back to article US work visas for international tech talent? 'If Donald Trump is elected all bets are off'

Apart from marrying an American, the best known route for foreign techies wanting to (legally) share their expertise for a fee in the US is a work visa. But this route is overcrowded, increasingly expensive and, should Donald Trump become America’s 45th president, it'll likely slam shut for many hoping to work in Silicon …

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Meh

Civilization

I feel that if Trump is elected, that just staying out of big, nasty wars that could potentially destabilize the entire world is the primary concern.

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We are already there

Look into Irak, look into Afghanistan. We already have big nasty wars destabilizing the entire world.

It's hard to believe, but before US and Russian interventions decades ago, those countries used to be rather peacefull and free.

Fighting injustice with injustice is not a way to go, and using drones to bomb places is hard to be seen as something that is justified or even a "fair fight".

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Re: We are already there

It's hard to believe, but before British colonialism a century ago, those countries used to be rather peaceful and free.

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This post has been deleted by its author

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Re: We are already there

Didn't the Taliban of Afghanistan commit acts of atrocity BEFORE we came storming in, though?

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Re: We are already there

"Didn't the Taliban of Afghanistan commit acts of atrocity BEFORE we came storming in, though?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

"The Taliban movement traces its origin to the Pakistani-trained and US-sponsored mujahideen in northern Pakistan, a loosely linked confederation of Islamist militias fighting the Soviets during the Soviet–Afghan War."

You know history didn't start in 2001.

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Re: We are already there

Yeah, but that's a pretty loose thing there. Would you rather the soviets took over there in the 80's? The thing about the Cold War is that there's no real "good guy" here.

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Re: We are already there

Really? So the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war that resulted in a half million casualties and involved ballistic missile attacks on cities, the use of chemical weapons, and more than 500 attacks on neutral country ships is to be considered "relatively peaceful"?

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Re: We are already there

Uncle Sam was heavily involved in the Iraq Iran war. Trying to regain control of the region after the Iranian's disposed the Shah/puppet of Iran. Israel wasn't happy either as the revolutionaries shut off their supply of cheap Iranian oil. Of course Iraq’s Ba'ath party was in power as a result of an earlier destabilisation and overthrow effort supported by the CIA who later armed the Kurds to stop the drift of Iraq towards Russia. Cheney's - we know Saddam has WMD's because we have the receipts - is a reference to the involvement of the US through Iraq's post WW2 history.

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Re: We are already there

Again, dig deeper and you'll find that that war most likely was caused by someone US/USSR friendly coming to power being backed by said superpower... or if you dig deeper you will find things like the Sykes-Picot Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement causing territorial disputes, dividing cultures and forcing artificial borders.

History isn't "good vs evil". History is more complex. I do not believe violence is not a way to solve complex problems. You cannot bomb for justice.

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And I was just imagining that after Brexit the UK could form a migration mobility club with Canada, US, OZ, NZ, where we could all work/migrate with barely any restrictions so long as there's a proper job offer.

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Anonymous Coward

What's so special about the UK/US relationship to warrant "free" job migration between those two countries? Most Americans are not descendants of Brits. Upwards one quarter of the Swedish population migrated to the US in the late 19th century - early 20th century. Pretty much anyone in Sweden speaks decent English (easier to understand than some British English dialects me thinks).

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"And I was just imagining that after Brexit the UK could form a migration mobility club with Canada, US, OZ, NZ, where we could all work/migrate with barely any restrictions so long as there's a proper job offer."

We used to have that. It was called 'the British Empire'. Migration was so easy that it happened to loads of people who didn't even want to move.

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Wait... After brexit you want to let foreigners come over here and steal our jobs? ;)

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Anonymous Coward

with caveats

Wait... After brexit you want to let foreigners come over here and steal our jobs?

Only the the right type of foreigners..i.e the ones that look like us

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Quite. The 'special relationship' relationship may have existed once. In the last twenty years when I've been traveling to the US a lot, it is chimeric. Out of the EU, we'd be somewhere south of the EU, BRIC comes, and other Latino countries in terms of Specialness. I've had many non-US colleagues in the US, only a couple are British (and my company is based in the UK and NL)

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Trollface

“It's very bad for business, [..] unfair for our workers. We should end it.”

I think he's absolutely right.

Let America show what its educational system can do. Stop importing intelligence from abroad, use your own.

We'll see how well that goes.

P.S. : couldn't include a sarcasm tag large enough

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Re: “It's very bad for business, [..] unfair for our workers. We should end it.”

Pascal Monett noted:

Let America show what its educational system can do. Stop importing intelligence from abroad, use your own.

And therein lies the problem. PARTS of the American Educational system are outstanding (our "elite" tech schools, for instance).

The problem is, their output is limited. A good chunk of the REST of the system are utter and complete crap.

Case in point: a decade ago, I went back to get a Master's Degree in MIS (OK, I was checking off a box for HR so I could get promoted to the next level).

And I found two distinctly separate types of students.

The first were older students returning for grad work. Typically 30+, typically had nearly a decade, if not more, of "operational" experience in IT. And a surprising number of deployed soldiers (this was an online program). All were professional and competent in basic skills, and whatever their current specialty was. . .

The second, were people who had just gotten their undergrad degrees, and were continuing on to get a Masters. Not only did they lack tech skills, but could not write or argue coherently, and often could not even get basic grammar and spelling right, much less argue from evidence.

I remember, in particular, one student whose argument was that she FELT that her proposition was correct, and therefore we had to accept her statement at face value, despite a plethora of evidence pointing in another, almost completely opposite, direction. . .

I also see a lack of basic skills across the board in entry-level hires at work. . . but they have GREAT self-esteem.

And then I see SOME (ok, a few) of the H1b hires. Solid talent, solid skills. Just wish we had more American candidates like them. . .

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Re: “It's very bad for business, [..] unfair for our workers. We should end it.”

"And then I see SOME (ok, a few) of the H1b hires. Solid talent, solid skills. Just wish we had more American candidates like them. . "

For years I thought about getting a job in the US, just needed to convince my wife (who isn't overly fond of the stereotyped American personae).

Since the introduction of all the security theater at the airports I haven't even wanted to go there for a holiday, let alone to work (I even had plans for a West-East bike trip prepared).

There are still lots of things I would like to see and do in America, but the negative side of things keeps me from making any solid plans in that direction and I don't see that changing any time soon :(

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"We'll see how well that goes"

I believe you're using the Internet. That's an American invention. (Yes, a Brit in Switzerland put the web layer on top of it, but the Internet was developed by the US DOD.)

Modern electronics rely on the transistor. Cell phones would look pretty funny if they had to use vacuum tubes

How many Brits have walked on the moon?

And then there's the inflatable tank, which helped the US save Europe's ass again in WWII, because Europeans can't even write a treaty that doesn't guarantee another war. (Hint: not enough arable land in Germany to support population, Treaty of Versailles banned most factories over the US' objections.)

Apple computers. IBM computers. UNIX. C. Windows. Total Quality Management. GPS (another DOD project.) FAX (in 1925!) Solar cells. Digital networks.

Cardiac pacemakers. Glucose meters.

And if American companies are stopped from bringing in foreign workers under false pretenses to drop wages, you'll see a lot more of this.

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Re: "We'll see how well that goes"

Modern electronics rely on the transistor.

If it wasn't for Paul Dirac, no-one would have known that such things were possible.

which helped the US save Europe's ass again

Ah, the US. Twice late to the game. Remind me why that was.

Apple computers. IBM computers. UNIX. C. Windows. Total Quality Management. GPS (another DOD project.) FAX (in 1925!) Solar cells. Digital networks.

Telephone. Radio. Film cameras. Television. And most of the underlying theories which allowed the development of technologies based on electromagnetism.

See? Two can play that game.

And if American companies are stopped from bringing in foreign workers under false pretenses to drop wages, you'll see a lot more of this.

If that were so certain, you'd imagine the big tech companies would already have stopped hiring foreign workers and let the likes of Liberty U take up the slack...

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Re: "We'll see how well that goes"

"And then there's the inflatable tank, which helped the US save Europe's ass again in WWII"

Do you, here, mean DD (Duplex Drive) tanks?

They were a British invention... (Fussy: the inventor was Hungarian, living and working in Britain.)

Yes, the most successful DD tank was the Sherman - it was able to keep its gun pointing forward with the floatation screen up, while the British Valentine could not - but the DD system wasn't American in origin.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "We'll see how well that goes"

@steward

"I believe you're using the Internet. That's an American invention."

However it does somewhat rely on Computers, which are a British invention.

"Cell phones would look pretty funny if they had to use vacuum tubes"

Phones wouldn't exist at all if it wasn't for Alexander Graham Bell (Scotland)

"How many Brits have walked on the moon"

<conspiricy>Same as US. None. :)</conspiricy>

Im going to skip the rest and pull out the trump (Pardon the pun) card.

If it wasn't for the UK the majority of Americans would be speaking Portuguese/Spanish right now.

I love that any conversation that casts the US in any kind of bad light turns into this massive willy waving contest over who has the best inventions and industry (Ill give you a clue - at the moment its not the US or UK - its somewhere distinctly more Asian)

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Re: “It's very bad for business, [..] unfair for our workers. We should end it.”

Bummer.. I did the West-East bike trip when I got out of the USAF back in '95. Would love to do it again, but I would also love to come visit the UK, as I never had the chance when I was station in Italy.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "We'll see how well that goes"

@Steward

Did you just use Apple computers in a post arguing that the US should stop bringing in foreign workers?

Because Wozniak is such an all American name?

Or maybe its because you didn't realise that Steve jobs father was a Syrian immigrant to the US?

Not to mention that most of the innovations that you listed are just additions to existing tech that the US didn't invent,

Internet : Computers (UK - Charles Babbage - Tommy Flowers - Alan Turing)

Cell Phones : Actual Phones (Alexander Graham Bell - Debatable but the other guy was Italian not from the US so the argument is moot anyway)

Apollo program - Lots of German scientists shipped after the war.

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Re: "We'll see how well that goes"

"I believe you're using the Internet. That's an American invention."

Not really. It relies on digital packet-switched networks, which were pioneered by British/French engineers, since the American who had the idea couldn't get anyone interested. It was only after the UK MOD prototyped it that ARPA decided it was worth using.

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Re: “It's very bad for business, [..] unfair for our workers. We should end it.”

Right, but in the U.S. instead of educating kids in STEM and giving them critical thinking skills we are worried about them being conversant in which bathroom a confused 11 year old should use and recruiting a bunch of barely educated fools into SJW fantasy leagues.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: “It's very bad for business, [..] unfair for our workers. We should end it.”

@Sporkinum, thanks for a positive comment.

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@AC - "computers are a British invention"

That's debatable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atanasoff%E2%80%93Berry_computer

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Re: "We'll see how well that goes"

"If it wasn't for the UK the majority of Americans would be speaking Portuguese/Spanish right now."

Now, now, play fair. At least a third, probably half, of North Americans would be speaking French or Russian.

Alaska, Louisiana territories, Quebec, anyone?

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Re: “It's very bad for business, [..] unfair for our workers. We should end it.”

Agree, also, having to pay $170 to apply for a visa without a refund if you get denied because they reached the daily quota of issued visas. I would rather go somewhere else.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: “It's very bad for business, [..] unfair for our workers. We should end it.”

Right, but in the U.S. instead of educating kids in STEM and giving them critical thinking skills we are teaching creationism and legalizing religious hatred.

FTFY

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @AC - "computers are a British invention"

This is not debatable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Zuse

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Re: “It's very bad for business, [..] unfair for our workers. We should end it.”

No worries! There are more than 1 million foreign students attending US universities. I'm sure they can enlighten the US professors.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: “It's very bad for business, [..] unfair for our workers. We should end it.”

Most of the US professors are foreigners too, go figure.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "We'll see how well that goes"

"Yes, the most successful DD tank was the Sherman"

But on D-Day the American Navy panicked and released much too far from shore so many of them sank, while the RN looked at the conditions and decided to go right in. The US weakness is to rely too much on technology while not paying attention to the human side, which is how they manage to have a heavily armed police force that kills hundreds of people every year (exact numbers unknown but > 450) while we have a much less armed police force that manages to arrest people while hardly shooting anybody.

You could argue that it's this failure to pay proper attention to the education and training of the non-élites that has resulted in the H1B issue. There's enough Americans that a decent State educational system would make the US an exporter, not an importer, of talent.

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Re: @AC - "computers are a British invention"

"computers are a British invention.

That's debatable

Two words.

Charles

Babbage.

Thank you and good night.

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Re: "We'll see how well that goes"

Fax - May 27, 1843 (sorry, electric printing telegraph). Alexander Bain, Scotland,

Scanning phototelegraph, Bidwell, 1881.

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Trollface

All bets are off

All bets are off with Trump as we don't know anything about his "ideas and plans" because he doesn't know either. His show for the election will change, and has already started to change.

I would advice Americans to listen to Dr. Michio Kaku:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7D3_eGaO5k

The problem the US has created is internal not external and some Americans find that disgusting to accept, rather blame everybody else. There is no short time solution to education, but to get educated people from abroad. This is not to say that there is no abuse of the system by the Corporations. And of course the (almost) whole country was made by immigrants.

The Trump icon for as short a time as possible.

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Re: All bets are off

Th U.S. of today reminds me of an old missive about Spain when it was an empire. Spain had pretty much stopped making things by that time and was importing almost everything and trade/market speculation was the biggest industry of the day. The main point being that it was said Spain used to BRAG that they no longer made things and didn't have to.

We know how that worked out.

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Re: All bets are off

Not sure I see the comparison. While the US is indeed the largest importer, it is also the third largest exporter behind China and the EU, and that is lumping the EU nations together, else it would be the second largest exporter.

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Re: All bets are off

But - we do know that Hillary is both a war-monger, a crook and cannot be bothered to take the advice of the best expertise available (which is what email-gate shows). This means that Hillary will hire hacks and sycophants as advisor's, which then means that more disasters will flow.

When one is in the shit, then, that is the time to buy risk rather than "the safer option" or "business as usual" - you know, more of what it was that got us into the mess. It is rational that "all bets are off" .

Trump is being smart with his "ideas and plans", first, it's like talking to lawyers: Any word added to "the contract" is another opening for an attack by the oppositions legal team, and, being an experienced CEO Trump know that the future is unpredictable and it generally does not make sense for "the strategic level" to produce those detailed plans and clear directives that the bean-counters at the operational levels insist on.

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Surely an auction is better?

Getting a H1B could be dependent on the amount of tax that you pay which would make the cheap foreign labour calculation more complicated.

Disclaimer: I turned down the offer of relocating to Detroit for piss-poor pay when my UK R&D site was closed.

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Don't get hung up on geography

Working for Silicon Valley doesn't require any kind of visa for anyone.

Just regular broadband.

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1. the power to make/change visa law lies with congress.

2. trump hires h1bs and h2bs instead of Americans.

3. fortunately, trump will never be POTUS.

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Anonymous Coward

"fortunately, trump will never be POTUS."

Suppose Trump waits until a few weeks before the election then drops an evidence bombshell that assures Clinton gets convicted of a felony, disqualifying her from the post?

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What if the backlashes against both Trump and Hillary pushes Sanders into the White House?

Slim chance that, but the probability is there.

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So much B.S. flying around regarding that... Not going to happen!

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Blowhard can not drop the bombshell that convicts Hildabeast. He is not POTUS nor does he have any access to the information the ferals have that would destroy her politically. The mostly likely non-feral source of such a bombshell would be from the Russians or Chinese if either publish the emails from Hildabeast's email server. Contrary to her claims, I would be shocked if both did not have all her emails. If Hildabeast is indicted it would by current donkey administration deciding to make her toast for internal donkey reasons. They are not overly fond of Hildabeast and Bubba.

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Go

Go for Sanders

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