working medical system and a good social saftey net...

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Anonymous Coward

>Anyway, enjoy your short term tax cuts Americans, I will happily pay higher levels of tax then any of you to ensure I live in a country with a working medical system and a good social saftey net...

Tax the hell out of a person so they become dependent on government handouts. That's the liberal dream. Oh and don't forget to accuse me of racism, sexism, Islamophobia and whatnot while you're at it.

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"Again I tell you..."

... "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God"

Oh and don't forget to accuse me of racism, sexism, Islamophobia and whatnot while you're at it.

Nah, selfishness, short-sightedness and psychopathic lack of empathy would fit better.

But it's no surprise coming from someone living in the country where the Golden Calf is venerated above all...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "Again I tell you..."

>Nah, selfishness, short-sightedness and psychopathic lack of empathy would fit better.

I 100% agree! Europe in unable to protect its own citizens due to selfishness, short-shortsightedness and psychopathic lack of empathy all in the name of political correctness. At least Trump has the spine you are clearly lacking.

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Go

"Tax the hell out of a person so they become dependent on government handouts."

Do you really believe that's how it works in the rest of the world? Wow thats one crazy point of view.

As a uni Student without rich parents I got money (a handout if you like) from the government to help me attend University. After I finished uni i went to work and paid my taxes to cover what i got and to help others in the same position. And I'm fine with that.

I've been unemployed for short periods between Jobs, and received government assistance during those periods. I certainly dont resent paying taxes in order to give other people that same safety net. I also have no problem paying high taxes so that i can attend a doctor whenever I feel ill, and know that if there is something wrong, they will send me to a specialist or organise surgery and I can go ahead without needing to worry about exorbitant medical costs. Hell i got surgery on my shoulder last year and didnt have to pay a cent. I'm also happy that my taxes pay for other people to also have the same care.

I pay approximately 40% of my wages in taxes (and I am nowhere near a high earner). Sure if we had an american style system i could get more money in my pocket, but we live in a Society. And Society is, and should be, judged on how it looks after the weakest among us. If a bit more in my pocket means others are forced to the wall, then thanks but no thanks...

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Facepalm

Re: "Again I tell you..."

Europe in unable to protect its own citizens

Just for the record there:

Murder rate US - 4.88 per 100,000

Murder rate Europe - 3,0 per 100,000

(source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate).

Trump is obviously doing a great job there. :rolleyes:

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Anonymous Coward

>Do you really believe that's how it works in the rest of the world? Wow thats one crazy point of view.

Letting people decide what to do with their money is one crazy point of view? LOL.

I'm glad you enjoy paying 40% of your wages in taxes. Not everyone is good at managing their finances and seeking opportunities, but at least it is a choice. When you hand all your options to the government, your choices are what the government dictates.

Because of the lowered tax rate and Obamacare individual mandate being repealed, I now have more choices. And that feels much better than any socialist paradise you can fabricate.

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Re: "Again I tell you..."

“At least Trump has the spine you are clearly lacking.”

...says the spineful Anonymous Coward

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "Again I tell you..."

>Trump is obviously doing a great job there. :rolleyes:

Attempting to pin that on Trump... I laughed. Are you seriously that delusional? No you aren't, but you're a liberal and liberals love to blame everything on Trump. Look, while I'll never vote Democrat, I wish Republicans would apply common sense to gun control. Where I live in the middle of nowhere, taking away guns makes no sense. But if you live in Chicago or another city with a major gang problem... gun control makes a lot of sense. Gun control should be up to states and cities. But seriously blaming Trump for everything undermines your credibility.

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Re: "Again I tell you..."

> ...says the spineful Anonymous Coward

So what? Or do you want to know who I am so you could do something malicious with my personal information. I wouldn't put it past you, simply Google, "Arizona restaurant closes following backlash from its pro-Trump Facebook post." Poor liberals couldn't handle freedom of speech so they resorted to harassment.

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FAIL

Re: "Again I tell you..."

>Trump is obviously doing a great job there. :rolleyes:

Attempting to pin that on Trump...

I was only following your comment Coward - let me Quote it below again:

At least Trump has the spine you are clearly lacking.

So Trump is the reason that the US is safer than Europe according to you. Even though the data proves that's NOT the case. My rolleyes was at the irony of your comment. Sorry i should have known better than to assume an American might understand irony... nevermind.

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We should probably accuse you of idiocy and delusion while we're at it.

US policy ensures that the poor stay poor, thus keeping them dependent on the government. Social mobility in the US is terrible, if you're poor you are likely to stay poor because there is little to help you get out of that cycle.

Other countries have learned that if you invest in education and other social support mechanisms, then you can help break the poverty cycle. Then those people become successful tax paying members of society and your country will prosper.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "Again I tell you..."

>So Trump is the reason that the US is safer than Europe according to you. Even though the data proves that's NOT the case.

Never did I state the US is safer than Europe. But when it comes to doing something about immigrants from certain countries who are causing a lot of problems, you're damn right Trump has the spine you are clearly lacking.

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>Letting people decide what to do with their money is one crazy point of view?

The rich didn't create the wealth they hoard - society did. They may be entitled to a few extra bunts for cleverness and dynamism - but not 200 times the guys that do the real work.

I've known a few rich folks in my time. For the most part, they don't even work very hard for it. They may have put in a few years hard as junior execs, or in start-up mode (but they usually did so for the sheer joy of achievement, not for the money). It's almost always sheer luck - either in birth or in timing.

With very few exceptions, the rich are lazy sods, who only put in long hours at the office to get away from their families.

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"Oh and don't forget to accuse me of racism, sexism, Islamophobia and whatnot while you're at it."

Nope. just cowardice at being insulting, then not being willing to own your opinions on a website

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Unhappy

Re: "Again I tell you..."

"Murder rate US - 4.88 per 100,000"

Trump still needs to un-do DECADES of failed policies that result in inner city high unemployment rates, to deal with the murder rate and crime problems. Yeah, he got BOATLOADS of good things done in under a year, but still has a long way to go.

But as for actually ARRESTING and INCARCERATING these bozos that commit crimes [like murder], a good portion of that problem falls in the hands of STATE and local governments, not the Feds.

Recently, Cali-Fornicate-You "relaxed" the crime level (felonies becoming misdemeanors, for example) of certain "non-violent" crimes, causing prisoners to be released, among other things. The 'petty crime' increase predictably followed. We had a 3-strikes law that was WORKING. Not any more. Thanks, Jerry "2nd time around [like eating vomit]" "Moonbeam" Brown and corrupt state legislature.

Trump can't control governors or state legislatures. MOST crimes involve state law, not federal law, and are prosecuted by individual states.

And don't forget about cases where ILLEGAL ALIENS (including MS-13) are the CAUSE of the murders... like a recent high profile case in San Francisco where the perp was ACQUITTED on B.S. technicalities, "the bullet ricocheted" or some such nonsense, when HE! FIRED! THE! BULLET!! Trump can't control THAT, either.

I think the NRA _ALSO_ has some interesting statistics involving states where gun ownership and/or concealed carry permits are being INFRINGED upon... showing that restrictive anti-gun laws actually INCREASE the murder/crime rates.

So, blame where blame belongs, please?

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Re: "Again I tell you..."

"when it comes to doing something about immigrants from certain countries who are causing a lot of problems, you're damn right Trump has the spine you are clearly lacking."

Trump talks a big game, but it's all delusional talk like the wall on the Mexican border. But that's OK because to his supporters, talk is enough, what he says is gospel truth, and any facts that contradict the great leader's tweete is fake news

sad

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Permanent

Other than executions, nothing a government does is permanent. Not even the US Constitution - it has been amended 27 times. Laws are much easier to amend or revoke or rewrite. Congress could, if it so chooses, change the way debt is scored by the CBO, or simply pass a bill stating that the same tax cuts just issued will be passed again every year to keep those tax cuts "permanent". For another 10 years. Likewise Congress and President can(and will) change tax laws for corporations.

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Anonymous Coward

Obamacare individual mandate

Democrats want the poor to stay poor so they can help them with handouts. I don't want handouts, just let me keep my paycheck. Republicans are getting rid of the Obamacare individual mandate which was literally a tax on people like me who are too poor to afford health insurance. So all this talk about Democrats helping the poor is propaganda for the ignorant. President Trump has my vote next election.

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Re: Obamacare individual mandate

> Republicans are getting rid of the Obamacare individual mandate which was literally a tax on people like me who are too poor to afford health insurance.

And after the individual mandate is dropped, and those who think they will never get sick drop their insurance, there will be few left who will be able to afford the increased rates for health insurance that will result. Medicare and Medicaid will be dumped and no one but the very rich will be able afford medical care.

> President Trump has my vote next election.

You think that there will be a 'next election'? Trump is creating many opportunities for disasters and emergencies* that will 'justify' him (and his dynasty) being made President For Life.

* North Korea, Israel, rest of UN, internal civil war, etc.

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Re: Obamacare individual mandate

"I don't want handouts, just let me keep my paycheck. Republicans are getting rid of the Obamacare individual mandate which was literally a tax on people like me who are too poor to afford health insurance."

So, you're willing to die rather than take a "handout" at the ER if you're whacked by a hit-and-run while crossing the street or your appendix bursts or your case of the flu turns into pneumonia?

It's good to know that there are still individualists in the world who won't abandon their beliefs and go whining to the hospitals for free treatment just because they're having a heart attack or because that funny-looking mole turned out to be malignant and metastatic. Go, you!

No, really: Go, you.

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Devil

Re: Obamacare individual mandate

" there will be few left who will be able to afford the increased rates for health insurance that will result. "

WRONG. FUD. CLUELESS.

more like this:

Insurance companies will offer plans that people CAN afford and are willing to buy, because they do NOT have to comply with some ridiculous federal requirement. This includes "emergency only" and high-deductible catastrophic plans. Trump says he LIKES those. So do I. But you can't BUY them with OBAKA-CARE individual mandate in place. You _HAVE_ to pay 10 times as much for things you do NOT want, to "cover everyone else".

I say *NO* to Obaka-care mandates, and give it my upright middle finger. It's a "financial hardship" which allows me to NOT purchase it under THAT law [as it turns out] so I did NOT have to pay "the fine". And I did NOT buy it. And now, I won't EVER HAVE to! [I may get a high deductible catastrophic policy, now that I can, maybe like the old style 'blue cross' plans - for 1/10 the price - and for anything else, I'll just go to the neighborhood "doc in a box" or pharmacy where they can do things like flu shots without an exam first, things like that].

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Re: Obamacare individual mandate

> Insurance companies will offer plans that people CAN afford and are willing to buy, because they do NOT have to comply with some ridiculous federal requirement. This includes "emergency only" and high-deductible catastrophic plans.

The major problem with American system is that it is the health care providers (hospitals, doctors, etc) that are setting the amount of revenue that they want and this must come from the users either directly or via the insurance companies or the government through taxes. There is nothing that limits the health care demand for revenue.

Having insurance providers between the carers (as if they actually care) and the users merely adds a markup to the costs, though it does average out the risks.

Removing the 'ridiculous federal requirements' allows, as you say, for cheaper plans that do not cover particular health problems. In doing so it makes insuring for those problems completely unaffordable because the risk is spread over far fewer potential insured. This leads to even fewer people buying insurance, or people buying less effective insurance, until the whole system collapses.

> This includes "emergency only"

If the only insurance you have is 'emergency only' then _everything_ becomes an 'emergency'. The insurance companies know this and will charge appropriately (ie unaffordably).

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Re: Obamacare individual mandate

"Democrats want the poor to stay poor "

Oh, yes, it's the Republicans who want the poor to become rich (or at least not poor anymore). And the way to do that is to give more money to the rich!

"the Obamacare individual mandate which was literally a tax on people like me who are too poor to afford health insurance."

The Republicans have pulled off a proper propaganda coup on a huge swath of USA-ians. Apparently they convinced you that you are too poor to be healthy, and that it's not a good idea to tax the rich so that you and others like you can have basic healthcare (like everywhere else in the civilised world)... and you seem to support a stance that is both preventing you from having accessible healthcare, and blaming you for that.

I have to say,a big Bravo to the latter-day Goebbels who pulled that one off!!

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Re: Obamacare individual mandate

"Insurance companies will offer plans that people CAN afford and are willing to buy"

You mean, like they were doing before Obamacare?

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!

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Anonymous Coward

It shocks me that so many people don't understand that the tax system as set up by FDR was what built America. Substantial changes to the higher rates have been hurting the "middle class" that was built under this system of taxation. You know the "middle class", we're that, once, large group of people who buy the products and services that all Corps. sell. Much of NA and EU are now mature markets so no real growth, so all these changes to the tax code are to strip our little wealth redirecting it to the the wealthy political supporters. The problem for these Corps. is getting penetration into non-mature markets. The Russians and Chinese, at the least, will build and control their own. So, the Corps. are stripping what they can at all cost, including ruining the societies that have been built since WW2.

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Flame

"the tax system as set up by FDR was what built America"

WRONG. FUD. CLUELESS.

FDR's socialism actually SLOWED DOWN the recovery from the 'Great Depression'. A few things, like deposit insurance, made sense [this kept most banks from making high risk loans due to regulation involving the insurance requirement, which is what caused the banking crisis of the late 1920's]. But *MOST* of what FDR did domestically was CRAP, and should be ABANDONED, starting with Keynsian economics and ending with the so-called "progressive" taxation of incomes [it keeps people from BECOMING "the rich"].

What ended the depression was the war-time economy cause by WORLD WAR 2, and the massive spending at the end of the war as soldiers and sailors and marines came back home and bought houses and cars and other stuff they'd saved up for.

During the 1950's tax rates were INCREASED with the top marginal rate being 90% (yes, 90%) and *TONS* of loopholes for tax shelters "for the rich" to go with it [to 'stimulate' certain pet areas of the economy], so as to *SLOW* *DOWN* the U.S. economy, most likely [from a 'globalist' kind of perspective] to "allow Europe and Asia to 'catch up' to the USA after having to repair all of that war damage".

By the 1960's, JFK saw how this was STIFLING the US economy, and basically laid out supply side economics and TAX CUTS to the New York Economic Society in December of 1962. This actually made him the BETTER choice over Nixon, who was pretty much the same as Kennedy on most points that were important to people at the time. [yes, I _JUST_ praised a Democrat!]

And so I conclude: FDR's policies *STIFLED* the US economy, by putting more gummint control over it. JFK's, and Regan's, and now Trump's policies *UNLEASH* the economy, by lowering the marginal tax rates.

Our current income tax was implemented (after the approval of the relevant constitutional amendment) during the time of Woodrow Wilson, a globalist, socialist, "chicken in every pot" type of Demo-Rat politician who NEVER should have been President of the USA. Only the top 10% of income earners were affected by the 2 percent tax. Now, look where it is _NOW_ !!!

And America was MOSTLY built without an income tax. BIG GUMMINT was built WITH it.

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By the way, Bob, are you the only Republican in the known universe who does not know how to spell "Reagan", or are all Trump supporters that thick?

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Anonymous Coward

Republican tax bill ready to rescue hard-up tech giants, struggling rich

This headline was clearly written by someone who assumes that poor people are idiots. Let's tax the hell out of my boss, that would never come back to bite me in the ass, no siree! Give me a break.

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What a surprise!

So, debt rising does matter for Republicans only when they are the opposition... And who will pay for the crumbling infrastructure, making the US close from a third world country?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: What a surprise!

>So, debt rising does matter for Republicans only when they are the opposition... And who will pay for the crumbling infrastructure, making the US close from a third world country?

How about we tax the rich even more and be wonder why nobody wants to do business in the US?

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Trollface

Straight face

"The final tax reform bill is strong in the key areas that encourage innovation and entrepreneurship and create jobs in America," said Linda Moore, president and CEO of TechNet

And she said that with a straight face...?

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Anonymous Coward

The rich never did the poor a favour

Other than employ them down their mines or in their factory yards....

Eat the rich.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The rich never did the poor a favour

>Other than employ them down their mines or in their factory yards....Eat the rich.

What mines or factory yards? Socialists and unions are perfectly happy making it impossible to hire people. High unemployed is perfectly acceptable as you feel good about yourself.

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You missed a clause:

"The Tax Foundation, a tax policy non-profit"

headed by David P. Lewis, Chief Tax Executive for major drug firm Eli Lilly and Company...

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