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back to article Alleged hacker Lauri Love loses extradition case. Judge: Suicide safeguards in place

It was ruled today that Lauri Love, the alleged hacktivist from Stradishall, Suffolk, should be extradited to the United States to face charges of crimes carried out as part of online protests following the suicide of Aaron Swartz. Handing down her judgment at Westminster Magistrates’ Court this afternoon, District Judge Nina …

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    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: This has to stop!

      "If convicted here he would most likely get 6 years.

      If convicted in the USA he would get 60 years."

      That's the differences in the two justice systems. Here in the UK we usually only charge with the higher or worst of the charges while in the USA they tend to throw the whole book at the accused in attempts to make many charges as possible stick. There's also the various interstate "wire fraud" charges that probably don't even exist here. And finally, here in the UK, even if multiple charges are brought, prosecuted and convicted on, the multiple sentences are normally served concurrently rather than consecutively as seems to be the norm in the USA. Sometimes it's a moral decision as to which might be the better route. In this case I'd probably lean a little more towards the UK justice system as being the better option, but only by a hair.

      1 0 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This has to stop!

      If convicted here he would most likely get 6 years.

      If convicted in the USA he would get 60 years.

      It cannot make sense to destroy someone's life for a foolish endeavour where nobody got hurt.

      Ah, but the idea of such punishment is to act as a deterrent. There is a simple principle at work here: if you don't want to do the time, don't engage in activities that are illegal as it may eventually catch up with you. The "little harm" bit may influence things a bit, but I reckon that everyone who has been messing around with servers in the United Cauldrons States of America will now at least think a moment before they do it, which is the whole point of this circus and associated heavy fines in the first place.

      Is it excessive? Given that law enforcement can even kill people over there without any punishment I'd say yes, but I don't think anyone can claim that they don't know the risk when they try to break into systems abroad. If you want to prove what a l33t hacker you are, first seek permission before you try or the site owner won't be able to distinguish you from the common variety criminal who is busy doing the same.

      It's not rocket science.

      1 0 Reply
  2. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    the United States ruled today

    "It was ruled today that Lauri Love, the alleged hacktivist from Stradishall, Suffolk, should be extradited to the United States"

    It's not as we were a real country anyway, at least since the Second World War. The Americans came to liberate us, the thing is they never left.

    9 13 Reply
    1. Jonathan Richards 1
      Reply Icon

      Re: the United States ruled today

      > The Americans came to liberate us, the thing is they never left.

      If by "us" you mean England (location of the courts which issued this ruling), then you want to revisit your 20th Century History notes. England, or the rest of the United Kingdom, was not in need of liberation [1], but was in need of hundreds of thousands of troops, and hundreds of thousands of tons of military equipment, in order to open a Western Front and relieve the pressure of the Third Reich on the USSR in the East.

      [1] The Channel Islands were occupied, but they're not constitutionally part of the United Kingdom.

      6 0 Reply
  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    admittedly my knowledge of the American penal system comes from...

    films and TV shows but i think it would be wise for Mr Love to pop into his local Ann Summers and buy an 'Inflatable Butt Plug' and get cracking on increasing the 'GIRTH' of his Dragons Nostril, in preparation for the onslaught it is going to receive when he becomes Playmate of the Month at Rikers! If he can also dislocate his jaw at will, like a python, then this will aid him in the bleak days ahead.

    Seriously though i hope his legal team can find some miracle to keep him out of the clutches of the yanks.

    And remember Lauri, breathe through your nose. That way you won't blackout....or so i've been told.

    2 14 Reply
    1. Hollerithevo
      Reply Icon

      Re: admittedly my knowledge of the American penal system comes from...

      Sadly you are not wrong. But all joking aside, what we would be condemning this poor soul to is serial rape. And since he would probably be in isolation to keep him 'safe', he would be at the mercy of the guards, who also do the raping. Plus bullying and other abuse.

      8 3 Reply
    2. Boo Radley
      Reply Icon

      Re: admittedly my knowledge of the American penal system comes from...

      You people have a very distorted view of the US Federal Prison System. He would be held for trial in federal facilities, which are far nicer and safer than what you see on tv.

      Then, after the inevitable sentencing, he'll go to either Butner, NC or Rochester, MN, where they have psychiatric facilities. Trust me on this, he's not gonna get any anal action at either of these two places.

      Sorry to bust your collective bubble.

      2 3 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: admittedly my knowledge of the American penal system comes from...

        Trust me on this, he's not gonna get any anal action at either of these two places.

        .. at least, that's what they report to Congress, right? As truthful as the CIA, right?

        Joking aside, I no longer know what to believe over there other than that it appears worth staying well away from it all.

        2 1 Reply
    3. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: admittedly my knowledge of the American penal system comes from...

      it would be wise for Mr Love to pop into his local Ann Summers and buy an 'Inflatable Butt Plug'

      You seem to be remarkably up to date on what Ann Summers shops have in stock?

      1 0 Reply
  4. Baldy50

    What he did was illegal!

    The thing is how do you feel about what he did and with regards to what poor Aaron did?

    He obviously did what he did because he was disgusted at what the US legal system had done to Aaron and now he is about to get he same in return.

    So you give all your work for free to the college or uni or whatever and they then use some company like JSTOR who charges a shit load of money for other students etc to access it and in the process have the sole rights for something they didn't commission or pay for and should be in the public domain in the first place, look at the profits these companies make for doing basically fookall.

    The US gov is always going to side with the big corporations, end of story!

    5 3 Reply
    1. Rob D.
      Reply Icon

      Re: What he did was illegal!

      What he is alleged to have done was illegal.

      Both the US and UK have what's called a 'trial' where 'evidence' is examined to determine 'guilt'. Unless proven guilty, even if they look as guilty as sin, people are presumed to be 'innocent'.

      Sometimes that works well and sometimes it doesn't but there is supposed to be a trial before guilt is assigned.

      3 0 Reply
  5. Jemma

    Suicide prevention is in place..

    After all wouldn't want an amateur to botch things.. Now would we..?

    To misquote Red October

    "You saw him push the knife into his neck, and I was never here... "

    Although this might possibly be an Owlswick Jenkins situation but that would probably be giving the US government to much credit..

    0 2 Reply
  6. Herby

    Don't do the crime...

    ...If you can't do the time.

    Enough said.

    12 9 Reply
  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    People with Aspergers are NOT criminals - do not fear them

    I am so tired of sites like this, and the BBC adding "who has Aspergers" to every article whether it's relevant or not, like it's relevant. Love, McKinnon or anyone etc. aren't any less culpable than anyone else.

    Aspergers does not make people criminals; they are as honest and moral (or not) as anyone else.

    Sure, they might be more prone to liking these type of activities, and he's not going to find getting on with other prisoners easy (but as an Aspie, the routine might suit him) but Love isn't stupid or mentally impaired - if he hacked, Aspergers wasn't his excuse. And depressed...sure, so would I be facing extradition and indefinite detention - tail wagging the dog there. All sorts of people won't like prisons... what about claustrophobics? That Gary McKinnon pulled the Asperger's card seems not to have set any precident. I've no idea what the difference here was.

    The real story here isn't the extradition or that his aspergers should be some sort of ignorant get out of jail card but that he won't get justice. He will be threatened being held for 300 years while they take their time getting to trial, or plead guilty now (regardless of guilt) for a lesser sentence. If you're threatening 99 years, a plea deal is the only way out for anyone. What sorts of backward medeieval state puts someone in jail for 99 years? (I know that's a theoretical maximum, not what he'd actually get if convicted, but it would still be long, and hard). And the US criticise middle-east justice ?

    But wait, I'm just off to get a diagnosis. It might be useful if I ever get in trouble.

    6 4 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: People with Aspergers are NOT criminals - do not fear them

      Sure, they might be more prone to liking these type of activities

      With all due respect, that is bullshit of the highest order. Aspies know damn well what is right and what is wrong. As an Aspie you may not be tuned 100% into society rules but all Aspies I know fix that by creating their own rules, and tend to be a lot less flexible in breaking those (which creates some of the rigidity conflicts with non-Aspies, but that's easy to address).

      There is no evidence whatsoever that suggests people diagnosed with Aspergers are more prone to breaking the law than others - I suggest you may suffer from confirmation bias, brought on by excessive press focusing on the Aspergers factor (usually as an attempt to use it as a Get Out Of Jail card, which is IMHO also not appropriate and frankly mildly insulting to other Aspies).

      Having Aspergers does NOT make you more prone to turn into a law breaking computer hacker.

      2 0 Reply
  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Irony that this relates to Schwarz

    It's ironic that the alleged crimes were committed as protest against the suicide of Aaron Schwartz, as he apparently killed himself because of the pressure of the weight of the entire US justice system bearing down on him. Whatever he did, the horror of what he faced in justice was the issue. He was a hacker, he did bad stuff, I didn't agree with him but he didn't deserve "US justice" - exactly the same as with Lauri Love.

    9 3 Reply
  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Occurred in the USA"

    On that technical point, I think actually yes, it did. If you throw a grenade into a house, would you argue that the crime took place in the house or outside? Remote control or place of instigation isn't where the crime (allegedly) took place.

    3 4 Reply
  10. John70

    Will this mean that the US will go for Gary McKinnon again if Lauri Love is extradited?

    1 0 Reply
  11. Gray
    Holmes

    Suicide highly unlikely ...

    Once stripped naked and tossed into solitary confinement, monitored hourly by guards who come to flush his 6' x 8' concrete cell with buckets of cold water, exposed to 24-hour fluorescent lighting, and threatened with removal of finger and toenails or teeth that might be used to rip open one's wrists or throat or gouge one's arm or leg arteries... I'd say your young Mister Love will be perfectly accommodated in our high-security prison setting. With further luck, it may even be one of our privately-contracted, privately-administered, for-profit incarceration facilities.

    As the popular American folk-rhyme goes: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime!"

    Or, as we proudly point to the base of that New York harbor statue... "Send us your poor... your wretched... your huddled masses." Or send Mister Love. That's a start.

    Now, concerning a certain Australian currently evading American vengeance justice in your capitol city...

    0 4 Reply
    1. Danny 2
      Reply Icon

      Re: Suicide highly unlikely ...

      Capital city.

      3 0 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Suicide highly unlikely ...

      Or, as we proudly point to the base of that New York harbor statue... "Send us your poor... your wretched... your huddled masses."

      You must have been short of space on that statue, because events suggest the full statement apparently ends with ".. for target practice."

      2 1 Reply
  12. Omar Smith
    Big Brother

    Not a real country anyway ..

    "District Judge Nina Tempia ruled that Love, who has Asperger’s Syndrome, should be handed over to the US authorities"

    And of course the extradition treaty is totally asymmetrical as in under the same criteria, an American couldn't be extradited to the UK. It's not as if we were a real country anyway.

    3 1 Reply
  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sauce for the goose?

    ... it was ultimately "in the interests of justice for the case to be tried in the United States" as "the conduct occurred in the United States, all the victims are in the United States, their interests are best served with the case being heard in the United States"...

    I am curious as whether Judge Tempia would have found that argument persuasive at a hypothetical extradition hearing of a drone operator wanted in Pakistan on multiple charges of murder?

    4 1 Reply
  14. Stu J

    This should be simple...

    Did he ever set foot in the USA during, or since he committed the crime?

    If no, then the USA have no jurisdiction over this case, end of, and any extradition should be automatically denied on that basis.

    He should be tried in the UK though, and Aspergers isn't a defence, although it may be a mitigating factor when it comes to sentencing.

    3 1 Reply
    1. Danny 2
      Reply Icon

      Re: This should be simple...

      A British citzen committing a crime on British soil should be charged in the UK under English or Scottish law and if found guilty imprisoned here close to their family, in this case under the Computer Misuse Act 1990 with a maximum 10 year sentence. Anything less is a betrayal of soveriegnty.

      If the yanks don't like that then they shouldn't keep their sensitive military systems easily available online from the UK.

      I've met Love near Glasgow, he is not that technical. There must be dozens of less naive hackers still in those systems undetected.

      5 1 Reply
  15. adam payne

    The extradition should be stopped, throwing this man to the Americans isn't justice.

    He should be tried by a jury of his peers in this country.

    2 1 Reply
  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As far as I'm aware the treaty between UK and US is 'bilateral'.

    When was the last time anyone heard of a (suspected) criminal being extradited from the US back here?

    I can't remember any such case at all - but then I don't follow the news as assiduously as others here appear to...

    2 1 Reply
    1. Commswonk
      Reply Icon

      As far as I'm aware the treaty between UK and US is 'bilateral'.

      Ah but I don't think that is true. ISTR that the "treaty" such as it is was ratified by the UK Parliament but was not ratified by the US Congress. Quite how someone managed to agree to a treaty that could be so one - sided (because of the failure of one of the parties to ratify it) escapes me; it ought to have been built into the treaty that it only became effective once both (or all, as the case may be) parties had ratified it.

      If my recollection is true then the UK parliament should make it clear to the US that we are going to cancel the treaty unless they (the US) ratifies it PDQ. Anything else is simply spineless.

      Hang on; I can see a problem here...

      2 1 Reply
      1. James Turner
        Reply Icon

        Your recollection is about a decade out of date - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK–US_extradition_treaty_of_2003

        1 0 Reply
  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Human rights?

    Since when has it been OK to put a person in a situation where they are likely to commit suicide?

    I have Aspergers and, having been on suicide watch more than once, do not think that 24hr suicide watch is in any way compatible with anyone's human rights...

    2 1 Reply
    1. drtune
      Reply Icon

      Re: Human rights?

      Since when has breaking the law & if you're caught claiming you might kill yourself been a mitigating factor? Ok I mug a granny or rob a post office and suddenly get all depressed when I'm nabbed? FFS.

      2 5 Reply
  18. drtune

    Cry me a river

    Ok so;

    a) A guy ('allegedly') hacks into a bunch of US govt computers; crappy ones, webservers etc. Big woop. He (allegedly) attempts to cover his tracks with proxies/tor/etc and does so ineptly. He gets tracked down and busted. Ok he might be innocent - but it's really not clear why the cops would be so interested in kicking his door down unless they had something to go on (which, of course, will all have to come out in court).

    b) He's encrypted his HD's and refuses to provide the key. His support website implies this is because he's innocent but somehow fighting for everyone's right to {..something?} - during which time he's sitting in a jail cell. He's in jail, and supposedly he has nothing to hide, and yet he won't provide the decryption key - which in itself is illegal in the UK (not something I agree with but that's not the point) - so he's guaranteeing himself trouble with the law. Damn, he must have some fucking astonishingly high moral principles if there's nothing incriminating on those drives.

    c) He's got eczema. He's depressed. His hair won't stay quite the way he likes it. He stubbed his toe. He 'might kill himself'. He's got Asperger's. ...Whatever the fuck. Anyway, this apparently is a reason to let him off the hook.

    He's yet another idiot who (allegedly) did something he knew was illegal, thought he wouldn't get caught, got caught, and is now whining any excuse he can think of. Not unlike Ross Ulbricht - who was astonished and outraged to find himself 'made an example of' (yes honey, that's the whole idea, you're being used as a deterrent to others).

    I suggest _not_ fucking with a government and expecting to be let off if you get caught. By all means fuck with them if you think that's going to achieve {personal crusade X} but if you get nabbed don't be surprised if they throw the book at you. Stupid kids.

    1 7 Reply
    1. Commswonk
      Reply Icon

      Re: Cry me a river

      Mmm... if your comment had been written purely analytically rather than with more than a slight edge of "rant" it might have attracted a upvote rather than a downvote.

      In this case I suspect that the Magistrate could not reasonably have rejected the application for extradition. With the precedent of Gary McKinnon the intention may be that this will land on the Home Secretary's desk so that the "blame" is at governmental level, which is probably where it actually belongs.

      At the same time we really cannot have a situation whereby anyone accused of practically anything can suddenly plead "Asperger's Syndrome" as a sort of all - purpose get out of jail card, not least because if this approach was to be allowed there is no knowing where it would end. Having worked alongside someone with Aspergers in a previous life, my own (very) limited observation would be that those with it lack that little voice that whispers in the ear "what you are about to do is really not a good idea", but on a broader level I have no idea if that is widespread or not.

      IIRC Aspergers is not classified as a mental illness, and I cannot accept any argument that gives those with it the opportunity to sidestep responsibility for their actions. If Love had been caught drinking and driving would "Aspergers" have been a permissible defence? Arson / theft / GBH / etc ditto?

      One logical endpoint of trying "Aspergers" as a defence might be that those with it become subject to a blanket ban on owning or using computers, driving, and so on. Not the happiest of outcomes for the rest of the affected community...

      1 0 Reply
  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm guessing if we tried to extradite some of the bankers who caused the 2008 crash the good 'ol US of A might not be so happy to oblige ! Its a one sided extradition treaty that should be ripped up. Blair stitched up this deal which tells you all you need to know. Neoliberals strike once again.

    1 1 Reply
  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Were sentencing to occur in Trumpistan

    The poor sod would probably not survive.

    2 1 Reply
  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Asperger’s Syndrome

    I've got Asperger’s Syndrome, it's not a bloody get-out-of-jail-free-card.

    2 0 Reply
  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    FYI - two petitions you can sign ...

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/725/716/431/stop-the-extradition-of-lauri-love/

    https://www.gopetition.com/petitions/do-not-extradite-laurie-love-to-the-usa.html

    downvotes expected ... I can handle it ... :)

    0 0 Reply
    1. Kurt Meyer
      Reply Icon

      Re: FYI - two petitions you can sign ...

      @ AC

      "downvotes expected ... I can handle it ..."

      But evidently, your regular handle can not.

      1 0 Reply
  23. ShadowDragon8685

    Disclaimer: Yankee here.

    This is a load of bollocks. Exposing anyone to the U.S. "Justice" system in its present state is a fucking travesty, especially with the retarded way they're trying to throw three states' and then the Federal system at him.

    But, the demand for justice be appeased. So, I have a proposal for a compromise:

    Fly him over here, but with diplomatic status, meaning the feds can't just grab him and throw him in a hole. (Well, they could, nobody would be willing to use violence to prevent it, but at penalty of having their own diplomats expelled from the UK, I think they'd play nice.) His own security detail escorts him to the court(s) and makes him stand trial(s).

    The various States and the Feds can throw the book at him all they want. He enjoys a 24/7 full-bore multimedia experience of the U.S. Courts, most likely getting his ass handed to him. Judgement is passed, sentences are held in abayance.

    Once he's been tried on all charges, and if found guilty, he's flown back to the UK to serve all the time the U.S. courts sentenced him to - CONCURRENTLY, in a justice system which is less Abu Gahrib and more something approximating civilized. And if any USAsshole complains, it's guaranteed to be a right-winger asshole, so point out that he's been sentenced by the U.S. Courts but ISN'T being incarcerated on the U.S. taxpayer's dime so SHADDUP.

    And yes, I say "approximating" civilized, because from the point of view of people with a REAL civilized criminal rehabilitation system, like, you know, any Scandanavian country, y'all are just as much barbarians as y'all (not wrongly) think we are, and the both of us would think some third-world African shithole's "justice" system is.

    3 1 Reply
    1. Kurt Meyer
      Reply Icon

      Yes, you have written a load of bollocks.

      @ ShadowDragon8685

      "... they're trying to throw three states' and then the Federal system at him."

      The indictments are in:

      The US District Court for the District of New Jersey. Filed May 16th, 2013.

      The US District Court for the Southern District of New York. Filed February 21st, 2014.

      The US District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia. Filed May 21st, 2015.

      These are all Federal courts and Federal charges, there are no state charges filed against Mr. Love.

      You would know that if you had bothered to read the indictments linked to in the article.

      In your mitigation, the author of the article in question, Mr. Martin, could have done a much better job of describing the charges filed against Mr. Love.

      The charges will almost certainly be consolidated in one of the three districts, if for no other reason than cost savings. The Feds won't duplicate, much less triplicate, their efforts.

      1 0 Reply

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