back to article Oracle finally targets Java non-payers – six years after plucking Sun

Oracle is massively ramping up audits of Java customers it claims are in breach of its licences – six years after it bought Sun Microsystems. A growing number of Oracle customers and partners have been approached by Larry Ellison’s firm, which claims they are out of compliance on Java. Oracle bought Java with Sun Microsystems …

Ransomware

Just under the article (in the Whitepapers section) the first link is "Understanding the depth of the global ransomware problem". How appropriate.

Edit: Actually, I now see completely different list of whitepapers. Still, in light of the article, Java SE seems not much different from ransomware.

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Facepalm

Anything that reduces use of Java, no matter how little

If we're lucky, a significant number of Java users will abandon the platform because of all this. Anything that removes Java from the world is a good thing. Lawsuits. Demons. Flying monkeys. Anything at all.

Here in our little IT shop, we decided to simply remove Java from our machines, eliminating one of the world's most popular hack targets. Sorry, can't do it! Two administration sites we use require it, and the employee payroll portal. So we're stuck with this abomination. Grrr!

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Re: Anything that reduces use of Java, no matter how little

Don't be melodramatic. Java is still (by far) the most widely used programming language in the world, with millions of commercial (especially enterprise) applications written in it. It's no more of a security risk than any other programming language.

What you're talking about is the Java web plugin, and yes, it makes sense to disable that and not run random Java applets on web sites you don't know. But that's just applets, nothing to do with Java as a whole.

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Re: Anything that reduces use of Java, no matter how little

also, much development and deployment now happens on openjdk, not the oracle jdk.

This does not have the problem described here.

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Citation Needed

... Java is still (by far) the most widely used programming language in the world, with millions of commercial (especially enterprise) applications written in it.

Are you sure about that?

Depending on what you're actually comparing -- and I know Java is big -- I'd have thought it had a way to go to catch C in terms of applications written in it.

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Alien

Re: Anything that reduces use of Java, no matter how little

Here in our little IT shop, we decided to simply remove Java from our machines, eliminating one of the world's most popular hack targets.

"In order to be able to speak of not wanting to be a hack target, it is necessary to first know whereof you speak."

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Citation Needed

Learn about UICCs (still erroneously called SIM cards) and JVM.

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Re: Anything that reduces use of Java, no matter how little

And replace it with what? Junk languages like C/C++, JavaScript and PHP?

Lisp died. The only real alternative to Java for a vaugely modern memory manged, JIT compiled system is .Net/Mono, which has its own problems.

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Re: Anything that reduces use of Java, no matter how little

Junk languages like C/C++ as opposed to the even more junk java.

I got sick of the ugly jellywobbly applications that use Java. and we have banished it and everything associated with it and Oracle. Tomcat, MySQL, we have one legacy Oracle RAC left and its replacement is scheduled.

Now to erase it out of education and the world will look a lot brighter.

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Facepalm

Re: Anything that reduces use of Java, no matter how little

Sophomoric "your language a shit" fighting in my comment section?

It's more likely than you think!

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Re: Anything that reduces use of Java, no matter how little

LISP hasn't died. Still in use in a number of places.

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jbx

Re: Citation Needed

Seriously? I think you still live in 1999!

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jbx

Re: Anything that reduces use of Java, no matter how little

You still haven't proposed anything that comes close to the power and strength of the Java eco system. Of course it is not perfect, it was designed 20 years ago and some of the design philosophy of that time might not fit any more. But surely it is much better than C++ and it's fake oop (overriding that doesn't do polymorphism properly if the base class doesn't declare a method virtual... Good luck with extending a class from another library!) Not to mention the huge amount of libraries and frameworks like spring, akka, hazelcast, hibernate...

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Re: Anything that reduces use of Java, no matter how little

Ha! Since moving jobs 18 months and having to re-train in the .NET world I have to agree that I am not missing C++ at all. There little or nothing in that godforsaken language that you cannot do a lot simpler and cleaner in C# / WPF / XAML...

That's not all I don't miss. The attitudes and mentalities of some of the C/C++ brigade who think it's clever to write highly obfuscated unreadable code.

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Re: Anything that reduces use of Java, no matter how little

Please be cool ... and do not call C C++ "Junk-Language" - or i have to think you are a 12 year old script-kiddy ;)

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J2C on github

is about to getting to a hammering!

Or should I use the eclipse plugin?

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Re: J2C on github

you mean some shit half assed C++ translator , that has not been updated for 5 years....

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Anonymous Coward

Re: J2C on github

Haskell! Translate to Haskell!!!

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WTF?

Well, speaking as one of the legion of people who have a product running on java

I am alarmed.

I checked the most recent download of the JDK (1.8.0.111). As far as I can see, the only "chargeable" bit that has been installed is the Java Management Console. I don't see any sign of "Java SE Advanced Desktop, Advanced and Suite". Unless it's hidden so that only the compliance checker can find it...

So, perhaps that will push developers onto Linux, as then they use can use OpenJDK!

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Re: Well, speaking as one of the legion of people who have a product running on java

OpenJDK is available for Windows (just installed it and it everything works fine)

https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2016/06/27/openjdk-now-available-for-windows/

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Anonymous Coward

IBM Java

There's always the IBM implementation of Java....

Oh, wait; you'd be better off selling your soul to Oracle.

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Paris Hilton

Re: IBM Java

That would make IBM a superdevil, possibly something peddling The Yellow Sign. You have to explain this!

IBM has added quite a bit to the stack of operational open software (including by financing lawyers). Not something one would expect from Larry's Spawn.

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When I was @ HPe, there was a very aggressive effort to eliminate all Sun/Oracle Java products and move to OpenJDK; I assumed it was because of the contentious relationship between HP and Mark Hurd.

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Anonymous Coward

So something useful came out of Mark's todger after all?

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Good time to try this, given that as soon as Flash is finally taken out into the desert, shot in the back of the head and buried in an unmarked grave, Java will then become number one on the most hacked list.

Either that, or Larry has run out of money for his hollowed out volcano lair.

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Excellent. Good on Oracle.

It's about time someone stuck the knife into Java, and while limited this should be just about enough to do it.

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Anonymous Coward

Article perfectly timed for late on a Friday afternoon

Forward a copy of this to head of S/W Dev, see look of panic on his face and then go home for the weekend leaving him to stew.

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Even slurp hasn't

Not even Microsoft have tried to shake people down for C#.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Even slurp hasn't

... yet

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Re: Even slurp hasn't

Leisure Suit Larry has always been too sleazy for even Slurp as hard to believe that is and I despise Slurp. Slurp seems to have a couple of groups that grasp being on good terms with developers and end users is a good idea even if most of the company is run by idiots.

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Everyone wants to kill Java. But what do you use for a rich internet client then?

At one time we thought Silverlight might be a good candidate. Dead now.

At one time we thought Flex could be a candidate. Dead now.

So what then to replace Java Web Start apps that download, install, self-update, and run like native installed apps?

UWP - Too phone centric! Cannot support multiple monitors, etc. Not to mention - windows 10 only...

HTML5 - You're smoking something. HTML is not a desktop application platform to replace installed apps. Not even close.

So we are stuck with it. Thankfully, JWS is not "Advanced" deployment (at least yet). Waiting for Larry to make it so... Yeah.

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"But what do you use for a rich internet client then?"

If by "rich internet client" you mean a write-once-run-anywhere platform then the short answer is you don't. Please stop looking. The world has seen repeated attempts over the last two or three decades to create a single platform and every time we end up with something that gives a barely usable experience on at most one of its supposed targets.

Separate your UI from your back-end. If you can do that properly, the former will be a trivial thin layer and the latter will be portable. Trivial thin layers can be optimised for each platform. Portable code can be recompiled. If you have trouble with either of these operations, find a new career.

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Anonymous Coward

HAHA! You got SERVED, Bryan!

Nice.

+++ATH0

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Ken,

Oh I agree, generic run anywhere platforms are crap. This is only run on windows. Although it could run on other platforms with work, that was not the requirement so we took advantage of some native windows features.

The UI is very separate from the back-end. It does a lot of the data manipulation/creation with database code. Returned spatial features are also cached on the middle tier to enhance scale-ability. But the brute force editing and rendering of map data for both vector and raster is done on each client. To do that on the middle tier frankly would not work due to bandwidth restrictions and latency. I'm talking max 3G speed network connections (the pathetic DoD NIPRNET), so long-term caching of data on the client is paramount. Not to mention local printing to large format printers (aka plotters), multiple P2P connections from a client to multiple data sources (e.g. WFS, WMS, network shared shapefiles), etc. Just the P2P bit rules our using a browser due to the cross-scrip vulnerability crap, or a mix of HTTP / HTTPS data sources.

But back to "app" platforms for desktop / tablet OS's - the choice now is essentially compiled, locally installed and updated .net apps or whatever - or - Java, with JWS as a sort of hybrid between that locked-down environment and thin HTML apps.If there was a better, well supported hybrid environment, we'd be on it.

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That's a pretty limited use case. There isn't really much case for a rich browser-based internet client that can't be filled by standardized HTML and Javascript. The reason everyone is moving away from 3rd party browser plugins is primarily compatibility, with a side of security and reliability. Frankly, for anything I'm working on Java is never an option because everything has to be compatible with phones and tablets.

The only places you can still use Java on web applications is for internal company applications at a company that mandates the client configuration and with bring your own device very popular these days those places are a dying breed. And as for desktop applications those Applet in a window apps were always awful, regardless of if they were Java, Flash or Sliverlight.

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@Ken Hagan

Essentially use MVC on all code with each part taking care of only one important segment. Done right one might only need one part to change much from OS to OS with the rest being almost totally platform independent.

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UK law

I thought under UK law if someone gives you something for free they couldn't later demand money for it.

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WTF?

Re: UK law

Ah, but this is Californication Law

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Re: UK law

Point is the jurisdiction will matter. Outside of the US, US court civil judgements would not prevail. Leisure Suit's minions would need to sue in the appropriate country which means that country's laws could play havoc with the shakedown. In the US, depending on the precise circumstances one might force the suit into federal court not state (CA) court.

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Re: UK law

I thought that was also EU anti-dumping law? As I recall it started when some milk company had the idea of leaving yoghurt pots on people's doorsteps then trying to charge them for it, leading to rapid protests and a quick law change/clarification.

Not that I would suggest in any way that Larry Ellison's fine company would behave like some half-assed vendor of rancid cow secretions.

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Re: UK law

Yeah, its basically bait and switch. Wouldn't last long in a court in the UK, or the EU for that matter.

Though, that doesn't mean smaller companies won't pay up - defending against a behemoth like Oracle is *expensive*.

I'll be using this as a reason to remove Java from as many of our PCs as possible at work. Just not worth the risk.

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True Evil that makes even Microsoft look good

Oracle's whole business of forcing you to install this whole package of Garbage when you just wanted a simple runtime, then leaving it lurking there and if you ever accidentally use it... you owe us $$$$$$ is a prime example of why sometimes you NEED strong government regulation on contracts, otherwise evil like this gets foisted on people. (Of course when $$$$$ writes the laws, well you are totally out of luck).

The sooner Java dies the better, it can go join Flash in the abyss.

Oracle's primary business seems to be writing software & licensing designed to make you accidentally trip hidden landmines so then they can demand $$$$$ I guess their products are such junk they figure nobody would pay them if they honestly and clearly laid things out.

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Re: True Evil that makes even Microsoft look good

"The sooner Java dies the better,"

It can die tomorrow, for you, if you want. Take a look around your business and identify all the Java apps that you still use. Then, for each one, inform your company's legal department that from next year they will *need* something *in writing* from each of the relevant vendors *indemnifying* you against any legal action by Oracle on licensing. Separately, make estimates of the cost of non-compliance and tell the accounts department that this money needs to be set aside "just in case" and should therefore be factored into the operating costs of continuing to use these applications.

Your company's legal and accounting brains should be able to sort out the rest.

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Re: True Evil that makes even Microsoft look good

I was a solaris admin. Moved to oracle admin. Then back to dev...used java...now we have set a shop that uses both java and python...I hate larry for destroying my source of income repeatedly...

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My comment from the Sun acquisition

Uncle Larry is not in the "giving stuff away" business.

You should've started migrating then, not now.

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Anonymous Coward

One Rich *rse Called.....

I wish Sun had done this.. then perhaps we would still be in existence.

Resistance is futile.. unfortunately.

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so what exactly are the files we're supposed to remove from JRE installs?

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This should do it:

find / -name "*java*" -o -name "*jre*" -o -name "*jdk*" -exec rm {} \;

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Anonymous Coward

The are named "stardust" ..

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