back to article PM resigns as Britain votes to leave EU

The UK has voted to leave the European Union, confounding the polls, the "experts" and the British establishment in the biggest turnout for a vote here in 24 years. Prime Minister David Cameron announced his resignation at 8:30am this morning. The count stands at 51.9 per cent Leave, and 48.1 per cent remain – and more than a …

Anonymous Coward

Re: "on-going economic crisis in Southern Europe"

Just it's not EU to have created it. The blame is on a string of corrupt, inefficient, greedy *local* governments that created it breaking the EU rules

Local governments encouraged by the EU, through money and grants for "regional identities", because it isn't the interests of Brussels to have strong, united contries able to oppose the EU. Better to encourage fragmentation under the "divide and conquer" approach. A UK squabbling over devolution and Scottish independence, or a Spain trying to fend off Catalan secession, is going to be too preoccupied with internal divisions to present a united front to Brussels.

Well, Brussels will now reap what it sowed. Best of luck to us all.

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Re: We all know what happened

"No, seriously.

Move to somewhere out of your normal comfort zone and you will see. I have done so twice."

You made no real point here, other than, there is a few racists. As stated, people labeling all of Leave as racist and bigots is nothing other than an ad hominem attack that adds nothing of value. The remain campaign did nothing compelling at all and gave no real arguments for remaining in Europe but rather attacked the leave campaign.

Now let me go further to say that I never called anybody elitist or middle class, so thank you for your lack of anything meaningful...

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Re: We all know what happened

I hope you meamt baristers.... the pubs are closing too quickly for us all to be come baristas

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Happy

@Alister: Re: We all know what happened

Alister,

Please share the statistically valid info evidencing your statement that 'loads of folk voted to leave with immigration being there primary concern?'

Either way, what is wrong with them having an opinion that you disagree with?

Kind regards,

Jay

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This post has been deleted by a moderator

Re: We all know what happened

Not tarring everyone with the same brush, It's been said before: all brexiteers aren't racist but all racists are brexiteers.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: We all know what happened

"the completely false premise that "we can control our own borders now""

That's not false - it's absolutely correct - we CAN now fully control our borders - and we couldn't from within the EU.

If our government make the required effort and investment to do so is another matter - Don't forget that Labour under Bliar deliberately let in hundreds of thousands from 3rd world countries in the hope of gaining votes....

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Re: We all know what happened

"Well the financial experts will have decamped to Frankfurt"

I'm guessing you havn't been to Frankfurt. It's not exactly an attractive location for someone well paid to chose to locate themselves... The risk of that happening is pretty close to zero.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: We all know what happened

"will become a nation of "financial consultants" and baristas."

Won't all the baristas mostly have to go back to Eastern Europe?

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WTF?

Re: We all know what happened

"What it is come to is a large percentage of the country are not necessarily racists, but idiots who bought the lies that the Leave campaigners unashamedly spun."

I think roughly 52% of the country would say "fuck you" to that unbelievably arrogant statement.

Just because the country voted to leave the EU (not exactly resoundingly voted but there we go) against YOUR personal beliefs does not make them idiots, racists, biogots or any of the other deeply bitter and nasty epithets people seem to be chucking around right now. You choose to live in this so-called Democracy, how about dealing with it rather than being unpleasant about the majority of it when things don't go your way?

To my mind, the real disgrace here is simply this. We were told to make the biggest single socio-economic and political decision of the the next god knows how many generations and BOTH sides gave absolutely zero credible or useful facts. The whole shower of them both resorted to childish "he's lying, no he's lying more" school ground BS. We deserved better and they failed to deliver.

The whole damn lot of them should be sacked. Every single one of our Political Overlords, regardless of stance, should be out on their ear for epically failing the people by failing to prepare them properly for the enormity of this decision.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "on-going economic crisis in Southern Europe"

Actually, Catalonia is one of the richest area of Spain. It has the higher GDP, but surprisingly people in Madrid and Basque Country earn more per capita. Ask you why...

The banks who went bad in Italy are in Veneto, Emillia-Romagna, Toscana and Marche, especially the first two among the richest regions in Italy and among the wealthiest in Europe as well. Regions that pay in taxes a lot more of what they get back.

Unlike Scotland, they want independence exactly because they are tired to see the wealth they produce dissipated by inept and corrupt governments in other areas. And they see very little EU funds. The EU is not the biggest problem. Income tax, VAT and other taxes are asked by the state, not the EU.

It looks your knowledge of "southern Europe" is very limited. Its not the EU which created that situation, it predates the EU and goes back to the XIX century, if not earlier like in Spain (which had much more issues in Basque Country).

Greece, AFAIK, has no much issue about "regional identity", but its squabbles with Turkey about Cyprus and other boundary territories which is also used by state officials to ensure military expenditures (military people and their families vote) and related bribes are kept high enough.

But it is true that a lot of EU funds for "depressed areas" are also dissipated to gain electoral consensus, without a proper auditing by EU, because it will put it on a true collision course with many governments that uses EU funds to cover their inefficiencies and keep people calm. And because EU is made of officials appointed by the state governments, officials often from the same areas who obtain the funds... guess what happens? And where's the problem? In the EU or the single states?

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Re: We all know what happened

But we can't do it NOW .. we can do in two and a bit years AFTER we have negotiated an exit.

But not now - for now its just eactly the same as yesteraday and teh day before that.

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Re: "on-going economic crisis in Southern Europe"

"Thereby, yes, believing EU is to be blamed for what It didn't, it's a form of racism. "

Ok, lets go with your argument there - which race has been discriminated against then?

Simple question. Lets see if you can answer it.

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Re: We all know what happened

It is like this everywhere sadly.

In good times people are accepting.

In bad times then people roll on the protectionism.

US dislikes Mexicans and Chinese.

UK/Ireland dislikes the Polish.

2% growth everywhere in the world at the same time forever is impossible.

Our "Core" values these days are built on increasing monetary wealth and nothing else.. That's how you end up with hate. I love the idea of socialism but generally it fails in worse ways - so for now we will thrive with the hate I guess, and everyone can become more insular.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: We all know what happened

It wouldn't surprise me at all if half the population were bigots and racists. In fact, I'd be surprised if the proportion is that low. Suspicion and fear of those outside our own tribe is not merely a cultural phenomenon, it's baked into our DNA. We evolved with it. Even if you recognise that, and even if you accept that this trait is a problem in the modern world, it's still a difficult tendency to overcome, and an easy one to stimulate in others.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: We all know what happened

That's not false - it's absolutely correct - we CAN now fully control our borders - and we couldn't from within the EU.

WRT controlling borders, I presume there's a chance that a Brexit now means that the agreement we have with the French that means UK border control have a station in France (and possibly, by implication, caused the migrant "village" to spring up in Calais) could come to an end.

How much would the French government like to wave through anyone heading to Britain and let them deal with us in our own "controlled" borders. Therefore moving all the migrants, camps and troubles from Calais to Dover?

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Re: We all know what happened

Yes.

As someone who felt Remain would have helped us better, it seems to me that now we're leaving there is a real need to make Britain a better place. We're British, we make the best of things and muddle through and we need to stick with this.

But we also need to talk. A lot of people voted Leave because they were angry and close to the edge and that didn't happen because of the EU - if anything they were probably benefiting from EU investment - but their sentiments were whipped up by a particularly malevolent campaign and they were already close to the surface because of decades of cascading failure on the part of multiple governments. We need to be able to engage with these people, to help them find a positive direction. I don't know what that will take, but I don't think it exists on the current political landscape. Post Brexit Britain will be what we make it, so maybe we all need to work on making it something amazing, rather than the disaster the Leave campaign so urgently desire.

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Re: We all know what happened

"How much would the French government like to wave through anyone heading to Britain and let them deal with us in our own "controlled" borders. "

Newsflash - we were never part of Schengen anyway. Controlling our borders relates to unrestricted movement of EU citizens, not non EU or illegals.

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(Written by Reg staff)

Re: Re: We all know what happened

Good to see the debate on Brexit is once again bringing out the best in everyone. Tone it down, people.

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Re: We all know what happened

Manufacturing might actually get better off. It's the financial consultants, no longer free to tout their services around Europe free of barriers, who are likely to suffer. And your barista will likely sound suspiciously more local, rather than, say, Romanian, in a few years' time.

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Re: We all know what happened

I've been to Franfurt, pleasant enough, I would be happy to live there

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Anonymous Coward

Re: We all know what happened

"You choose to live in this so-called Democracy, how about dealing with it rather than being unpleasant about the majority of it when things don't go your way?"

That's exactly why we should have stayed!

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Re: We all know what happened

How much would the French government like to wave through anyone heading to Britain and let them deal with us in our own "controlled" borders. Therefore moving all the migrants, camps and troubles from Calais to Dover?

Our agreements with France over border control are not reliant on the EU and do not involve the EU.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "on-going economic crisis in Southern Europe"

@"Italy has more 10,000 state/region/town -controlled companies. A large percentage of them with more high-paid administrators and executives than employees. Most of them in the red, requiring tax payers money to survive"

Italy has a 4.52 billion euro read *surplus*, UK has a 3.3 billion GBP trade *deficit*. When you talk about corruption, you miss the insane amount of money that was printed and shoved into worthless derivatives to prop up the city boys.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: We all know what happened

One of the finance houses is already prepping to move 2000 staff to Frankfurt and Ireland

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Anonymous Coward

Re: We all know what happened

If you look at the demographics Brexit was supported by people 50+ largely - this suggests an element of nostalgia for something that is disappearing or is imagined to be disappearing - while this is partly understandable - there is a large element of racism in a portion of that age range across all income classes. (As per undercover reports from my elderly but liberal parents who live in a very affluent area in the North of England which was pro brexit). To deny that this played a significant part in the effectiveness of the leave campaign when the economic case for staying was pretty overwhelming is willful blindness. I'm not saying that all brexit campaigners are racists but its impact was there. Also reading the daily mail for decades doesn't help rational decision making.

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Unhappy

Re: We all know what happened

"I hope you meamt baristers...."

No. I meant what I said.

"the pubs are closing too quickly for us all to be come baristas"

Exactly.

But who knows ? Maybe Dr Minford is wrong and the UK mfg won't be flushed down the toilet of history , along with every high tech development (SABRE & Skylon?, SiC power semiconductors?)

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@Mr Commenty McComentface -- Re: We all know what happened

Well said. I see the same BS here in the States. Just shouting and fingerpointing. No real discussion by any side. I daresay that the end of civilization and democracy as we knew it are coming. No longer do we have intelligent debates. We have sound bites. We have blame given for everything and no responsibility taken for anything. Examining agendas is at best, difficult since usually one should "follow the money", but many times, that's very well hidden by those the crave power.

The world has changed. I'm not sure it's for the betterment of the population at this point or for the betterment of those who seek to be masters, either politically or monetarily.

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Re: We all know what happened

yeah. it's the death knell of the hypocritical virtue signalling politically correct Left.

And the Labour party.

'Voters defied warnings that a Leave vote would "destroy Western political civilisation", '

No. Voters voted to precisely destroy Western political civilisation

Everyone is BORED with whinging minging neo-marxists who in 60 years have failed to solve a single problem

Look at the comments. Emotional nonsense. From people who have bought into the Lefts Narrative.

Or are cynically using it to protect their privilege in an EU sponsored lifetstyle

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Paris Hilton

Re: We all know what happened

interersting to analyse your post.

'they' are ,'stupid', 'believed lies' and 'shouldn't have been allowed to interfere with the proper way of things'

a more heartfelt cry for undemocratic fascism would be hard to find.

Oh, hang on wasn't that one of the 'lies' the leavers were telling about the EU?

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Re: We all know what happened

> And wheather there is any mfg left in the UK or it will become a nation of "financial consultants" and baristas.

I give it a month at most before most of the vehicle makers say they're off to pastures continental.

One of the more immediate impacts of the Brexit vote is that the EU can simply _cancel_ (or suspend with immediate effect) programs investing funding into the UK regions - you know, the same ones who mostly voted "leave" (ahem: Wales, Cornwall, ex-industrial North) along with farming subsidies. The UK is now locked off the table on that so there's absolutely nothing which can be done.

Buyer's remorse simply isn't enough to describe what's about to happen next. Cornwall is already starting to realise just what they've done.

As for the "at least 2 years" mantra, anyone who looks at article 50 will realise it's at MOST 2 years to negotiate an exit and the EU doesn't have to care about the state of UK law or civil service and won't care if the door hits us on the way out.

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Re: We all know what happened

"One of the finance houses"

All of them are. Those which weren't already actively making plans will have started the ball rolling on Friday morning.

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Re: We all know what happened

What a superb example of the unadulterated bigotry you are so quick to accuse others of.

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Re: We all know what happened

What it has come to is that a large percentage of the country are not necessarily racists, but complete idiots who bought the lies that the STAY campaigners unashamedly spun.

These were the same lies the anti EU campaigners told when Britain first joined the EU (or common market as it was then). They were lies then and they are lies now.

Did Lloyd's go to Europe? NO

Did any English banks or businesses move their head offices to Europe? NO

Etc Etc

Does the EU prohibit the making of old style English sausages, bananas over a certain size, etc, etc, from now being made or imported into the UK. YES

Staying in the EU will not address any of the challenges facing the UK in the 21st century.

BUT it will make it FAR easier in tackling them because the dead hands in Brussels will no longer be trying to balance 20 nations differing agendas. This means that decisions that now take years will only take months.

Those funny accented people that you up market Londoners never see, so cannot understand are the source of a percentage of our woes like a shortage of medical and educational facilities because the population has far outstripped the taxpayer base? They're not going back to where they came from, and no-one expects them to BUT others are not going keep flooding in.

This reduction will SLOWLY cause those here to assimilate more and cause many of the younger ones to adopt British ideals and, as the taxpayer base expands as a percentage of the population, allow for better education and medicine to again be provided.

So if that is what you voted against, you've been a mug.

Yes, many have got jobs and are a part of the economy that this vote has done its best to revive. No-one is going to require them to leave, any more than the millions of UK citizens in Europe are going to be forced back home.

And if you the EU has set up a fair society with progressive regulations you're an even bigger mug.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: We all know what happened

all brexiteers aren't racist but all racists are brexiteers.

No. Huge swathes of the Asian population voted remain. And you have no idea of the racism they rejoice in.

The koran is 80% hate speech, says one ex-muslim

Indias new goverment is profoundly anti-pakistan and anti-islam.

Sikh-pakistan gang rivalries are common on our streets.

You may have been conditioned to see racism as the property of the unsophisticated white lower classes. Don't be fooled. The unsophisticated brown lower classes are ten times worse...

Just look at the middle east! Its it a Peaceful Utopia? Hell no. Its seething along racial and religious fault lines, Communities that have been peaceful (if repressed) are now on the boil, and bringing their ethnic conflicts with them as they flee their homelands.

Why is xenophobia so common?

Could it be, that deep down in our subconscious, we know it makes sense? That the strange tribe is more likley to trespass on our property and mores, simply because it sees us as strangers, and has no loyalty towards us?

In this place, we reckon ourselves to be intelligent rational human beings. So lets start behaving like ones, instead of opening pre packaged microwavable instant 'all racists are brexiteers' knee jerk comments.

The world is not that simple, and all the easy problems were solved thousands of years ago. What we have left are the really hard problems, and there are two right stinkers in play right now.

One is summarised by Quis custodies ipsos custodiet? - How do we keep people we have appointed as public servants, from trying to initially rule us, and finally exploit us? The Iron Law of Oligarchy says that they inevitably will. Our only defence is democracy, and perhaps once in a lifetime, it really matters.

The second problem is the scarce resource problem : In general if there is enough of everything an entity needs to grow, it will grow. If it runs out of something vital, it cannot grow. Humanity has experienced dramatic and explosive growth, because it was short of one thing - energy - and the industrial revolution harnessed first coal, then oil, to allow it to reach new levels of population. That growth has, in the West largely halted for the last decade and a half. WE have run or are running out of something.

The politics and economics of expansion are well understood. Why not be nice to strangers. There's plenty of room and an extra pair of hands is always welcome. The politics of contraction are not so nice. Faced with an inability to bake a bigger cake, the game is zero sum. People end up fighting over crumbs.

Simple liberal ideology says we should divide the cake equally (but somehow we seem to be dividing it less equally the more 'liberal ideology' is in play,. and its the liberal ideologues who seem to get most of it), but is this, in the end, a successful strategy?

Which is more likely to survive? A society that has at least some well fed, well educated and healthy people, or a society where everyone is uniformly embroiled in poverty, ignorance and disease?

IN 6 decades I have watched adherence to these liberal ideals, transform the country where I live from one which had a privileged core of people who were better off in every sense and better able to manage its affairs, to one of almost uniform mediocrity. IN which almost no one is capable of managing its affairs, which seems to me why they are content to let Brussels do it for them.

And if you think I am arguing for am elite, damned right I am. What do you think we have now? When Diane Abbott, social justice warrior and one time Corbyn squeeze, gets to send her kids to a private school? The iron law of oligarchy says there will always be an elite, so stop believing there shouldn’t be one.

That is not the real problem. The real problem is in a time of diminishing expansion and scarce resources, what sort of elite should we have and how should we control them?

Well it seems to me - YMMV - that what we need is an elite that has the best problems solving ability of all, a very broad range of experience and is bound by a code of honour - my gosh, what a very old fashioned idea - a code of honour that says 'you can have your power and your wealth and your privilege, but it comes with a price tag attached, and that's called noblesse oblige The sworn duty of the elite to protect their people, come what may, no matter how squalid and plebby you think they are, because there but for the grace of god, go you.

And if you think Jean Claude Drunker, has an ounce of honour anywhere in his alcohol pickled body, you are welcome to emigrate.

Brexit isn't about what you think it is. It is a deep subconscious reaction to modern events and modern life, and a deep sense of anger and betrayal of the people by elites who have no honour, who have broken the oldest social contract in the book, that says 'I will work for you, and support you, and let you have all the trappings of wealth and power and privilege, if you look after me'

And the elite have trampled all over that contract. Have taken the wealth and the power and te priviilege,. moved it offshore and to Brussels and left the people to rot.

And to add insult to injury, they have said 'and if you dont like it, there's millions worse off than you who would kill for a chance to have what you have'

And imported them, and they have killed.

Which raises the final point to question the received wisdom of politically correct virtue signalling Leftism.

Does charity begin elsewhere? Or should we put our own people before those of other nations?

Well you can think in whatever ideological and abstract moral terms you like, but if you put other nations citizens in front of your own, you can't expect a huge amount of support from your own can you?

In the end what is likely to count is which societies survive and prosper and which disintegrate. Societies bound together by strong ties who feel like one big family, and who strongly resist forces that tend to disintegrate them, that feature elites who have a sense of responsibility, rather than arrogance, will prosper.

My experience is that those who voted remain, all belong to a single urban class, who, by and large are doing all right, and think themselves to be pretty smart and educated. And who haven't seen their jobs taken by immigrants, or their schools overrun by people who dont speak English, or their factories closed because EU directives have made them unprofitable. Or just left to rot on the sink estates of the North, or had EU inspired gypsy camps or wind farms shoved next to their housing estates.

Of course you may think that these people are beneath contempt, bigoted racists, and don't matter.

Unfortunately, whilst they have been deprived of almost every other form of political power, someone made a mistake and left them a vote.

You who voted remain, you are the parvenus, the 'I'm all right Jack's' who have been upwardly mobile, arrived at affluence and been told that you are indeed mighty smart. YIu have been issues with yoiur liberal left progressive rule book, you idolised Tony Blair, and you think you are so clever, and classless and free...well remember the next line in the song

'You are all ***Ing peasants as far as I can see'. Because you have no honour, no noblesse oblige. Faced with Gillian Duffy, all you can do is dismiss the entire experience of her life, her political aspirations, her sincere worries and concerns with 'just some racist bigot'.

You are the privileged. You are about to learn the price of privilege. That if you do not take care of those less privileged than yourself, they will not support you. And that means respecting their experience, and listening to them, and sincerely trying to make their lives better.

THAT is the social contract that makes societies that prosper. Not some hand wavy airy fairy 'progressive' ideology that craps all over them because they aren't as smart and sophisticated as you are.

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Re: The thing that happened ...

> a democratic country had a democratic election

I think it would be better expressed as "a democratic country had a demagogic election", since campaigners on both sides were spouting nonsense to appeal to lowest-common-denominator voters.

It's been said before that "Democracy degenerates into demagogery" and this referendum farrago has been an excellent demonstration of that.

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Re: We all know what happened

I have been to Frankfurt and found it a very nice city with public transport, parks, culture, good infrastructure, including a major international airport.etc. Depending on how the break up actually develops I can easily see well paid financial experts happily moving there. As usual, the devil is in the details. My concern is I do not see any motivation for the EU to strike a friendly bargain for the UK out of concern it would only encourage similar exits from other countries.

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Re: We all know what happened

@ Terrance Brennan

"I do not see any motivation for the EU to strike a friendly bargain for the UK"

They want us out. Not now but yesterday. The EU is not popular. It is not seen as a great and amazing saviour. The EU is afraid (as it has been all along) that one out of the door shows the others the way. There is a queue to leave and the EU is desperate for us to go as quickly as possible. And we could easily do so, for the right terms.

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Anonymous Coward

Those who voted leave will probably find the things they thought they were concerned about won't change in any meaningful way and the things they should have been concerned about will change in a significant way and for the worse.

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Well I guess Farrage has done his work, he can now retire the UKIP, as they have met the solitary goal they had set, so a little silver lining as the pound drops like a stone and the stock market is whistling as it falls. I hope white van man enjoys the increase in the price of petrol they have voted for.

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They'll rebrand themselves as the people's party and press for an early General Election which I suspect they'll do quite well in.

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Might not be a bad thing, I don't think I'd want to be the party in power if the standard of living drops and interest rates go up, but who can tell

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Anyone remember..

Norsefire?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Anyone remember..

"a little silver lining as the pound drops like a stone"

If a country wanted to get back to manufacturing and increasing exports rather than relying on imports, isin't a lower valued pound a benefit?

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"They'll rebrand themselves as the people's party and press for an early General Election"

I'm not sure about that. I doubt many of the Leave campaigners had any plans beyond the referendum except "magic happens".

I'm not surprised, BTW, that the leading Leave Conservatives wrote to Cameron just before the event saying that he should stay on whatever happened. They belatedly realised they hadn't a clue what to do if they won & wanted someone to come along and look after them. Who do they have in their own ranks? IDS who has presided over the on-going car crash of Universal Credit? Gove who seems to have got up the nose of everyone working in the areas he's overseen as a minister? Boris, who was the great cheer-leader of the City that may currently be doing nicely (in the short term they can always make money) but are in for bleak times in the longer run? No wonder Boris is going round saying that they don't have to invoke Article 50 any time soon. Well, they and Farage have now got what they asked for and I doubt they're going to enjoy it for long.

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Re: Anyone remember..

"If a country wanted to get back to manufacturing and increasing exports rather than relying on imports, isin't[sic] a lower valued pound a benefit?"

It makes imports more expensive so it only operates on the value added in production and that benefit then has to outweigh the tariffs it faces.

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TRT
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Please...

Not Boris.

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Re: Please...

The only alternative is May (shudder) but at least she isn't Boris (the spider)

I'll second the statements about Trump, Le Pen etc.

This won't end well.

or to use a well known phrase

Were Doomed I tell ye, Doomed!

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TRT
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Re: Please...

He's making a relatively sensible statement at the moment. WHAT'S GOING ON??!!

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