back to article Fear and Brexit in Tech City: Digital 'elite' are having a nervous breakdown

As Brexit sends London's tech sector and Silicon Roundabout into post-traumatic shock, and protesters out onto the streets of London, inventor Andrew Fentem wonders "what sort of hippy free-for-all is this anyway?" While some sections of the British press celebrate the Brexit vote in the UK, in the technology press there has …

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          I think the four horseman are Gove, Dacre, Murdoch and Farage.

          Indeed.

          Gove or "Double Brutus" as he's been called over his "support" for call-me-Dave then signing up as Boris's "Campaign Manager" has been getting a lot of love from both Rupert and Dacre, or as we like to think of him, the husband of the owner of the Daily Heil.

          Ladies and gentlemen, time to grease those cheeks and grab those ankles.

          This is going to hurt.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Let cooler heads prevail...

        So no job for Boris? Shame on you.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Let cooler heads prevail...

      ...and Princess Diana is still dead

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge

          Re: Let cooler heads prevail...

          "It's now time for the return of King Arthur."

          he might have some trouble getting things through Parliament...

          1. InfiniteApathy
            Pint

            Re: Let cooler heads prevail...

            > he might have some trouble getting things through Parliament...

            Should sharpen his sword then

            1. Domquark

              Re: Let cooler heads prevail...

              "Should sharpen his sword then"

              Alas, that won't work. The gap between the (read: any) governing party (the government) and the opposition is a specific distance, which conforms to the ancient law of being "two swords and one inch apart". This serves as a reminder to solve issues by peaceful means.

              So, no sword play between Boris and Corbyn! Lightsabres outside anybody???

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Let cooler heads prevail...

                'Swordsman' and philandering Boris in the same discussion... that's conjuring some bad images

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv5vEd2WRQw - probably safe for work

              2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                Re: Let cooler heads prevail...

                "So, no sword play between Boris and Corbyn! Lightsabres outside anybody???"

                One could always try swinging the Mace.

    2. Shadow Systems

      Re: Let cooler heads prevail...

      Wait, the Horsemen *aren't* coming? DAMN! I was SO looking forward to getting an autographed picture of them! What does a World have to do to get the Horsemen to appear so we can get autographed pictures? Sheesh!

      (If you can't spot the sarcasm tag, I'll happily send one via Pony Express. *Grins*)

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Let cooler heads prevail...

      "Meanwhile, life carries on as normal."

      Yep. If only the stock brokers would think the same way. It's not really all that big a deal. It's just the the market traders see anything "different" as a reason to panic sell and then buy back on the cheap for more virtual profits. I'd imagine that certain people in the IT industry are responsibly for some of this too as the authors of the automated trading systems, especially the high speed margin stuff.

  1. Dr. Mouse

    Looking the wrong way

    You are looking the wrong way with this.

    What has depressed wages in jobs like these is not our membership of the EU, in itself. It is globalisation in general.

    In modern times, communications technology means that it is not even necessary to have your developer sat in the office with you. He can be at home, or in a cafe, or... on the other side of the world.

    People in less developed countries are training like mad in development, IT support, and all sorts of other professions. While they tend to have the reputation of producing lower quality work, they produce results which are "good enough" in many situations, for a fraction of the cost of someone in the UK.

    Freedom of movement in the EU is only a symptom of this. It allows a company to employ someone from Eastern Europe to sit in their office and work, instead of them working remotely.

    So I do not expect Brexit to increase wages, even if the economy is not damaged by it. On the contrary, I would expect that it will lead to more off-shoring of work, which will lead to less demand in the UK and, subsequently, more wage depression.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Looking the wrong way

      Exactly. The US isn't in the EU or anything like it and yet millions of jobs from manufacturing to coding to accounting / legal work to radiology have been outsourced to lower cost countries like Mexico, India and China.

      The main difference is that the people of the US have (in theory) the ability to vote out the people who make treaties or laws that allow / encourage such things to change them. The success of Trump's campaign shows that this isn't so easy....I guess you can argue that his success IS people trying to affect such change but even if he's elected as President he doesn't have the power to unilaterally abrogate existing treaties like NAFTA, or change the law to make outsourcing more difficult. The republicans in congress will still be firmly on the side of free trade, and many democrats as well (at best half of democrats would side with him, based on Bernie Sanders' results, but they might take a page from the republican playbook with Obama and decide to unify and be obstructionist against Trump and hope it makes him a one term president)

      In contrast, the UK has traded their sovereignty in some matters to the EU so the only way to make such changes is to leave the EU entirely. Instead of free movement into the UK (for coders, effectively as if the US had unlimited H1-B visas) so the work is done and taxes are paid within the UK, now those jobs will be outsourced. Those city companies won't hire junior coders for more money to work in the UK, they'll have their junior coders working in India and only have the senior level people based in the UK. Future startups might happen in Berlin or Barcelona and leave the UK out entirely. Instead of UK resident junior coders having their jobs priced down, they'll be eliminated completely - and the tax revenue the UK was collecting will go away.

      As stated, this is a problem with globalization, especially with regard to high speed worldwide communication making it almost as easy to work with someone in India as with someone the next floor up.

      The big problem with the EU is the alliance between rich and poor countries, with everyone trying to maintain their own budgets and standards of living. The poor countries only joined to become richer, and much of that happens due to the free trade and free movement. The US is a bit like that with the states, where the richest like California and New York are net contributors to the federal government and others like Mississippi are getting more money back than they put in, but these things move in cycles. When the confederate states tried to leave they were the richest ones and they supported the north. Maybe in 150 years Mississippi will again be among the richest states, who can tell?

    2. JLV

      Re: Looking the wrong way

      >globalisation in general

      +1

      Not to mention technical progress, which will massively accelerate as job-specific AI matures. Looking just at Uber and self-driving cars, for example, there is little doubt that we risk seeing entire chunks of jobs disappear in the next 20-30 years. Taxi and lorry drivers for example. But also reduced demand for entry-level accountants, less retail salespeople, etc...

      This will be hard to adjust to and it is by no means obvious that new jobs will appear to replace all of the old ones. In a perfect world, our respective electorates would be able to respond in a thoughtful fashion, rather than Luddit-ing away or just blaming all of their politicians and choosing to elect nitwits like The Donald.

      The signs aren't good so far. But democracy is a surprisingly robust system, despite its flaws.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Looking the wrong way

        As more and more jobs go away people WILL go "Ludditing away" because that will be the only way they can insure their survival. Otherwise everyone with an IQ below a certain level (that rises over time) will be obsolete in the workforce at some point, while those that own the robots claim the income they would have formerly been making.

        There are three choices in such a future:

        1) those people vote themselves a better deal (for some value of "better deal"...could be socialism/communism, could be outlawing robot/AI workers, lots of options)

        2) revolution

        3) the owners of the robots turn their robot army on the now-useless masses and exterminate them

  2. Jedit Silver badge
    Unhappy

    "Whatever happens after Brexit..."

    Don't be too quick to assume that London will remain popular after an EU exit. A lot of the banks are declaring plans to relocate, and France is pushing slyly to poach much of the rest.

    1. sabroni Silver badge

      Re: France is pushing slyly to poach much of the rest.

      You're referring to the push to move Euro Clearing into the Eurozone, yeah? Rather than having all their currency move through London. Seems more like common sense than being sly.

      1. breakfast Silver badge

        Re: France is pushing slyly to poach much of the rest.

        There's a little more to it than that- from what I could understand of what I was reading yesterday ( not a finance specialist! ) banks have a passporting system to trade in Europe. France look to be pushing for a deal that lets Britain have most of what they want from a post-EU deal aside from passporting our banks. We get free trade with some migration controls, they get the financial sector, but nobody here minds aside from people working in the financial sector and politicians because most people hate the banks.

        I don't know how much veracity there is to this suggestion, but it's interesting and seems like it would be a good move for France.

        1. maffski

          Re: France is pushing slyly to poach much of the rest.

          Here's the thing. Much as they might think otherwise politicians don't get to make everyone's choices. If they did the majority of Euro clearing would already be in the Euro zone. And if they found some way to do it, what use is a global currency you can only clear 10 hours a day? All they would do is ensure the Euro isn't used in international transactions.

          1. xnfec

            Re: France is pushing slyly to poach much of the rest.

            Actually, "France" is spread right around the globe. From France proper to Cayenne in South America, Martinique, Guadeloupe & St Martaan in the Caribbean. St Pierre & Miquelon off the coast of Canada, Tahiti, Wallis & Futuna, New Caledonia in the Pacific, Reunion and Mayotte in the Indian Ocean. With a bit of wire and few computers they could easily go 24/7/365

    2. H in The Hague

      Re: "Whatever happens after Brexit..."

      http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/26110868/___Brexitloket__in_Amsterdam__.html

      Apparently the UK desk of "In Business" which aims to attract overseas companies to Amsterdam has been extended. And the Netherlands Foreign Investment Agency is appointing two more staff to their London office to assist businesses considering relocation.

      So Boris, Farage, et al were right: Brexit will increase emloyment!

    3. John Miles

      Re: "Whatever happens after Brexit..."

      I'll be interested to see how many of those banks actually follow up on it when they remember France's desire to tax the finance world - link

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The current "plan" seems to be to introduce some form of "points-based" system for controlling which furriners can work in the UK. This has important economic implications as the rules and exceptions will be set up to benefit major contributors to the ruling political party of the day.

    PS: who are these political commentators in the mass media ? First they were shocked by the referendum result, now they're shocked that Johnson is not standing for the poison chalice that is leading the Tory party during the Brexit negotiations.

    1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      The current plan does not matter

      It will be at least two years before there is any chance of a new plan being implemented. That will be plenty of time for the Brexits to argue with each other about what the plan should be.

      1. Yes Me Silver badge

        Re: The current plan does not matter

        There is no current plan, and there never was one because the Leave campaign was entirely based on emotion and fantasy. The best plan I have is for 350 MPs to ignore the current party politics and vote a motion that explicitly forbids the Government from invoking Article 50.

        1. P. Lee

          Re: The current plan does not matter

          >The best plan I have is for 350 MPs to ignore the current party politics and vote a motion that explicitly forbids the Government from invoking Article 50.

          The "Leave Campaign" was always a fringe thing in terms of party politics - the vast majority of the mainstream politicians didn't want it. Those that did want it were Boris (buffoon with no eye on the top job in the Tory party), May (mostly hated), Gove (mostly hated). Farage - UKIPs *only* MP. Hardly a compelling team of winners.

          Despite that, most of the electorate did want it, however. What you are suggesting is that politicians ignore the the explicitly declared will of the people, because they (or perhaps you) know better.

          Perhaps the fact that UKIP only had one MP despite over half the turnout voting "leave" is an indication of just how strongly the political elite have manipulated the system so that it serves only their purposes. How could all the major parties be so out of touch with the electorate, unless they have an effective way to insulate themselves from them? Perhaps if the parties allowed more "loyal opposition" they might have been able to see where the people are and negotiate for an EU more in line with what people are willing to accept, rather than pressing ahead with their own agendas.

          The parties are supposed to represent the people. They've stopped doing that and when one small chink in the armour was spotted, the electorate took a wedge and jammed it in hard. It isn't just Westminster either. If MEPs represented the people and created an EU the people wanted, we wouldn't be in this situation.

          Meanwhile Project Fear continues apace. Why try to bury bad news when you can blame it on Brexit? Of course we can't blame "the people" so we'll blame "party politics," "the politicians" or "the campaign." While its true that revolutions are generally ugly, even Obama is lining up Brexit as the cause of worldwide economic disaster. I guess there will be no let-up, with all bad things blamed on it. Obama, Vodaphone and everyone else... all their problems will not stem from years of financial mismanagement, mountains of debt and poor judgment, nope, its because England didn't want to play nice with France. Your racism has doomed us all! How dare you not let other countries write your laws!

          There doesn't need to be a conspiracy to cause this situation, I suspect that its merely that politicians and much of society are so focused and dedicated to winning their arguments, that they cannot hear or admit any alternative explanations or plans to the ones they wish to put forward. How can you keep a grip on reality when "what is effective" trumps "what is true"?

          My view on the "cheap labour" issue is a little different. Those who want to go for the cheapest things will do so, be it to eastern Europe or India and their products will reflect that quality. More significantly, how did our economy get so out of sync with the rest of the world? If it was due to EU protectionism was that ever a sustainable position or would it require ever more subsidy to maintain? If we go it alone, should we replace EU protectionism with UK protectionism or will that damage us in the long term? Would reducing household debt be a more effective way to raise the standard of living than to prevent some wage competition?

          1. lorisarvendu

            Re: The current plan does not matter

            "Despite that, most of the electorate did want it, however. What you are suggesting is that politicians ignore the the explicitly declared will of the people, because they (or perhaps you) know better."

            We elect MPs because we hope they will form a Government that does know better than us. In this case I will still have to trust that they do. Because although someone may believe that they know better than the Government how to run a country, that doesn't mean they do.

            If a significant number of 600 member of Parliament vote to ignore the Referendum and not trigger the Exit process, then we have to believe that they may know better than us. Just because 52% of the public voted to Leave doesn't make them right, and doesn't mean it would be the best decision for the UK, any more than the 48% who voted Remain are right as well.

            We have to trust our democratically elected Parliament to lead us in this, because if we don't, what the hell is the point in having our current voting system anyway? Unless you're just going solely on the numbers and saying 17.4 million Leave votes trumps at most 600 MPs?

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: The current plan does not matter

              @ lorisarvendu

              "We elect MPs because we hope they will form a Government that does know better than us."

              And all along we were told that we would be fine outside, but they wanted to stay in. We were even encouraged that Cameron would campaign for out if he didnt get his impressive deal (that he watered down, was then rejected badly, then told us it was a victory). We were sold out to the EU by a traitor (potentially war criminal) and have finally had the referendum promised from the beginning. Just because the desperate tune changes at the last minute when the 'right' answer wasnt about to be given doesnt change the fact that we will do fine out like the many other countries.

              We also have the promise that the will of the people will be carried out hence the point of voting in the referendum. If we cant trust them that far then why should we trust they know what is right for us to the abandonment of our will?

              1. Disk0

                Re: The current plan does not matter

                In my lifetime there was a referendum about the European Community membership of the UK in 1975 and the vote by 67% was to stay In. So no history repeating this time.

            2. Lars Silver badge
              Happy

              Re: The current plan does not matter

              @ lorisarvendu

              I haven't read anything this guy has written earlier but I think he is thinking something similar.

              http://blogs.reuters.com/breakingviews/2016/06/29/hadas-britain-picks-the-wrong-time-to-play-games/

            3. Paul Shirley

              Re: The current plan does not matter

              We elect MPs because we hope they will form a Government that does know better than us

              We use representative democracy because:

              1: naked democracy is dangerous: prone to persecuting minorities, making decisions that can't be easily undone, too easily hijacked by emotion rather than facts

              2: it's inefficient

              We've stopped at a system that should be more efficient (but looking at the chancers infesting it might not be). More importantly, done right it provides the essential pauses before making damaging bad choices. Time to think, time to find facts, time to talk people down.

              Except our democracy has been captured by the party system, where often the only break on madness is convoluted legislative process injecting some delay. Where politicians have decided to be leaders instead of representatives. Where the voters can be manipulated and lied to at will.

              When they called for naked democratic voting they abandoned their purpose of moderating the madness. The only possible argument for letting these c**ts interfere is that they chose to interfere so monstrously in the voting. That's a justification for sacking the lot of them, possibly disbarring them from any public service, not an excuse to give them more power.

          2. Dr. Mouse

            Re: The current plan does not matter

            Those that did want it were Boris (buffoon with no eye on the top job in the Tory party), May (mostly hated), Gove (mostly hated). Farage - UKIPs *only* MP.

            Actually, there's 2 glaring errors, here.

            Firstly, May backed Remain. She pretty much kept her head down, but she was on the Remain side.

            Secondly, Nigel Farage is not an MP. He is an MEP. Douglas Carswell is UKIPs only MP.

            I'll leave the rest of it. I agree with some points, but disagree with most of it. However, you are entitled to your opinion, and I've had enough of arguing over politics from this campaign to last me a lifetime!

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: The current plan does not matter

              "Firstly, May backed Remain. She pretty much kept her head down, but she was on the Remain side."

              ISTM that she backed it only sufficiently to enable her to stay in the govt. if Remain won. She seems to have been strongly against anything from the EU that concerned her department.

              1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                Re: The current plan does not matter

                "ISTM that she backed it only sufficiently to enable her to stay in the govt. if Remain won. She seems to have been strongly against anything from the EU that concerned her department."

                Especially since she got the biggest and most kickings from the EU in terms of the Snoopers Charter. I suspect she is now quite happy with the result,

          3. ToddR

            Re: The current plan does not matter

            Farage isn't an MP, apart from that everything else you said was wrong too

          4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: The current plan does not matter

            "the explicitly declared will of the people"

            A small minority is not the explicitly declared will of the people. It's the vague feelings of a small percentage who could have voted differently the week before, could vote differently now and could vote differently again next week. It's the tail wagging the dog. An explicitly declared will is more like 2/3 of the voters - or even 2/3 of the electorate. A change of the status quo of this magnitude should require a referendum but it should also require a majority sufficient to demonstrate that the people are whole-heartedly behind it.

            1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: The current plan does not matter

              "An explicitly declared will is more like 2/3 of the voters - or even 2/3 of the electorate. A change of the status quo of this magnitude should require a referendum but it should also require a majority sufficient to demonstrate that the people are whole-heartedly behind it."

              Yeah, just like the conditions attached to the Scottish independence referendum. It does seem odd that similar conditions were not attached to what was effectively the same type of vote.

          5. fajensen
            Coat

            Re: The current plan does not matter

            Exactly! The politicians, with all those resources available, should have seen this coming for a decade or more!!

            Meanwhile Project Fear continues apace. Why try to bury bad news when you can blame it on Brexit?

            There is a huge overhang of mal-investment and straight-up fraud which was quietly buried in the rose patch and left festering after 2008. Of Course everyone with skeletons stacked in their closets, gardens and basement floor will seek to throw them in the skip now that there is opportunity to blame the losses on "other people".

            I wouldn't call that "Project Fear", because it's not propaganda; it business. Just riding that business cycle. Smooth and Easy.

          6. Wandering Reader

            Re: The current plan does not matter

            "Those that did want it were Boris (buffoon with no eye on the top job in the Tory party), May (mostly hated), Gove (mostly hated). Farage - UKIPs *only* MP. Hardly a compelling team of winners"

            May supported remain, Farage isn't an MP. Are paragraphs 2,3,4,5,6,7 any better?

        2. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: The current plan does not matter

          "The Leave campaign was entirely based on emotion and fantasy."

          And that's about the best summary. Farage is no fool, he knew bloody well that getting a leave vote would be bad for the kind of business he himself was in. He's a Court Jester.

          The looks on his and Boris' faces said a lot. They've entered a "Mouse that Roared" scenario and don't really know what to do next.

        3. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge

          Re: The current plan does not matter

          Yes Me

          Quote: "There is no current plan, and there never was one because the Leave campaign was entirely based on emotion and fantasy. The best plan I have is for 350 MPs to ignore the current party politics and vote a motion that explicitly forbids the Government from invoking Article 50."

          There is 1 minor problem with that.

          Its what you say to the people that voted leave..... it says your vote does'nt matter

          It says "we dont care how you vote"

          It says "if you vote the wrong way, we'll correct that for you"

          And given the people I work with as an example, what would happen is that they will stop voting for tories or labour or liberals and goto the people who will step into the gap left and say "We'll make your vote count" ie the extremists of left and right...... (B)loody (N)azi (P)arty anyone?

          1. MK_E

            Re: The current plan does not matter

            Have an upvote. That last part is especially true - pretending that public opinions outside of the mainstream don't exist, or sweeping them under the carpet and calling them fringe bigots or whatever, is exactly what drives otherwise reasonable people towards the fringe parties.

            Remember the outcry when Yorkshire voted in a BNP MEP? The establishment response was to scream and stamp their feet and call an entire county nazis while not actually bothering to look into what caused them to vote the way they did. UKIP, on the other hand, who were barely a footnote in british politics back then, moved into the position of "hey we'll represent you on this issue so you don't have to go for the COMPLETE racist lunatics" and suddenly seemed a much more attractive option. Basically ate the BNP's lunch in the process.

            If Brown had allowed a referendum on the Lisbon treaty like he promised, when anti-EU sentiment hadn't reached the boiling point it has in recent years, one of the biggest pieces of ammunition the leave campaign had, that it was undemocratic and that it didn't have a mandate, that we'd voted for a trade union and not a political one, would have been invalid.

            Dismissing people and calling them fringe lunatics or whatever other smear you can come up with doesn't magically make their concerns go away. All it does is make them ensure you're not in earshot before voicing them to whoever WILL listen.

          2. xnfec

            Re: The current plan does not matter

            If we don't trust the government to act in our best interest then why have them? http://www.roughtype.com/?p=7114 (After Math) says we no longer use or need our brains and politicians and the propaganda (PR) folks know how to manipulate us into backing whatever hare-brained scheme sells most papers/page views/biscuits.

            Let them vote. They can't make a worse mess than we already have.

        4. Aitor 1

          Re: The current plan does not matter

          Ignoring the referendum would be terrible,undemocratic and germany and france have already hinted that they would treat the referendum as an Article 50 invocation. It makes sense, as all politicians said they would implement the will of the people.

          1. Graham Dawson Silver badge

            Re: The current plan does not matter

            France and Germany can hint until they're blue in the face. Article 50 is quite explicit about how it is to be invoked. The government invokes it. Not the people, not the legislature, but the government.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The current plan does not matter

            "Ignoring the referendum would be terrible,undemocratic and germany and france have already hinted that they would treat the referendum as an Article 50 invocation."

            The referendum cannot be treated as an article 50 invocation under EU law. This states that notice must be given that follows the constituitional arrangemenst of the country concerned. The referendum had no provisions that it was binding and has legally in the UK no force whatsoever.

            Personally I think following the referendum is anti-democratic unless there is a vote in parliment. Parliment voted to join the EU and anything less than a vote in parliment to reverse that decision is anti-democratic and probably illegal and invalid. At the very least there could be a legal challenge if parliment doe snot vote creating even mor econfusion and uncertainty.

      2. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: The current plan does not matter

        "It will be at least two years before"

        No, it has to happen in 2 years AT MOST.

        1. ToddR

          Re: The current plan does not matter

          Nope, we have up to 2 years to invoke Article 500 and the renegoatiation can take 2 years more

          1. Jess

            Re: The current plan does not matter

            > Nope, we have up to 2 years to invoke Article 500

            We can do that when we like. (Assuming 500 is a typo)

            > and the renegotiation can take 2 years more

            After two years we are out on WTO rules if nothing else has been agreed.

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          No, it has to happen in 2 years AT MOST.

          Clause 50 has to be invoked.

          This has not been done yet.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like