Re: Parliamentary Sovereignty
C. Leave the EU based on a massive pack of lies presented by Vote Leave, The Hunchback and the Clown Frog.
[The following memo was found in a pilates studio in Shoreditch earlier this month, and forwarded to us anonymously. It is sourced to "BV Strategic Relations”, a highly secretive firm apparently registered in Panama, which describes itself as a "bespoke crisis management consultancy to governments”. The authenticity of the memo …
C. Leave the EU based on a massive pack of lies presented by Vote Leave, The Hunchback and the Clown Frog.
Err... have you checked the international news in the past few days? Checked the Pound? The stock exchanges?
Would you try to tell your wife "I asked my closest friends if I should divorce you, they said yes, I shall respect the will of my friends. But don't worry, it's not happening yet."? Se if SHE stays.
@DavCrav: Except it wasn't 26 to 24 was it? As a ratio yes, but as an absolute there were over a million extra votes to Leave. Don't like it? I don't care. It is the result that happened so get over it. If you want a clear majority vote in order to Leave then we should have also had a clear majority vote to take us deeper into the quagmire that the EU has become, only Labour didn't let that happen did they? The Treaty of Lisbon had already been overwhelmingly rejected by the Dutch (61+%), less so by the French (54+%), the UK didn't get its vote and we somehow all ended up as signatories. There are numerous others that have been signed that should perhaps also have required a majority vote. So quit complaining about the one that went the other way.
""We voted leave - when are you going to?"
It can be hard to imagine just how dense some people can be, but is it possible that some of these top-notch morons actually thought "Leave" was an instruction to foreign looking people?
The mind boggles...
"No, it wasn't politicians that said we would leave the EU. It was the people, and we spoke clearly"
I think you'll find nothing clear was said at all. A tiny majority in favour of leaving, most of whom were lied to wholesale or had no idea what they were voting on. Referenda are advisory at best. Many countries have several until they get the result the govt wanted in the first place.
"I think you'll find nothing clear was said at all. A tiny majority in favour of leaving, most of whom were lied to wholesale or had no idea what they were voting on. Referenda are advisory at best."
None of the remain people knew what they were voting for. They thought it was the EU as it is or to stop WW3. The result was clear. The rules were set out, the question asked and the result in without any doubt. And while referenda are advisory, that is not what was sold to the public by the PM himself who apparently can start article 50 without parliament. And the more twisting and corruption occurs the more hated the EU will be (including our participation of).
It's funny though - the EU is held up as corrupt and undemocractic, yet our own government behaves as badly or worse and we're assured this is a better thing. Presuambly because it's not foreign.
Plenty of people knew what they were voting for - stability, human rights, opposition to delights such as TTiP, green issues, economics. And then there was the leave campaign which sadly focussed on immigration, taking our country back (presumably to the 19th century) and spending non-existent money on the NHS. It may turn out to be true that we do eventually do better out of the EU, but I cant understand the mentality of someone that says to themselves "we're in an ok system, if we leave who knows, it might be better in 10 years". It's like Russian roulette.
As a remain voter and citizen by naturalization I too will be with you.
well you joke away but I heard my pencil was hacked at the polling station ?!
Not sure what to do about it. but hearing has become a lot harder with this tin foil hat on.
a good sum-up from a post in the Guardian:
I am not sure that the Guardian reported about this, so I just want to let you know that in the meantime, the EU has already moved on without you (see below).
Finally we got rid of the whinging arrogant sabotaging EU member and we can focus on the much needed reforms which the UK has been serially blocking for years.
During these three days, the horrible evil ineffective bureaucratic blah blah blah EU of 27 members has
(1) nominated our main negotiator and the negotiating team,
(2) showed clear-headed calm leadership and unity,
(3) sent a reassuring message to the financial markets,
(4) prepared a draft for further steps which our EU-27 representatives will start discussing tomorrow.
What exactly have the leaders of the most democratic fantastically sovereign highly effective UK done? In relation to the Brexit crisis, exactly ZERO, except making the damage to the UK (= the British people) and the rest of the world even WORSE by dragging their feet.
By the way, this decisive EU move towards more integration (which the EU-27 people support according to the polls and which has been in the making for a long time) means that the UK is less likely to get any kind of even remotely favourable deal with the EU by the minute. The more integrated we get, the more you are out.
I should also mention that with the Leave vote, you have automatically annulled the agreement struck during Cameron's blackmailing 're-negotiations'. Namely, the agreement that Cameron signed in your name contains an annulment clause in case of a Leave vote, and a further statement that there will be no renegotiations.
So the restrictions on EU immigrants claiming UK benefits, the exemption of the UK from the "ever closer union" etc. are GONE. And the EU has already moved towards further integration, as I explained above. Yes, the 'unreformable' EU is already on the way to reforms.
So the kind of EU that you voted about on Thursday, with yet more special treatment for the UK and further integration on halt, no longer exits. I think it is only fair you know this.
The world has moved on. It is time for you to do so too and trigger Article 50.
Well, the great exodus of capital and jobs from the UK will start tomorrow, because your Great Leaders are making sure to make the markets extremely nervous in relation to the UK's future outlook. Day four of the brave new UK will be a nightmare for the Brits. The clock is ticking against the UK whether you invoke Article 50 or not.
Note that none of this is the EU's fault = the fault of 440 million people in 27 other EU members. YOU are the ones who caused this.
The EU summit on Tuesday will be quite interesting, when Cameron as your representative meets the leaders of the other 27 EU members whom the Brits have just stabbed in the back, in spite of all our good will and patience. Will Cameron have the guts to trigger Article 50?
While the UK is consumed by petty infighting and lacks any kind of leadership, the rest of the world is moving on.
Have a nice isolated life.
Sad but largely true, probably won't be as bad as all that but it never had to happen. I do hope that Cameron gets his just desserts in history even though he will not suffer financially.
Rather, he will take a directorship (it always Barclays isn't it?) and go on speaking tours where people will pay him for his wisdom.
That beggars belief somewhat but there you go.
Unfortunately, this piece is, as one might expect from its source, quite wrong in various degrees...
"which the EU-27 people support according to the polls and which has been in the making for a long time"
According to the polls, this is fabulously untrue. Indeed, the reason why the EU is trying to rush the process is not because of trying to get it done and save uncertainty, but because a lot of EU nations want to hold referendums as well and there's a very large chunk of anti-EU feeling in certain nations right now, even France. The longer this goes on, the more unstable the EU becomes and more likely others will vote out or will return very worrying numbers of people who want out. The EU politicos know this.
"(2) showed clear-headed calm leadership and unity,"
You mean apart from Junckers going off on one (he has calmed down now), the Polish EU commissioner (who clearly has no clue of history) etc.etc. The most sensible sounding ones are Merkel (she knows she's hanging on by a thread) and the French PM (who has twigged what the problem is).
"What exactly have the leaders of the most democratic fantastically sovereign highly effective UK done? In relation to the Brexit crisis, exactly ZERO, except making the damage to the UK (= the British people) and the rest of the world even WORSE by dragging their feet."
That's exactly the point. Action is not always the best course. In this case, inaction is. The more we let the EU population mull this over, the more the EU politicians sweat as they know a large amount of their population are not happy with the EU either. Inaction in this case, is the best action.
The piece is fantastically biased, factually inaccurate and clearly from a rabid remainer. By the way, before anyone comments on my stance. I made my decision for reasons not mentioned by either campaign and ignored them both, as they were equally appalling. Trying to implement single rules across such diverse cultures as present in the EU will always fail. People simply won't tolerate it. So, the EU will fall at some point, it's just a question of when. The EU has a stated policy of more and more centralised integration and single rules for all (taking out all differences across the EU) and history has time and again shown this simply won't work over the size of the EU and even much smaller areas. Extremely tight, inflexible integration (as proposed by the EU) has always ended badly.......it just takes time.
Of course it's rubbish, it's in the Guardian. One of the two most bottom-feeding gutter-rags in the UK (world) along with its polar opposite the Daily Mail.
It just sounds like someone bitter foaming at the mouth.
Personally I am remain, but whilst I know this exit thing is going to hurt me financially, I will adjust and adapt as necessary. I'm already prepared.
But I do feel sorry for people with big tracker mortgages and heavy debt, because they have much less room to manoeuvre and they are going to be rogered.
Junker and Merkel are playing the bad/good cop, don't worry. Merkel will accurately calculate how to suit best German interests - not UK ones - and then will act.
Hollande has so many personal troubles at home, it will try to use this to reinforce his fully tarnished image. It will try to increase France weight, but others are already stepping in (Italy, for example). And he has Le Pen to care of, so he will had a touch of French nationalism as well, and that won't bode well for UK.
All of them are looking at how much they could exploit this situation without crippling their business towards UK too much. Still, everybody wants to gain from the situation.
Meanwhile, if UK doesn't send the formal request, it just tells other "exiters" that yes, EU is bad, but we are too worried about exiting truly - before we want to be reassured our wasn't a true mistake. Just, the more it waits, the more it tells it fears to actually exit. Meanwhile until it doesn't, it is fully obliged to comply with the actual EU rules, and if it whines, guess what the answer will be?
Of course people like Farage are not ready yet to renounce to the monthly 7,000 euro plus other benefits the EU gives them. Spitting in the plate is OK, just leave the plate on my table, please.
Well said. Perusing the european press sites shows a union falling apart, hence the noises of a Germany - France super state. Pushing ahead for closer intergration right now, will just force the hands of the countries that are dealing with unrest over an out vote.
Personally I'm not that bothered about the negotiations with the EU as it won't be around much longer. We should start talking to South Korea and it's car makers, that would certainly get VW leaning on the German govt to allow a deal through.
Merkel will accurately calculate how to suit best German interests - not UK ones - and then will act.
Same old EU then.
A bit obnoxiously formulated, but not far off.
I will add to that.
With UK no longer in position to press anything.
1. TTIP is dead and no amount of effort will make it rise and shuffle about. The Germans and French will kill it.
2. The Eu-wide opposition to genetically modified crops, hormone-buggering pesticides, etc has just solidified into rock solid. There will be no-one to sabotage that regulatory process either.
3. The level of sabotage on green energy initiatives, city and water pollution regulations has just dropped significantly too.
And so on. While the initial reaction to Leave amidst Europeans was positive towards the UK staying this is very quickly becoming Good Bye and Good Riddance and it will only continue in that direction. Just to be clear - this is not based on reading the Graunidad. I am following the opinions of the media in a couple of European countries and they are going exactly in this direction. I would expect them to start agitating openly for "Goodbye and Good Riddance" by Thursday at this rate.
"Trying to implement single rules across such diverse cultures as present in the EU will always fail."
Such diverse cultures?
I bet you that cultural differences are minimal, and mostly superficial between most EU countries!
Yes, the Brits are much better at queueing and saying please and thank you than most other nationalities, but that's about it (and this politeness seems to evaporate once a car door is shut). Well, maybe less prone to make "towel reservations". But then again, there is Magalluf.
The similarities between cosmopolitans throughout Europe are much greater than the similarities between the rural population and the city dwellers within the UK.
Petty, it's not true. Being a citizen of the closest ally to UK in EU, Sweden, who joined EU with a 51-49 vote, and as UK, not part of the Euro-zone, we're a bit worried of the sentiment against UK right now. To be honest, we would have agreed with Brexit if it was for the right reasons and not xenophobic, "they will steal our jobs" BS. There were plenty of reasons for leaving EU, you just picked the wrong one and by that reason you are now perceived lower than Greece. There are a few, mostly very vocal right wing groups, that shout about referendums, but in the greater populous they just want this to finish fast (and in many cases not very nice for UK). As a Swedish citizen I now worry that the union will move faster in the wrong direction when UK is not helping us block the most insane suggestions. Even so, most leaders and people in EU wants this over with, so we can go on with our lives, and if they can punish UK (and scare some other member from leaving), that's a bonus.
"Such diverse cultures?
Don't know how much you've travelled, but yes, the cultures are very different. Especially when you also count eastern europe and the Med. Just look at financial culture. Northern Europe is strict, with (relatively) good financial management and people pay their taxes. The Med (lets say Greece) only pay taxes when it suits, splash money around like water (especially when its low interest loans due to joining the Euro....after their entry was fixed), build up huge debts and then cry about it when it all comes home. Then, they expect everyone else to bail them out, or they'll crash the Euro!!
Cultures in all sorts of ways are vastly different. Name a coountry of anywhere the same size as the EU that has implemented centralised, single rule government and survived? Don't talk about the USA, as their structure is much more flexible with each state having considerable power of its own. They are nowhere near the same as the EU.
"Even so, most leaders and people in EU wants this over with, so we can go on with our lives, and if they can punish UK (and scare some other member from leaving), that's a bonus."
Ah, the Juncker method. Really good way of keeping things together........scare members from leaving!! As a way of maintaining unity, holding a gun to peoples heads is a pretty poor way. Again, look through history and see who's managed to hold a country together for any length of time using that method. Insanity.
The reason people voted to leave wasn't xenophobia. Not saying there weren't some, but it wasn't that for most. The press and a load of politicians are portraying it as such, but it's much more a rebellion against politicians in general.
Call me crazy, but I don't think USA has less integration between states than the EU has between sovereign nations... So, yes, I'd like to mention the USA as an example with big cultural differences, but tight economical integration.
It is true that levels of corruption and attitude towards the state, as well as the state's ability and inclination to collect taxes, varies a lot. But we still have individual states. If they fail in their commitments, they are either excluded from the EU or have to make amends.
So why pretend that the EU is bad on a fictive premiss that we are integrated into one nation?
"The reason people voted to leave wasn't xenophobia. Not saying there weren't some, but it wasn't that for most."
Sadly, you are completely wrong about this. Completely.
a lot of EU nations want to hold referendums as well
You make a confusion between 'EU nations' and 'far right parties from EU nations' who are fast to exploit xenophobia to develop their nationalist, fascist vision of the World.
That's exactly the point. Action is not always the best course. In this case, inaction is
Others may well act and move during this time, doing nothing will only lead to a spectacular loss of credibility for UK, or rather England+Wales, UK having just committed suicide.
@ anonymous boring coward
"The reason people voted to leave wasn't xenophobia. Not saying there weren't some, but it wasn't that for most."
Sadly, you are completely wrong about this. Completely.
You dont speak for me. You are wrong
Yep, we did the same with the Euro election in Sweden, but this is about perception and the perception among the vast majority of EU is that UK is a xenophobic country that thinks it is more elevated economically/politically/culturally than the other EU countries. The British media has made this picture even more prevalent in Europe. Sad, but true.
It might go the other way ... everybody suddenly sees the benefits of being part of the EU now that GB shows what it means to quit. German news definitely don't show increased euro-scepticism, but finally start to explain what the EU actually does and how GB will be affected by leaving.
I expect everybody to sit back and watch the British experiment.
Well, you aren't "most people", are you? Just the one person.
I find it quite funny when some thicko showing off a large swastica tattooed on his arm says "I'm not racist" on TV. Guess by such flexible interpretation anyone can be "not xenophobic" regardless of views.
"But I do feel sorry for people with big tracker mortgages and heavy debt, because they have much less room to manoeuvre and they are going to be rogered." You might feel sorry for them but it was the people who mostly could not afford a mortgage because of the lack of financial resource to be able to afford one who will not feel sorry for them as they are not even on the bottom rung of the housing ladder.
I agree with you saying that all newspapers are gutter trash not even fit for being used for fish 'n' chips as they all have their own particular bias and I know of no actual real News Paper anymore !
I also find it quite funny the amount of votes that the Gov Petitions site has accumulated but anyone here knows that with one's own domain name one can create millions of false votes as they don't require any true identification to authenticate with to prove UK voter's identity, just a simple script and having a domain name, it might become apparent of the vote goes past 100m - rofl
"The reason people voted to leave wasn't xenophobia. Not saying there weren't some, but it wasn't that for most. The press and a load of politicians are portraying it as such, but it's much more a rebellion against politicians in general."
I agree whole heartedly with this statement as that is why I voted leave and the other reason was that Politicians always blame EU for everything, so now the ball good or bad will be completely in their court so to speak - after 1 year of exiting EU - I will give then 1 years grace ( I mean their continued excuses will only be valid upto 1 year after exiting the EU) after that OFF with their HEADS !
What does "diverse cultures" mean here?
The EU is about tedious agreement on things like how wide a push fit domestic water pipe fitting should be, or harmonizing employment rights across countries.
Diverse cultures, just sounds wrong here, perhaps you could expand on the idea.
Different economical models, sure. but culture, nah not buying it.
If nothing else, we all drive on the same side of the road, which does add to a feeling of familiarity wherever we go.
The EU has openly stated its aims. It wants a single set of rules (laws) across all member states and all areas of legislation. It's been slowly and methodically hitting more and more areas every year since it began. Not saying having central rules is a problem, but all....no. The latest openly stated areas are welfare and tax. So, the EU is (in the long run) after central control of everything. They don't try to hide it.
The USA is very different. Yes, there is a load of central rules (laws), but each state has considerable individual flexibility and uses it very openly. They can pass their own laws (and some are very different from state to state) and raise taxes etc.etc. Even individual cities have their own taxes and laws. This is a totally different model to the EU model, which is central control, no variance.
So, the EU is more of a Soviet EU in model than a USA.
@anonymous boring coward
"Sadly, you are completely wrong about this. Completely."
Well, unless you believe somewhere close to half the population are racists (in which case immigrants would be hanging in the streets), you've been reading and sucking up the rubbish put out by politicians, the BBC and some newspapers. I know a lot of leavers and none of them did it for immigration and none of them are racists.
"The EU has openly stated its aims. It wants a single set of rules (laws) across all member states and all areas of legislation"
Harmonisation is not the same thing as control.
There will be resistance where necessary on certain things, which will never be completely harmonised, simply due to local differences such as climate or demographics.
And every nation can always use its sovereignty to pull out of the EU. A super state would be 100 years in the future, and won't happen unless it is a natural painless step. So it may never happen.
Up yours. By the way, you are welcome to your "closer integration" which translated equals additional imposition of stupid and counterproductive rules imposed by a tiny "elite" living in a bubble generously paid for by your taxes.
Welcome also to all the economic refugees coming your way and the social and economic chaos thus engendered, we're not taking any of them.
Welcome to to your fascist overlords, good luck on getting any say whatsoever in who they are and what they do. The reforms will be what they decide is "good" you, I do hope you agree with their choices because, bad luck being you if you don't.
Oh, and we agree about the petty infighting amongst our politicians; shrug; it's what stupid politicians (but I repeat myself) do. Give yourselves a few more weeks and you'll be doing the same.
Welcome too, to trying to keep the lid on more nations starting the same process to identify and isolate the fascists in Brussels, you might need to ask Merkel to resurrect her experiences with the Stasi, you're going to need them.
All the said restrictions will not only continue to apply, we will also cut all payments to the EU effective immediately, good luck on filling that $200 million a week hole in your already overstretched budget, we can use the cash as we like.
Welcome too to trade restrictions if you go down that street; it's a two way thoroughfare and you have more to lose than us, ask your average German car manufacturer for a start. Cut off your own nose to spite your face (you're pretty good at that so it shouldn't be hard to do) if you wish, we expect nothing less than peevish stupidity after all. Free trade actually benefits all, but we do expect you to be too closed minded and actually too stupid to recognize that.
I do find it odd that many people who voted to leave characterise the EU's attempts to facilitate exactly what they wanted as "holding a gun to people's heads".
As an outsider (NZ if anyone cares) , I think the analogy of a failed marriage is apt - albeit a very polygamous relationship with 28 people. Britain is Miss Piggy, a high-maintenance partner who was once the belle of the ball, but is now "of a certain age". She's been a demanding partner, and because squeaky wheels generally get the oil, she's got a lot of concessions.
But now she's chucked a tantrum and decided to leave. Her froggy partners have sighed, and said "OK, if that's what you really want, lets do it" because there is no point in prolonging the pain of a break up. To which Britain gets even more upset and screams "What a terrible thing to say - how dare you try and force me to... do the... very thing I said I wanted?".
Yup, Britain is the Miss Piggy of the world. Good luck with your future relationships, but please don't come calling on your former Commonwealth boyfriends - we've moved on.
Not to mention that Europeans have been fighting each other for a very long time.
The Greeks went rampaging around the world. The Italians brought them down and occupied much of Europe up to the edge of Scotland. The Germans attacked them and brought down their empire... and we haven't even got to 500 AD yet.
Europe isn't a country. The people who live there don't see it as a country. If cancelling an international trade treaty causes this much pain, we probably shouldn't have signed it.
Personally, I suspect there are major problems in the financial system. If GBP can drop 10% overnight then its grossly disconnected with economic reality. In that case, the pain was destined to arrive at some point and its probably better to get it now than let the problems pile up for later.
>Germans strongly back EU membership, oppose referendum - poll
So you're saying the Germans are so strongly in favour of EU membership that they oppose being asked if they are in favour of the EU membership?
Perhaps their leaders have more sense than Cameron had, then to *actually* ask people what they wanted.
"But now she's chucked a tantrum and decided to leave."
It's more like Miss Piggy asked her sowfriends what she should do, and half said leave, and the other half said stay. (One half dead, half eaten sow also said leave.)
Miss Piggy didn't tell her frog lovers either way, but they overheard the consultation, and because they are now pissed off little froggies they told her to first declare that the leave-friends won the argument (albeit only by a few bacon rashers), and immediately pick up her purse and many lipsticks and get the hell out of the pigsty.
Some might say that it's better to not do things in haste and anger.
"Yup, Britain is the Miss Piggy of the world. Good luck with your future relationships, but please don't come calling on your former Commonwealth boyfriends - we've moved on."
But who is now going to kiss the froggies and turn them inte princes?
"Don't talk about the USA, as their structure is much more flexible with each state having considerable power of its own. They are nowhere near the same as the EU."
Not that familiar with the US system but I rather thought they had a President running the country, federal income tax, a national defence force, etc. Sounds rather more integrated than the EU.
Hi - So having bankrupted Greece and Cyprus, impoverished Portugal, Spain and Italy what is the EU going to do now? More rules on employment, financial services, electrical goods, vegetables?
I know very few who admit to voting leave. The only one I do know of - my mother - did it exactly because she doesn't like the "groups of foreigners" who are on the street when she goes shopping. Apparently, the groups of Pakistani and Bangladeshi people immediately before this, or the groups of English people before that, were no problem ... At no point have the finer points of democracy been mentioned - just the foreigners (I also suspect she hopes that my Czech wife will be escorted to the nearest airport).
This just goes to show that your simple "I know a lot of leavers and ... none of them are racists" is, just the same as mine, an anecdote with no value.
@Potemkine: Let's see how the EU goes long term shall we? Not looking too financially stable at present. Germany bankrolls it. Italy needs to bail out the banks again. All looking shaky now another net contributor disappears.
"Let's see how the EU goes long term shall we? Not looking too financially stable at present. Germany bankrolls it. Italy needs to bail out the banks again. All looking shaky now another net contributor disappears."
I think things are much more dynamic than this.
With the U.K. now being unattractive, there will be many opportunities for economic expansion in continental Europe -especially in anything EU driven, such as scientific research. Nordic countries, for example, will be banging on the funding door, as will any other nations with historically strong scientific research.
This would lead to EU gaining in popularity.
EU citizens (note to Brexiters: that's just a convenient term for citizens of countries in the EU, ok?) will see the debacle and economic downturn in the UK, and decide that the EU is definitely a good thing.
The resulting economic upturn in the EU will cover any losses from the UK net input. I am not sure how big the net contribution actually was, but given all that's come back in many forms, I would be surprised if it was anywhere near as much as the Brexiters have claimed.
"a rebellion against politicians in general"
Of course - the EU was portrayed by Boris et al as an undemocratic monolith. How dare a bunch of MEPs (that we elect, if we can be bothered to turn up to vote) have the power to approve or disapprove policy proposed by the EU commissioners? Totally unlike our own system where the cabinet is selected (not elected) by the PM, and an unelected second house.
A rebellion against politicians that's left us with a PM elected by 0.2 % of the electorate and in the hands of the TTiP supporting nutjobs called the conservative party. Thanks a lot.
"Welcome to to your fascist overlords, good luck on getting any say whatsoever in who they are and what they do"
You mean the tory government? Yeah I'd agree. Funnily enough most of the counterproductive and stupid rules that affect our country are purely British in origin. Even funnier, we are now likely to be in the same position as Switzerland - bound by EU regulations (if we want to benefit from the EU trade) and still paying in to it, but unable to have any say in how it's run.
So you're saying that the EU cant ever integrate because of things that happened over 2000 years ago? Blimey no wonder all the leave voters think they can go back to the days of empire and commonwealth
So you're saying we will pay through the nose for brexit?
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