back to article Virgin Atlantic co-pilot dazzled by laser

A Virgin Atlantic flight from Heathrow to New York was forced to return to London yesterday after the co-pilot was dazzled by a laser. The flight crew of flight VS205 declared a "Pan-Pan" emergency* shortly after 8pm as the Airbus A340 passed over the west coast of Ireland. The aircraft, carrying 252 passengers and 15 crew, …

      1. Triggerfish

        Re: Wouldn't filters

        If you did that how restricted are the frequencies of the lasers are they not variabe enough you would end up effectively blocking a wide band?

  1. Anonymous Blowhard

    Amazing to think how few serious incidents there are when we have an over-abundance of morons and lasers are so cheap.

    Also amazing to think you can legally purchase on eBay a device which is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions.

    1. Graham Dawson Silver badge

      The protocol applies to lasers designed specifically as blinding weapons. These are laser pointers, not weapons; it's the same distinction as between a kitchen knife and a bayonet, or a nailgun and a pistol. Both can be used to cause harm but only one of each of the examples is designed for that purpose. The protocol doesn't apply to lasers which are designed to act as pointing devices. The wiki page even points out a number of military exceptions to the protocol.

      1. imanidiot Silver badge

        @Graham,

        I would hardly call an engraving laser a "pointer".

    2. Mark 85

      "Also amazing to think you can legally purchase on eBay a device which is prohibited "

      Most engraver/cutting lasers on eBay are of the non-visible spectrum type. They're invisible. Also, a sheet of Perspex will block the beam. There are engraver/cutting lasers that are visible and will cut right through acrylics or glass but those are rather pricey and non-portable.

      From the reports, these attacks are using visible spectrum lasers which will penetrate acrylics/glass. The key is visible spectrum.

  2. JonW
    Pirate

    Simple solution, me hearties.

    Pilots wear an eye patch below 2000 feet. That was the plan back when the RAF had a strike role - bucket of instant sunshine gets a bit bright and you dazzle yourself? Use other eye - simple.

    1. Trigonoceps occipitalis

      Re: Simple solution, me hearties.

      That would be "dazzle" as in blind.

    2. imanidiot Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Simple solution, me hearties.

      I'm sure the total lack of depth perception is going to be a great help too.

  3. Phil Endecott

    Technological solution

    Legislating about this is as likely to change anything as increasing the fine for littering.

    For once, a technological solution might be the most effective. Presumably the military must have some ideas; they must have worked out that dazzling your opponent with a laser was a good idea long ago, and worked out how to protect themselves against it.

    1. fnusnu

      Re: Technological solution

      Dropping a bomb on chavs might not go down well with the general population

      1. Commswonk

        Re: Technological solution

        Dropping a bomb on chavs might not go down well with the general population

        FTFY

      2. MrXavia
        Mushroom

        Re: Technological solution

        "Dropping a bomb on chavs might not go down well with the general population"

        I am not sure you'd get too many complaints...

    2. Commswonk

      Re: Technological solution

      Sorry about adjacent postings, but...

      For once, a technological solution might be the most effective. Presumably the military must have some ideas; they must have worked out that dazzling your opponent with a laser was a good idea long ago, and worked out how to protect themselves against it.

      I don't think your logic works. The military may have worked out some sort of measures but as has already been pointed out laser - based weapons do seem to be inconsistent with the Geneva Convention so the "protection" might just rely on that Convention. In addition, although the military don't really like taking casualties it is accepted that casualties will happen. I don't think that acceptance is open to civil aircraft operators, and I very much doubt if they would have many paying passengers if it was known that casualties (in the form of visually impaired pilots, and probably their passengers) were acceptable.

      Legislative changes are required as a matter of urgency to stop the spread of higher - powered lasers to those who have no demonstrable need for them, and to make selling, supplying, procuring, attempting to procure, owning, using, or attempting to use a high - powered laser without proper cause offences in their own right, rather than having to rely on "endangering an aircraft".

      Catching anyone misusing a laser must be hard enough (to the point of near impossibility) but to find someone in possession of one, and suspecting past or future misuse, but being unable to do anything about it because they weren't caught in flagrente dilecto would be a waste of police resources and leave the travelling (flying) public and the pilots at continuing risk.

      1. FrogsAndChips Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: Geneva Convention

        Relying on the Geneva Convention to define your protection measures is like saying you don't need an alarm system on your house because burglary is illegal.

      2. Mayhem

        Re: Technological solution

        The military solution is to take off with one eye blocked by a patch. If it gets dazzled, you swap to the other. More for nuclear strikes than lasers though.

        Also I like my pilots *with* depth perception on take off and landing.

        1. Richard Boyce

          Re: Technological solution

          "Also I like my pilots *with* depth perception on take off and landing."

          Two eyes a few inches apart don't add much depth perception when looking at the runway. At that distance, you're relying on other cues.

          1. RPF

            Re: Technological solution

            Actually depth perception is quite an important part of landing, especially in the later stages.

    3. TimeMaster T
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Technological solution

      A laser guided .50cal round would be better. Already developed and has a max range approaching 8 miles and a flight time of seconds. Of course there is always the risk that it would hit someone standing NEXT to the dip head with the laser. Though that would cut down on the likelihood people would hang out with idiots who get their jollies shooting lasers at planes.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Simple solution: rewards

    I'd offer proper rewards for catching such idiots, only paid out after successful prosecution to prevent every idiot with a flashlight being reported.

    Sure, it will initially cost some money, but I reckon it's probably going to take considerably less money than paying out after an airplane crashes because of this idiocy. Even the most abject fool will think twice if the risk gets too high, and if not they'll soon be caught by someone.

    Making the morons who do this stare into their own laser may prove educational but a couple of years in gaol with rumours that they are child abusers works for me too.

    As for banning lasers, think of the children cats..

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    How do you fire a laser into an upward facing plane at 8000ft? Surely you would have to be higher that the plane? I may be wrong, I'm sure someone will point out how this was technically possible because I can;t work it out.

    1. Lee D Silver badge

      Climb angles aren't that steep.

      Be in front of it. Or to the side of it.

      The pilots still have to be able to see, they don't have a pinhole camera, but a huge window.

      You don't need DIRECT light with a laser this powerful to cause damage. They are dazzling and the front of a shiny metal plane with glass tends to be... well, shiny. A pinpoint on the ground is a cabin-filling brightness in the air, still bright enough to dazzle.

      That's why these things are damn dangerous and shouldn't be in those people's hands anyway. You could blind someone with a tiny flash at ground level.

      1. Trigonoceps occipitalis

        During the Falklands War the UK deployed a laser dazzle weapon. It relied on the fact that an aircraft canopy/window would scatter the light and affect the pilots vision. There was no need, nor intention, to blind or dazzle the pilot by the beam directly entering the eye.

        1. Trigonoceps occipitalis

          Replying to my own post, I'll be up-voting me next.

          Thinking of the utility (as a non-pilot) of the dazzle weapon its intent is not to temporarily or permanently blind the pilot. If you are polling along at 300 knots over San Carlos Water Jolly Jack Tar is going to be throwing everything he has at you. (Including, according to one hearsay verbal report, a NAAFI pork pie.) Thus the pilot is going to be as low as he dares to avoid the more effective AA - Seacat etc. Dazzle him for even a short time and the instinctive reaction will be to pull up, exposing him to more effective fire. Equally, stick down would be a win for us.

          Perhaps Lester knows more?

    2. SImon Hobson Bronze badge

      If you are far enough ahead (or to the side), then you can shine into the front windows - in case you hadn't noticed, the cockpit windows are primarily for forward vision (with quite a bit of sideways vision) and they don't actually have that much upwards vision ;-) Even if you don't have direct line of sight to the pilot/co-pilot's eyes, you only need to get into any of the windows and you'll get reflections around the cockpit. From the side, you probably have a better bet at hitting a crew member.

      As for aiming, well to start with you have an aiming device built in since in most atmospheric conditions you'll get a line of light visible from all the water droplets and dirt particles scattering the light. A bit like tracer rounds but travelling at the speed of light ! You only need a momentary hit to cause problems.

      But as mentioned, the problem is catching the b'stards. Apart from the clueless f**kwit who decided to shine one at a Police helicopter with high quality video recording, most are unlikely to be caught other than by chance. Short of equipping all aircraft with high-res video cameras, I can't see any easy way round that fundamental problem.

      Offering rewards is unlikely to be any good - all the accused has to say is they didn't shine it at an aircraft and they are off the charge. No evidence, no conviction. I doubt if many people are that disliked that multiple (enough to convince a judge) of their "mates" will stand up in court and testify that they did in fact laser an aircraft !

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Presumably the easiest way to score a conviction will be to show the jury the you tube video they post up marked 'me and me mates shinning a lit at a plain, lol'.

        But maybe this is a time for a return to the Q-ship concept - fly a plane or two around at night with those high res cameras, and have a ground crew ready to pounce, follow it up with a deterrent style sentence, and sue the importer while you are about it.

        Even better, borrow a few Ospreys, and get the marines ready to abseil down ropes - I'd love to see their faces when the plane they shone the light at spins around and heads straight for them.

      2. Alan Brown Silver badge

        "Apart from the clueless f**kwit who decided to shine one at a Police helicopter with high quality video recording, most are unlikely to be caught other than by chance."

        They regularly get away with lasing the police choppers.

        All you need to do is stand outside a pub. When helicoptor comes over, step inside and blend in.

        The local "sports bar" CCTV system has outside cameras but they're always on the blink when the cops want to use them to see who was lazing aircraft.

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          The local "sports bar" CCTV system has outside cameras but they're always on the blink when the cops want to use them to see who was lazing aircraft.

          Sounds like a good way to ensure their drinks licence isn't renewed next time.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            "Sounds like a good way to ensure their drinks licence isn't renewed next time."

            And very frequent visits to check licensing conditions are being complied with before the renewal.

          2. Alan Brown Silver badge

            You'd think so, but they somehow managed to retain their license after multiple busts for serving underage drinkers (one was 15)

            The neighbours have been complaining about the place for years but I suspect the cops want all the local villains in one place.

        2. Sub 20 Pilot

          In that case get the police to bust the place once a week every week at their busiest time and make life difficult for the useless cunts running the place who are happy to aid and abet this by refusing to pass the CCTV over. Play the fuckers at their own game, that is the only way to deal with morons who know their rights but no idea of their responsibilities.

    3. RPF

      You can see down from the cockpit (and therefore v.v.).

  6. Velv
    Joke

    The Military solved this problem a long time ago - launch a missile at anything that targets you...

  7. Nifty Silver badge

    Deterrents and protection are possible

    Since there can be a strong terrorist angle on this, I'm expecting the following development:

    - A laser detection kit, attaches to underside of plane, has GPS. Instantly sends ground coords of incoming laser to the local police. Probably exists already in some military form, just the airlines don't want to afford it. So I don't agree with commswonk above "Catching anyone misusing a laser must be hard enough (to the point of near impossibility)"

    - LCD technology built into planes windscreen, to black out when laser is detected by the item above. It can receive a signal and black out all frequencies like a welding helmet does until the laser disappears.

    This protects the pilots so they can resume full control for the rest of the flight. A clear windscreen with a laser shining into it is no more use than a blacked out one.

    You can even buy the technology on Amazon - "Filter will turn from clear to dark state, response time is less than 1/30000S".

    Passengers will be much happier when they know their airline has adopted these things, remember, some airlines had an early policy of not flying over Ukraine, others didn't.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    How high?

    "targeted...while at an altitude of 8,000ft"

    That seems to be some pretty fancy shooting.

    An aircraft is a mile and a half up in the air, it's probably climbing to its assigned flight level (ie, pointing in an upwards direction) and moving at, what, 2-300 knots ground speed - and it's hit by a narrow beam of intense light coming from the ground.

    That doesn't sound to me like the work of your average slack-jawed scrote playing with his new toy.

    1. Mayhem

      Re: How high?

      A Wicked Laser Arctic Spyder 3 has a power of over 2W, and a direct range of some 30 miles before it isn't obviously visible. 8000ft is only 1.5 miles, with a bit of dust in the air to aim your beam, it is literally child's play to point it at the plane. Point your finger at a moving plane, you can easily follow it, they don't move that fast at low level. Painting the cockpit directly is luck more than anything else, with a window being a smaller target still, but aim at every flight out of Heathrow on a clear winter night and your odds go up substantially. The scrotes are probably aiming for the tail and hitting the other end from jitter from their arm.

      Heck, I can think of half a dozen simple ways to stabilise the beam off the top of my head, and mounting some binoculars alongside it so you can see the light sparkle off the plane better is easy enough.

    2. John Bailey

      Re: How high?

      "That doesn't sound to me like the work of your average slack-jawed scrote playing with his new toy."

      Really?

      Cos it sounds to me exactly like some slack-jawed scrote waving the thing about in the general direction of a plane, and getting lucky.

      The laser only needs to hit for a fraction of a second. It doesn't need to be trained on something specific. Do it often enough and a "hit" is inevitable.

    3. MD Rackham

      Re: How high?

      I can easily hit the power lines 2+ miles from my house using a 500mW green laser pointer held in my hand.

      I've never tried hitting a plane because I've mastered the whole actions/consequences thing, plus they are already at about 15,000' by the time they're over my house.

      As others have pointed out, the atmospheric backscatter makes the beam easily visible. Which is why it works so well as a star pointer, the reason I bought it in the first place. (Although I suppose some Jovian pilot may have complained when I pointed out the planet to my wife the other night.)

  9. Adam 52 Silver badge

    It'll be interesting to see some proper analysis of this when the AAIB report comes out.

    Turning back because the copilot felt a unwell is all well and good. Is there any evidence this was related to the laser pointer or was it the dodgy curry he had the night before? And this magic illness is undetectable to medical science?

    I've got an eye condition that makes me particularly sensitive to bright lights but I don't become incapable at a short flash.

    BALPA calling for a ban on the basis of no evidence whatsoever is silly, just as we all said when Australia implemented their ban, but BALPA seem to be in a ban everything campaign at the moment.

    1. Darryl

      I've got a similar eye condition - makes driving at night with oncoming headlights a real pain. However, it's nothing compared to getting a blast from a laser in your eye. Even a cheap laser pointer can damage the retina.

    2. Sub 20 Pilot

      And when some turd does manage to bring down a plane a lot of people will be running around asking why did they not do anything...

  10. Will 20

    Have some laser detection gear, and fire a more powerful laser right back - probably enough to discourage any more tagging...

  11. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Dont we

    have things called 2000lb paveways that can target the source of the laser illumination even after its been turned off?......

    Failing that, we can always define the act of blinding pilots as an act of terrorism, and get the little chavs a trip to Cuba, water sport.. sorry boarding included.

  12. Fazal Majid

    Cars?

    Given how some hooligans delight in dropping cinder blocks onto traffic from an overpass or pedestrian bridge, I am surprised this isn't done more frequently to cars.

    These offenses should be treated as attempted murder. There was a guy in California who was caught and sentenced to a stiff sentence, 14 years IIRC, but that was later reduced to a mere 5 years by a bleeding heart judge.

    1. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Cars?

      "Given how some hooligans delight in dropping cinder blocks onto traffic from an overpass or pedestrian bridge, I am surprised this isn't done more frequently to cars."

      It is. It's less reported on than lasing aircraft, but having been lazed with a high-powered device (it fucking hurts) and having seen a driver in front of me swerve violently when lazed, it's even more likely to cause mayhem than lazing an aircraft.

      1. Adam 52 Silver badge

        Re: Cars?

        It's a lot easier to catch someone on "the bridge over the M25 just after jn 14" than "on the ground somewhere west of Slough"

        1. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: Cars?

          I wish it was easier.

          By the time the cops show up, the scrotes are long-gone. As mentioned earlier if the police helicopter shows up, they dunk into the nearest pub when they get bored of painting it.

          They _know_ to the minute how long it takes the police to arrive after a 999 call and will simply melt away a minute or so before the cars show up.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    FFS, pilots, just wear the effing glasses, nobody is going to point at you and laugh at you (except the knob with the laser and he can't see your face)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The flight computer's doing the takeoff and landings anyway.

      1. RPF

        You sound just like the moron with the laser. You're just as wrong.

      2. Sub 20 Pilot

        Why not get a fucking clue what you are talking about and post under your own name if you are going to make such statements. Moron.

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