back to article Folders return to Windows 10's Start Thing

Because it’s not complicated enough already, Windows 10’s Start menu will support folders in a forthcoming release. The Windows 10 Redstone 2 release, also dubbed the “Creators Update”, will allow apps to be nested, much as with Windows Phone 8, and the mobile edition of Windows 10. The update is expected around April, and …

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Can you imagine Windows 95 going at the speed of today's hardware?

We've a machine in a concrete lab that runs 98 and has been running the best art of a year. Every time we power cycle it's a lottery that it will start.. (we have backed it up to a CF based IDE interface hard drive...)

As it has no USB, no internet its message at the start saying that we've not updated the virus definitions for 4500+ days is quite endearing...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Unbelievable

"Who spends time faffing around with their OS?"

KDE and XFCE users.

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Re: Unbelievable

It is actually a marketing trick. They are gradually making Windows so damn bad, that people will pay to get a better one.

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Re: Clippy

Just for shitz and giggles I installed MS Bob in a VM some time ago. It was hilariously useless.

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Re: Can you imagine Windows 95 going at the speed of today's hardware?

"Nowadays my Windows machines run until patch forced reboots." which is still much less than 49 days. I had multiple *nix servers run for more than 4 years, without ever rebooting - they eventually had HW failures, so they literally never rebooted.

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Re: install Start10 which is available at small cost.

SME Server for one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SME_Server

If you cannot install that one, then you should have your geek card confiscated.

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Flame

Windows 10 can F*CK right off...

Even if they DO bring folders back in 2017...

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Stop

Re: Windows 10 can F*CK right off...

"Windows 10’s current Start menu/screen thing is a complex hybrid of the Windows 8 start screen and the Windows XP/7 menu."

Everything about windows 10 is a nasty bodge. Many places in the OS are you going between new and old ways of doing things. Play around with WiFi settings for example (which given the pathetic broken nature of WiFi in win 10, is very often).

I didn't things could get any worse than windows 8, but Windows 10 is living proof it can...

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Re: Windows 10 can F*CK right off...

"Everything about windows 10 is a nasty bodge."

Worse than that it's a nasty bodge that was thrown together in a panic when the scale of the Win8 disaster became clear to MS after they finally stopped being in denial about what a disastrous mistake it was..The nasty bodge was then released before it was properly finished. A consistent and usable UI, reliability and so much else was missing, hence the continuous stream of patches released since as they ricochet about towards something that will start to look like a finished product.

The air of denial still emanating from MS proves that they are still in semi panic mode, and it all feels a bit too much like desperation for me to have any desire to actually risk trying to use it as my desktop OS.

Personal experience has shown that working in such an atmosphere of "trying to quickly make it better under pressure" leads to buggy, incosistent software that hangs around for years as you leave the hastily cobbled together bits alone that mostly work to fight the next fire. And so the "clean Windows rewrite from the ground up" becomes a buggy, inconsistent rush job that will now hang around for years to come whlst being tinkered with to release occasional "best ever" versions, leaving users n exactly the same position that all previous incarnations of Windows did.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Windows 10 can F*CK right off...

Regarding Networks, the main thing I'm always trying to find out is if I've managed to connect (via wired lan) at 1Gbps, not 100Mbps, yet this obvious bit of info, is about 5 menus deep in Windows 10. Give the throughput speed right there in our faces, Microsoft.

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Re: Windows 10 can F*CK right off...

1984 called. DOS 3.1 wants its folders back

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Anonymous Coward

1984 called. DOS 3.1 wants its folders back

I think you mean directories.

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Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

Dumped that pile of shite for Classic Start Menu - first thing I put on the system after the Win10 install finished.

Then a decent browser and a proper command shell.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

Classic Shell is what I use on every Windows PC I own, except that I personally am stuck in the year 2000. ... For Windows menus, anyway. But Classic Shell gives you all the choices.

Also stuck at Windows 7. Have exactly one WX system, at work, for testing our USB devices against WX. It spends most of its CPU cycles running a Killing Floor 2 private server.

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Linux

Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

"Dumped that pile of shite for Classic Start Menu ...

Then a decent browser and a proper command shell."

Hmmm ...

Why don't you just get youself a nice Linux distribution and save yourself from more grief?

Happy New Year

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

I tried Classic Start Menu. It's not even polishing a turd.

Win 10 is STILL like Win2.0 and inferior to Win95, XP, Win7 (with no Aero) with it. Why bother when win7 is still supported and Linux Mint with Mate & Redmond theme is better?

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

"Why don't you just get youself a nice Linux distribution and save yourself from more grief?"

Maybe because, like millions of people/businesses stuck on Windows, the software they want/need doesn't come in a Linux version?

I was lucky. Never was much of a mainstream gamer, and always shunned Windows only software for alternatives that did the job with less hassle/expense for me.

Switched over from 2002-2006, wittling away at Windows dependent software over time as Linux offerings improved by leaps and bounds, and never looked back.

These days, most mainstream Linux distros are easier to use for newbies in every way than current Windows offerings, but the main software houses still write for Windows, so MS still has that lock-in.

No, seriously. I can jump from one distro to another, each with wildly different UI setups with few problems, but am totally lost on any Windows that's not 7, or XP and earlier.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

Yes, I do.

Once you've cleaned out the default set of bullshit tiles and put in the apps that you actually use all the time it's a lot faster and quicker to access things than the start menus of earlier versions of Windows. I rarely need to actually access the main list of applications. Everything I use regularly is pinned as a tile and organised how I like them.

Windows 95, 98, 2000, XP: Spend ages traversing the Programs tree looking for the thing you want to start. Or spend a week creating your own shortcut tree at the top, and then traverse that instead.

Windows Vista, 7: Slightly better because recently used apps appear automatically, but also slightly worse because these recent shortcuts are never quite in the same place, and in fact the more you use an application, the further away from the start button it becomes as it's moved up the list.

Windows 8:, 8.1: Fullscreen was a little overkill, in my opinion, but I can see the logical progression of trying to scale to a full size monitor. 8.1 was a lot better than 8.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

It took some wrangling but since anniversary edition you can control the start menu AND pinned taskbar with GPOs now. Quite palatable. Plus if you have enterprise you can stop all the extra shite being installed after updates too.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

"Why don't you just get youself a nice Linux distribution and save yourself from more grief?"

Well, I use linux Mint XFCE on a NUC for all my serious computing needs. The Win 10 box is a gaming rig and runs some AV stuff it is still difficult to do on linux.

As for the start menu, most of my commonly used programs are started as icons from the desktop. The cascading menu system classic start menu gives me is basically there for little used programmes which I can't remember the name of. When I was using Win 7 the whole system looked like Win 2K which is how I like it but Win 10 amongst its other faults is far less customisable. Generally I find that the less dependent I am on MS programs and utilities the more stable the system remains.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

Well done for using GPO's.

The average user would go 'GPO?' That's the Post Office Iniit?

They more than likely have a version that does not support the luxury(sic) of GPO's.

Carry on basking in the luxury of Enterprise W10 with GPO's and controlled updates.

The rest of the world who run basic editions of that shite product are meanwhile kicking the screen, swearing all sorts of nasties at Bill Gates (many think he is still at the helm) and tearing their hair out.

I've rescued three average users since the beginning of December. They now run Linux but it looks like Windows 7.

The sheer number of comments here that basically loathe W10 is testimony to the crap that Redmond has foisted on the world.

If it wasn't for the sheer cost of entry more and more would have gone over to Apple. That is another thing though.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

Does anyone even use the Win10 start mess?

Advertisers do, that's about it.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

"Dumped that pile of shite for Classic Start Menu - first thing I put on the system after the Win10 install finished.

Then a decent browser and a proper command shell."

Same - ClassicShell...decent browser...

Powershell is actually quite nice if your needs are windows-centric.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

Def - LOL useless. Windows 95, 98, Me, NT, 2000, XP - faff around organising stuff to lessen the time to find stuff

Windows Vista, 7, 8, 8.1, 10 - simply WIN+part name of program/file/resource *click* DONE.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

"Windows 95, 98, 2000, XP: Spend ages traversing the Programs tree looking for the thing you want to start. Or spend a week creating your own shortcut tree at the top, and then traverse that instead."

You make that sound like a huge an onerous task, and yet "Everything I use regularly is pinned as a tile and organised how I like them." isn't. If pinning them and re-ordering them the way you want was so simple, quick and easy, then you don't have so many frequently used apps that sorting out a start menu would be any more trouble. Now, maybe if Windows could keep the top 5 or 10 most often used apps at the top of the start menu automatically, that might actually be a useful feature. Or even just the 5 or 10 most recently used ones.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

"The sheer number of comments here that basically loathe W10 is testimony to the crap that Redmond has foisted on the world."

Normally I'd take a comment like that with a large pinch of salt because of squeaky wheel syndrome (just look at user/buyer comments on almost any review site, unhappy people complain but happy people rarely cmpliment) but having just had to spend a day sorting out a friends brand new W10 laptop, I can't help but agree. It seems the marquee mouse draw/select, shift and control method of selecting multiple files for copy/move/delete has gone. Or only works in certain view modes. Or is off by default. Or something. It might be related to whether the device has a touch or screen or Windows thinks ut has (it hasn't)

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

"Windows Vista, 7, 8, 8.1, 10 - simply WIN+part name of program/file/resource *click* DONE."

So, reverting back to DOS command line execution with command completion but partially hidden by a sort of GUI interface.. Yeah, that's great for people who don't know the name of the programme executable and have spent the last few year (or 10) clicking icons with no need to know the actual program name.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

swearing all sorts of nasties at Bill Gates (many think he is still at the helm)

Yep… I've told some people "Bill isn't in charge any more" … on numerous occasions, to no avail. They still blame the original CEO that vacated his seat more than a decade before!

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

"You make that sound like a huge an onerous task, and yet "Everything I use regularly is pinned as a tile and organised how I like them." isn't."

Well said.

Organizing the Win 95-style cascading menus is easy-- you can drag and drop things from the desktop or any file explorer window right in there, and it automatically creates the shortcuts for you. You can drag and drop any menu item to anywhere else... don't like how WordMangler 1.0 is hidden under "Doofygoof Enterprises" in the menu? Change the name of the Doofygoof "folder" (program group), or just move the shortcut out of the folder for easy access. Modifying the expanded start menu via drag and drop is very easy and quite fast-- and as I understand it, no longer possible in Windows 10 (unless you have Classic Start or something that functions as well as it does). I've never used the Win 10 start menu for any length of time; a couple of minutes with it was all I needed to realize I never wanted to see it again.

As for my frequently used programs, I have launchers for several of them in the Quick Launch bar in the taskbar (Firefox, Thunderbird, Metapad, Calculator, Everything, my music folder (not to be confused with the unused My Music folder), and Show Desktop. For other things, I prefer icons on the desktop; for still others, I prefer to place the links on the top part of the start menu. I know where each of them is even if I am having a I-wish-I-was-not-this-close-to-being-a-senior moment and I don't remember the name; I am a spatial thinker, so as long as the position remains constant, I will be fine.

Ever-changing menus like the Win 7's most used programs are not ideal for me. I'll manually place the program links at the top of the start menu; it takes about three seconds, and once it's there, I remember it by its location.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

Moreover it does work properly only if the application is registered properly (see https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee872121(VS.85).aspx), In this case also more mnemonic "friendly" names can be used (you can type "Word" instead of "winword" - they can be localized as well).

Just, still many developers don't register applications properly, especially smaller ones.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

Except linux does not run what I need.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

On my version of windows it does. It lists the top 6 most used programs.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

I actually kind of liked the original Windows 10 start menu, once I'd set up tiles and things to my liking. Then the Anniversary Update came along and totally screwed the menu up.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

I'm still on Vista, but my next upgrade will most likely be Win10. I'm not oblivious to the ongoing trends at PC/electronic shops everywhere...

And yes, I agree with installing Classic Shell. Don't forget to use a LOCAL account instead of a Microsoft account. And turn off all the telemetry/ data collection settings.

I'm surprised Microsoft hadn't yet followed Apple's example in releasing its OS.

Every year or every two years, a point release. For 2017's Creator Update... that should be Windows 10.2... as a standalone release. Next release is Windows 10.3 Similar to the OSX naming scheme.

And new users don't have to download all the previous 'service packs' after a fresh installation.

'Redstone' or 'Creator Update' sounds clunky and silly. If it's deliberately done as a veiled reference to Minecraft, I am not impressed.

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Linux

Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

>Except linux does not run what I need.

Yes, YMV or so it appears, I think Windows does not run what I need, actually, it runs a gazillion processes in the background I don't need that use up resources ... even after I have stopped all services I do not need.

One thing, regarding pinning apps to the dock on Windows is a nightmare in gnome 3.

Imagine:

I have LibreOffice installed from the repos and I would like to test a newer version from the libreoffice website ... I download, install it (to /opt) and start swriter, for example, I pin that to the Gnome 3 dock and close it ... re-launching it from the dock opens the version from the repos ... pretty sure it uses a .desktop file somewhere ... but, FFS. I need to check if there is a bug for that, sorry Gnome guyz, have not had the time to check, yet ...

Mind, this morning, my Windows 10 system was asleep and I wake it ... it asks for password ... I type password, it tells me my password is incorrect (I know for sure it was not), retry and same, I check usual suspects ... CAPS-LOCK, keyboard layout (US English Windows in France thinks I need French keyboard ... nobody does), nope, English layout ... I decide to restart the box (reboot fixes everything, right ?), the login manager vanishes and appears again, less than a second, I think "WTF", type my password, and get to the desktop ... I start working and about 3 minutes later (YES, 3 minutes!!!!- I was already programming, it might have taken longer, I don't keep my eyes on the clock, but I had already checked email, theregister headlines, opened vpn etc and was typing away in vim!!!!!) the MozartF*ck*r thinks it is perfect timing to honor the previous "restart windows" request .... sometimes, I think I need anger management training.

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Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

Wow - you're half way to Linux already...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

> I decide to restart the box (reboot fixes everything, right ?), the login manager vanishes and appears again, less than a second,

That sounds like a Trojan now has your password and took 3 minutes to gather all your info and send it off somewhere. It then activated the reboot so that the evidence of its collecting is removed.

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Windows

Re: Does anyone even use the Win 10 start mess?

It happened again this morning.

I put laptop to sleep by closing lid.

I open lid, click, and the login manager appears.

I type password, I know for sure password is correct, I retry ... same, wrong password or username.

This time, I select Sleep from menu, wait for it to sleep (almost immediate), hold power button to wake up from sleep, enter password, all fine ... Do I open a support request ?

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Stardock Start10

That is all.

Windows 7 goodness all over again and no sign of that stupid start menu.

Worth $5 no question.

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Unhappy

Re: Stardock Start10

even if I use that, or classic shell [which is FREE last I checked], it DOES! NOT! FIX! THE! 2D! FLATSO! FLUGLY! [nor does it fix the 'settings' vs 'control panel' horsecrap]

and the adware+spyware and FORCED UPDATES are _STILL_ there

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Re: Stardock Start10

To fix the ugly flatness, you'll need a different Windows theme. Back when I was still using Windows 10 on my test machine, I had my custom Windows Classic-style theme working there fairly well. It needed some tweaking to make it perfect, but it disguised Windows 10 and made it look more like what I use on 7. It wasn't a complete reprieve from the ugliness that is 10, though; my theme affected the Win32 bits of Windows 10 and returned the skeuomorphic appearance for them... but the cr'apps' stubbornly refused to play along, retaining their drab, ugly, flat grayness (which was never a match for the vast flat expanses of painful, retina-searing white pixels in the Win32 bits with the stock theme either).

If I could "just avoid using the apps" as the Windows 10 promoters say, that would be one thing, but you can't. You can change all of the defaults from the picture viewer app, Groove, Edge, back to the good old versions (which are still included with 10)... that is, until one of the forced updates comes through and decides to reset everything to the default settings (from all of the privacy settings you carefully set to allow the minimum telemetry only to your choices for default 'apps').

with some things (like the calculator, solitaire, etc.), MS has completely removed the native Win32 programs and replaced them with hideous, inferior app versions (some of which pester you with ads now), and to fix that, you'd have to copy over the old versions from another version of Windows, as far as I know. I don't know if these get reset with updates, but it would not surprise me.

Then there's the third category of 'app' appearing things, like Settings. They're now part of the OS, and there are no Win32 versions. You're just stuck having them stubbornly disregarding all of the theming you may have applied, not to mention the UI conventions (like menu bars, no hamburger menus, well-utilized space that doesn't have comically oversized controls and vast amounts of space that could be doing something useful but is instead just sitting there) that have been in place for decades because they work for mouse and keyboard PCs.

It was an improvement, incomplete as it was, and it made Win 10 semi-tolerable for shorter periods of time when I was testing it...

.. until Threshold 2 broke something, and my theme no longer worked at all.

That proved to be a metaphor for the whole thing. Just when you think you've gotten Microsoft's stupidity beaten back, MS moves to block you from making their product more tolerable to yourself.

That was when I formatted my test PC's SSD and repurposed it as a Linux boot device in my main PC. I had been continuing to monitor 10 with the expectation (or at least the hope) that it would eventually evolve into a decent product, but TH2 removed any such illusions.

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Windows Key + Keyboard

Since Windows 7 I have become so used to hitting the Windows Key + plus typing the name of the program that I want that I almost no longer use the Start Menu as such..

Even if they do bring folders back or whatever marketing catchphrase they will name it, I presume that it won't really change anything that will truly make a difference, at least not for me..

I like W10 a lot, even though it absoultely refuses to install the Annivesary Update in my "Microsoft" Surface Pro .....gggggrrrrrrrrr And from what I have gleaned from the various forums I am certainly not the only one..... Whether I want to or not I am stuck with 1511-10586.713

I wish they would sort out the update nightmare before adding folders........

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Pint

Re: Windows Key + Keyboard

"Since Windows 7 I have become so used to hitting the Windows Key + plus typing the name of the program that I want that I almost no longer use the Start Menu as such.."

@Khaptain: depending on the programs one needs to use, I find that this works on [ linux | gnome | xfce4 | dwm* ] just fine at home, as well as on Windows 7 and Windows 10 for Education at work.

Once in the software I use most (Firefox, Libreoffice, GIMP, R, texlive | miktex, Audacity) I find I lose track of which system I'm using quite often.

*dwm: you need to edit the config.h and recompile.

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refuses to install the Annivesary Update

Every PC I have that was upgraded to 10 using the nagware has this problem. Only solution appears to be a new install.

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Re: Windows Key + Keyboard

Since Windows 7 I have become so used to hitting the Windows Key + plus typing the name of the program that I want that I almost no longer use the Start Menu as such.."

Great for the commonly used stuff. But what's the name of that Epson scanner programme? Oh, it broke, I just bought a Canon instead. Now I just got used to the Espon one, but what's the Canon one called? Or any of the other dozens and dozens of programmes not used everyday. Like I said above, it's a reversion to a DOS command line with a semblance of GUI overlaid. The whole raison d'etre of GUI is so the user can "intuitively" point'n'click and not have to remember esoteric command names which may change from version to version (not going near the icons changing their "look" in every new version!!)

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Re: Windows Key + Keyboard

This thread is sort of blending into this one;

Twas the week before Xmas ... not a creature was stirring – except Microsoft admitting its Windows 10 upgrade pop-up went 'too far'

And the same comment there applies here, as John Brown (no body) points out, frequently used programmes are easy to find. Occasionally used ones less so. And, as I pointed out in that thread, too many software publishers think that their own unhelpful names are more important than the programme's actual name ( e.g. Hornhill Stylepix) let alone providing a descriptive name. So finding that useful programme that you last used six months ago isn't going to be quite that easy.

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Anonymous Coward

You tease !

I thought MS had finally fixed the Start Menu until I read the article and realised this was only for "apps".

Guess I'm stuck using toolbars to get a working menu system.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: You tease !

Didn't you read the support docs? Having a usable interface costs extra and is only available to subscribers. The only thing you should have running is a single browser window to O364.co.uk

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Re: You tease !

Just for apps?

What are there, like ten of them?

I should not think they'd be in need of much organization, being so useless and all.

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