A UK digital driving licence: What could possibly go wrong? Security vendors have welcomed plans to trial digital versions of the UK’s driving licence. The DVLA (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency) is working on a digital version of its driving license for smartphones, to serve as an "add-on" to the existing plastic card. DVLA chief Oliver Morley tweeted a snapshot of the prototype …
What exactly is this for? What problem does it solve?
If it's about producing your driving licence in relation to a motoring offence in the UK: the physical licence itself doesn't matter. It's your driver number, which looks up your entry in the database.
If it's about using the E-driving licence as some sort of digital proof of identity, to show to a bank, or the foreign authorities: then this is bonkers. Anyone can fake up a smartphone screen to make it look however they want.
The trouble is that a driving licence is a dual-use document, both a certificate of your entitlement to drive, and a certificate of your identity. The latter use only works at all if this is a physical card with security features which make it difficult to reproduce.
Presumably all that the government wants is to avoid the cost of printing a secure plastic card and mailing it out every 10 years (which we already pay £14-£17 for, by the way).
"...and a certificate of your identity. The latter use only works at all if this is a physical card with security features which make it difficult to reproduce."
The latter use only works at all if this is a physical card item with security features which make it difficult to reproduce.
Lothian Buses do M-Tickets on your SmartPhone - you activate a pre-paid ticket and show the screen to the driver. Sounds easy to "fake". But it's an image with moving elements making it impossible to screenshot. An active security feature is harder to fake, so there's no reason any digital document couldn't have similar features.
"Presumably all that the government wants is to avoid the cost of printing a secure plastic card and mailing it out every 10 years (which we already pay £14-£17 for, by the way)."
It cost me a fiver to replace my driving licence the last time I lost it. I got one of those horrible new pink paper ones instead of the nice green paper one I unfortunately lost. It's valid until about 2032 IIRC. No need to pay for an update every 10 years.
"Only valid unless you move house, then you have to return it and they will charge you for a crappy plastic one."
It's not actually clear from the gov website if it's free or not. It's free to get a replacement if you change your name or address but £17 if want to change the photo. I'd argue that changing my name or address but having to add a photo is not changing one so ought to be free ;-)
Are you trying to argue here that having the driving licence on a phone is now more vulnerable to theft and abuse than having it on a piece of plastic in your wallet? Surely the thief who stole your phone is just as likely to have stolen your wallet? Except of course the wallet isn't going to have prompted him with a PIN code to open. (a more realistic problem is that they could possibly have logged in to your account).
Maybe the image could have been faked, but there could be supporting systems that the shopkeeper has access to to validate it independently of your device (or piece of plastic). An app on their phone (or till system) could validate the details against the central DB using some form of (bar/QR)code.
"So you have a copy of your license on your smartphone, wow, except someone has nicked your phone and their mate who looks a bit like you is now flashing your ID when stopped by Police. That's going to come out well isn't it?"
The same smartphone that's probably full of malware, so not only is it sending off your 2FA codes for on-line banking to its new Russian masters, they've got a copy of one of your ID documents...
"Yes, Comerade Barclays, I am wanting £20,000 loan, £250,000 mortgage and £2,000 overdraft all at once".
We aren't talking confidentiality here, just integrity, so the data (picture and a few attributes) is 'secured' with a good 1970's digital signature which any fool can check is from DVLA. Small market for trusted checkers, but the data has to be available in a convenient form: read from NFC phone, your website, on a plastic card, a QRC tattoo (but please don't) or any other method of your choice, so that it can be offered to the checker.
(Likewise, power of attorney needs a pdf digitally signed by the OPG, not an online system of any sort.)
The DVLA policy in 2009 as presented on the No2ID threads was impeccable; presumably someone has quietly changed it.
"“People are living increasingly social lives..."
If by that he means that everyone is using Facebook, Twiiter and so on, then no. Not all of us have either a Facebook account or a smart 'phone and I for one don't want either. So in the future will I be left licensesless?
As for the plastic driving license, I have actually seen one though it was not mine. I only have a pink and green paper job that I got for free and have never had to pay to renew it.
"As for the plastic driving license, I have actually seen one though it was not mine. I only have a pink and green paper job that I got for free and have never had to pay to renew it."
Wait. Once it next expires, they will charge, and it will be a plastic one.
The paper ones don't expire until you are 70; the neat 'charge for renewal' scam only came along with the photo ID element where an old photo may not match the new you.
Alas certain changes will trigger the plastic replacement merry-go-round. Here's the list from the DVLA website:
-------------------------------------------
You must get a new licence if:
* you change your address
* your licence has been defaced
* you change your name (you must apply by post using paper form D1 or D2)
* you’re getting a Driver Certificate of Professional Competence (CPC) driver qualification card (DQC)
If none of these apply and your paper licence is still valid, you don’t need to exchange it for a photocard version.
-------------------------------------------
I only have a pink and green paper job that I got for free and have never had to pay to renew it.
You know the paper licences are not longer valid don't you? (Since last year as I recall -- discovered after a snafu trying to hire a car...) -- you might want to check, if you still drive.
You know the paper licences are not longer valid don't you?
No, I don't. Because they are still valid.
What they are not is an acurate record of any endorsements you might have - that now needs to be looked up online, which might confuse car hire companies. But the licence is still valid.
Vic.
+1 from me, Nematoad. From what I've seen, people are living increasingly anti-social lives - ignoring the people imemdiately around them, indulging in trolling, consuming voyeurism as entertainment (rather than regarding it as a social evil)
Sure, it's nice to have easy contact with friends far away. But that's not a reason for folk to be ignorant to those immediately around them, which seems to be happening more and more.
Of course it is, or else they'd lose their existing cushie business of selling your personal information to anyone and everyone who wants it that happens to have a suitably large suitcase full of cash...
Just look up all the stories about their dealings with various parking companies, dodgy insurance dealers and other less shining examples of members of the motor trade.
As a technical type (electronics, electrics, electromechanical, mechanical, and now IT) for more years than I care to remember (and the offspring of an engineer who learned his trade when it meant something, not like currently where kids with maths qualifications can't do simple sums - or any 'working-out' at all apparently - and where those with English exam "passes" cannot spell, write or read properly and most can't even speak properly either - or did I miss the ruling where most vowels were replaced with "O"s and "T" dropped completely - wo'evor, prin'or, etc), I have lost count of the times some bright spark* comes up with a technical solution that fails miserably when there was a much simpler method of doing the same.
Still, I expect the people responsible for this brainwave will be the first to volunteer to have their licences converted and will trial the scheme for a reasonable time to prove it will work for the rest of us plebs. A good three or four years at least should do it...
* I write 'bright spark'. What I meant was the sort of thing that gets publications banned for prolonged and justified use of obscenities...
So, now that you've got your digital license on your mobe, when robby bobby pulls you over and asks to see your papers (comrade), you whip out your phone, unlock it so they can see it and hand it over so they can now scan everything in there before they hand it back to you with your new reward.
Wankers one and all.
Lots of different versions of android is totally untrue.
4.4, 5 and 6.
The reality is however that the version you have is mostly irrelevant, and Android Pay is tied to Google services, which is available to all 3 of those versions. Google also do security updates for those also.
So really no more fragmented than iOS.
When my step mother died, I had the choice of re-taxing the car or "SORN-ing" it. Neither of which I could do as I wasn't the owner.
After long calls with DVLA I was told to just forge a signature.
And then of course there's the scam where they make you pay an extra month's tax when you trade in your car.
DVLA - wouldn't trust them to get the time of day right.
After long calls with DVLA I was told to just forge a signature.
Long before SORN, I went in to a DVLA office to pay the back-tax on a car I had that hadn't been taxed for over a year.
They wanted my reference number from the Police. I didn't have one.
The (rather condescending) clerk then explained to me that I would have been gevin a reference number when the Police caught me without road tax, and that was what they wanted.
I then explained that I hadn't been caught, and simply wanted to pay the back tax because it was the right thing to do, and I didn't want to get caught.
They had absolutely no idea what to do with this situation.
In the end, a senior manager had to be brought out to deal with me, and we thrashed out a mutually acceptable solution. But the comedy value was enormous...
Vic.
Mine's still hanging together - just.
Same here. DVLA can fuck with their poxy half baked plastic ID cards. I think I'm going to have to use some tape on the folds to stop it becoming big confetti. Anybody thinking about doing this may want to choose Scotch Crystal Clear Tape which is specifically sold for long life document repairs.
I don't care what fuckwhittery Blunkett and chums might have got up to back in the day, a driving licence is a licence to drive. It is not an identity document. It asserts that you have passed your test and not been subsequently disqualified. It has nothing at all to say about who you are.
I've still got a pink paper one, not even a photograph on it, and it expires on my 70th birthday. I'll be keeping it until then, thanks all the same.
-A.
It is functionally accepted as one for low security confirmation as it has your name, address and photograph on it.
As for the electronic version, it is already part way here as the removal of the paper counterpart means you now need to supply a code for third party verification.
Interesting that converting to an electronic version will mean you need to carry a device that it is illegal to use while driving.
"Yes officer, here is my licence"
"Thank you sir, I note that your engine is still running therefore here is a ticket for using your phone whilst driving!"
"Thank you sir, I note that your engine is still running therefore here is a ticket for using your phone whilst driving!"
Oh don't be a tool.
For a start the first thing that the police do after pulling you over (and after a greeting of some description) is ask you to stop the engine.
Secondly - you would be carrying that device anyway whether it had your licence on it or not.
Thirdly - there is no (enforced) requirement for you to have your licence on you while you are driving, if they pull you and trust you to produce it you will be given a period of time to take it into a station.
Now, I think its important to note at this point that I disagree with the digital licence... I dont see a point to it but to start making out that its going to cause additional fines for using a phone whilst driving is ridiculous.
"For a start the first thing that the police do after pulling you over (and after a greeting of some description) is ask you to stop the engine."
No. The first thing a police officer will do is pull you out of the car. See my earlier post. He will see your crutches but the bollox in his head will cause him to punch his way through the door. Once he is through, he will set his dog upon you.
"Secondly - you would be carrying that device anyway whether it had your licence on it or not."
Que?
"Thirdly - there is no (enforced) requirement for you to have your licence on you while you are driving, if they pull you and trust you to produce it you will be given a period of time to take it into a station."
Stop quoting shit. Electronic checks - no need to pull. Result: everyone does 99mph. Accidents? Same as normal.
"Now, I think its important to note at this point that I disagree with the digital licence... I dont see a point to it but to start making out that its going to cause additional fines for using a phone whilst driving is ridiculous.""
Tax
"Thank you sir, I note that your engine is still running therefore here is a ticket for using your phone whilst driving!"
There was a local case of a district nurse fined for user her phone. She was parked up with the engine off but still classed as "in charge" of the vehicle. I can't remember the exact details. Maybe the ignition was still "live".
It was the local BBC news a year or two back, Look North for Tyne & Wear/Cumbria but my GoogleFu is failing me this evening.
I am so pleased to note that there are other old fuddy duddies reading the Reg who, like me have held on to their old paper licences. I still use mine here in Spain, the police and hire companies are quite happy when I produce it so I will keep it for the next 5 years until it expires, after which I may get a plstic one printed in Phu-ket!
I just can't wait to see how many screw ups there will be with multiple levels of ID authentification kept on smart phones including your digitised biometrics. And just as they were becoming less nickable because everyone had one, now it will be as good as nicking your wallet.
Usually, as soon as a technology becomes the norm for a given security use, someone will have found an enterprising way of cracking it and making it a source of ill gotten gains, this 'Security' won't be any different!
Don't think having an iPhone will save you because the FBI have difficulty getting into them, the FBI (in theory) won't drag you down a dark alley, nick your phone and beat the crap out of you if you don't tell them the pass code.
When my late father died, transferring the car registration into my name was hassle free. As was cancelling his drivers licence. Gold star.
When I wanted details of a car's registered owner (because they'd bumped mine and someone got their number), although slow (especially since I forgot to include a photo of my damage and they returned the application) but they provided it.
In fact, I don't think I've ever actually had a problem with them ... except oh yes, there was that time ...
My old Land Rover is still officially diesel even though it's now petrol - DIY engine change. They won't accept my notification without me going and paying someone to confirm the change, something which on principle I refuse to do. I don't actually care - I've notified them which is all the law requires, and their letters back prove that they have received such a notification.
"They won't accept my notification without me going and paying someone to confirm the change, something which on principle I refuse to do."
Assuming you use it on the road, won't the next MoT test demonstrate the engine chnage at no additional cost to you? Either that or it's going to give some wild emissions test readings based on the expected ones :-)
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