back to article NSA in new SHOCK 'can see public data' SCANDAL!

In the latest round of increasingly-hyperbolic leaks about what spy agencies are doing with data, reports are emerging that the NSA has been graphing connections between American individuals. Moreover, it's using stuff that people publish on their social media timelines to help the case along. According to this item in the New …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    News?

    What news? That 'governments' and their agents are corrupt is no news to anyone that has been paying any attention at all or at least should not be. The American Experiment in Law and Government that came into existence in 1787 is and has been failing for years.

    Some of those that were participants in the formation of it felt that the average American was incapable of self governance (See Hamilton and his reference to them as beasts.). They understood that the majority did not have the education or understanding of the fundamental laws necessary to keep those they placed in positions of 'trust' in check and accountable to them. This combined with apathy (seemingly no interest in learning the necessities) has lead to the position we are in today wherein our 'servants have appointed themselves our masters' while drawing on the system of laws.

    Our 'Public Servant Masters' are not accountable to us and have created laws that protect them, as well as, many other institutions (Big Business) created under the authority of our system of laws. The 'new morality' seems to be that the bottom line (Showing record profits) always justifies the means no matter how damaging it may be to the majority of People. This seems to be the case all through government starting with City Halls and emanating up through the international levels today. It seems to fit the 'modern day business practices' as well.

  2. JTOMM129

    Oh no Mr. Bill!!! It's Benghazi all over again! (And again, and again . . . )

    1. Bloakey1

      Yep. UK.Misc?

      Howver with all this data it will become a bugger to mine.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Revelations ??? Really ?

    I am astounded by both this article and the comments. An analogy of this diatribe is it’s a bit like storing your pet goldfish in a tank of hungry piranhas and then running around going OMG OMG the bastards ate my fish.

    So what you peoples are saying is:

    ‘I am horrified that when I post in a public forum people I don’t know might read it’?

    ‘or worse organisations whose raison d’etre are reading it’?

    When you sign up for Facebook and Twitter you agree to all sorts of people using your data. What is your problem? Piranhas eat goldfish (*1) , marketing and intelligence organisations ‘eat’ data, if you hand them goldfish on a plate, surprise, surprise they think dinner is served?

    (*1) At least the Hollywood portrayals of Piranhas, I admit to no personal knowledge of piranha’s dietary behaviour. But as a plus I can assure any vegans out there that neither goldfish, nor piranhas were harmed during the posting of this comment.

    1. dan1980

      Re: Revelations ??? Really ?

      For me, Drbig above nails it.

      Facebook walls and twitter feeds might be considered public information but by that logic, so is the brand of shoes you wear, what train you catch in the morning, what you eat for lunch and how you have your coffee. So to are any words you exchange with a loved one in a public place or the groceries you pickup on the way home.

      All that is public information but I doubt I am the only one who would much rather that information not be collected, collated and cross-referenced.

      As Drbig said, this collection of every scrap of public information about a person is like being followed by someone all day, everyday, seeing them across the aisle from you on the bus or walking 2 steps behind you in the grocery store, diligently marking down every item you put in your basket. Well, he didn't go to that detail but the point is that that is all technically public information and, by your logic, we should feel no outrage at all were a government agent to follow us around night and day recording every thing we do and every interaction we have.

      I can only speak for myself but I suspect that it's not just me that nevertheless feels very much outraged at this level of surveillance.

      The problem is that privacy laws have not kept pace with technology. In time gone by there was a certain amount of physical resources required to map out the life of a person. This naturally limited how much data could be gathered on any one person and also, how many people could be subject to such intrusive monitoring at any one time.

      Now, that barrier is removed.

      This is an IT site and one of the perennial questions is what exactly IS 'Big Data'. Well, for me, big data signifies the point where the breadth of data collected causes new information to appear.

      A great article I once read showed one of the first successful attempts with 'big data'. As I recall, it was at Target (or similar) and the system worked well. Too well in fact. In the end, I understand a big wakeup call was when a father of a young girl came into the store demanding to see the manager. He was upset that his daughter had been receiving coupons and special offers in the mail related to maternity wear - this despite the fact that she was clearly not pregnant.

      It turned out that the young girl was, in fact, pregnant. What was proven was that through collection of enough publicly-available information, you can infer some very private details - details that people might not wish to share and did not explicitly make 'public'.

      The store had never met the girl nor even seen her. Even if they had, it would have done no good as she was not showing yet. Her own father, whom she lived with, had not yet realised she was pregnant and yet a store down the street, relying on nothing more than a collection of data points, had correctly deduced that this young lady was carrying a child.

      There is a big difference between reading someone's twitter feed and sifting every tweet, forum post, youtube comment, product review and Facebook update that person has ever written and cross-referencing the output with similar results from their family, their colleagues, their neighbours and indeed everyone they know and a great many people they don't.

      That's before you even start to merge that data with the information that is not normally publicly accessible - phone records and e-mail history and so on.

      So no, it's not an irrational fear of our peers reading our ramblings; it's a completely justified concern - and even outrage - that government agencies are compiling every word we write and every action we take into searchable profiles that reveal things about us that even our closest confidants don't know.

      I decided not to spellcheck this because I am really tired. Sorry if the rant got away from me (more than normal).

      1. Don Jefe

        Re: Revelations ??? Really ?

        Prior to the PATRIOT Act it was illegal for most US government agencies to share data amongst themselves precisely because of privacy concerns and the possibilities for future misuse of that data. There were inefficiencies built into the system as a safeguard.

        Out of fear, those prohibitions have been removed and the intentionally bureaucratic quagmire of paperwork largely done away with. Thing is it costs more now that inefficiencies have been removed and interagency data sharing is now possible. More money, still doesn't stop terror attacks and liberties have been eliminated.

        Not One Single Part of the post 9/11 anti-terror strategy has provided increased protections over what was already in place. It all needs to stop and be assessed, it isn't working.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @dan1980

          The point I am making is that there is little point getting outraged about something you signed up for and get for free. That is if you sign up for either Facebook Twitter or a Tesco Club card you are agreeing to people collecting and processing your information.

          The pregnant girl point you make above sounds far more like a Tesco club card than either of Facebook or Twitter but that said it is valid. When you get the thing you agree to them collecting your data. Surely you shouldn’t be too surprised when they do just that and get it right?

          I understand your concern about government agencies but personally don’t think they are likely to collate every word as you write and say. There are a few reasons for my thoughts:

          • I seriously don’t think they would be motivated to do so, most do acknowledge the existence of the DPA and HRA

          • They couldn’t afford the disk

          • Also probably not competent enough to collect the data in the first place

          I hope the train journey home is a little better than this morning?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Stop

            @Don Jefe

            The machinations of the US government, the PATRIOT act and associated privacy concerns due to departmental data sharing are very much a matter of indifference. At the end of the day they are a foreign power, and will collect what data they can from me how they may.

            I was intrigued by the support offered to the recently organised EFF protests. If you read the small print carefully the only people who benefited were Americans. Now then I don’t have anything against Americans, but without appearing too unsympathetic how about you chaps fight your own protests on the Internet? They are your liberties not mine for which you are fighting.

            1. Don Jefe

              Re: @Don Jefe

              I agree with you. We shouldn't be spying on any private citizens without just cause, no government should. Governments spying on each other, that doesn't bother me. That has always been done and will always be done as long as any two governments both have commercial interests in the same places.

              But spying on private citizens of any nation is wrong. It is doubly wrong coming from a government who has justified every large scale military action since the 1950's as some sort of 'principled mission of great calling'.

              You can't be the standard bearer for high minded principals if you don't follow those principals yourself. Follow them at all times, through the good and the bad, otherwise they aren't principals, they're just so many words and we are weaker for not living up to them.

          2. dan1980

            @Titus

            @Titus

            I believe it was a loyalty card but the point I was (poorly) trying to make was that the data collected allowed the company to infer details about someone's private life and that company actively pursued those deeper connections and used them.

            The information willingly shared was "I want to buy unscented cocoa butter and vitamin supplements"; the information distilled was: "customer is 8 weeks pregnant".

            The important factor here is that the information was not deduced from the shopping habits of that one person; even taking the data from the whole store, they wouldn't have been able to reliably make these connections. It was only by pulling in data from hundreds of thousands of customers across dozens of stores that the patterns started to emerge and people started having their private lives laid bare through nothing more than shopping history.

            In other words, the shopping history of one person tells you what they buy; the shopping history of a million people, collated and cross-referenced, tells you who they are.

            It is disturbing enough when retailers start processing this data - one with an affiliated insurance arm found that people who buy carrots (or whatever) have fewer accidents - but what the NSA is doing is on a truly unprecedented scale.

            Train was quiet enough to get some work done, thanks : )

            1. dan1980

              . . . cont

              Just to be clear, my point is not that the NSA is collecting information from loyalty programs (though they likely are as retailers on-sell a good measure of that data). I am simply using that example to illustrate how collecting a lot of data allows different kinds of connections to be made and can turn simple data into a quite revealing window that many people feel uneasy about the government looking in through.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Revelations ??? Really ?

          @ Don Jefe - Prior to the PATRIOT Act it was illegal for most US government agencies to share data amongst themselves...

          Prior to the PATRIOT Act, I believed in goblins and fairies and flying pink elephants.

  4. Crisp

    I wonder how much NSA spooks get paid to sit on twitter all day...?

    Well if I'm going to waste time browsing social media all day, it would be nice to get paid for it!

  5. Havemysay99

    I'm Shocked

    No one complains when your employer checks its employees facebook and twitter feeds and it must be remembered that some of the most recent atrocities within both the US and UK have been carried out by its own people and not terrorists, we want to be safe to go about our business, but complain about how that saftey is being assured.

    1. Don Jefe
      Stop

      Re: I'm Shocked

      But safety isn't being assured. All the surveillance has had zero impact on the frequency of an already rare event. As you point out yourself, the most recent attacks have happened while these 'safety assurance' programs were underway. They don't work.

      1. bitmap animal

        Re: I'm Shocked

        @ Don Jefe - "All the surveillance has had zero impact on the frequency of an already rare event"

        What makes you think that? Are you assuming that because every time the security services disrupt an upcoming event it isn't covered on the front pages of newspapers for days?

        Do you really think that it is in the interests of how they operate to let the world know how they stopped something? That is a very blinkered view. Sometimes the 'bad guys' get lucky and slip through the net, nothing is infallible.

    2. JimmyPage Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: I'm Shocked

      @Havemysay99

      Sorry, I have to call you out on "No one complains" ... a lot of people have complained. Even here, on El Reg. So please don't make sweeping statements like that.

  6. Velv

    I love the comments above. I love the comments Merkins are making about their lords and masters. I love the irony that the article is about the snooping of published information on open forums and Merkins are commenting on the article denouncing the practise... which will immediately be schlurpped into the NSA database and tagged to the offending Merkin.

    And don't for one minute think Anonymous Coward affords any protection from the NSA!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Yep, and there's a rubber hose waiting with your name on it too. :D

  7. david 12 Silver badge

    passenger manifests

    Bastards made that secret for "privacy" and security reasons decades ago. Good luck getting a look at a passenger manifest if you are NOT a secret TLA.

  8. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge
    Joke

    They could use Lord Vetinari's argument

    He stated that it makes more sense to spy on friends than on enemies, because you already know what your enemies think of you. By contrast, understanding your friends better by spying on them makes you even better friends.

    So really, the NSA want to be your friend

    Really

    Honestly

    We are only spying on you for the best reasons possible

  9. Purlieu

    Well, I fin’ly started thinkin’ straight

    When I run outa things to investigate

    Couldn’t imagine doin’ anything else

    So now I’m sittin’ home investigatin’ myself!

    Hope I don’t find out anything . . .

    Bob Dylan - John Birch Society Blues

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Coo Coo!

    All this spying technology is fine until it falls into the wrong hands.

    History has shown us that eventually some General or other will announce a state of emergency and promote a military coup.

    The problem that the Yanks have got is that the coup already took place and almost no-one noticed.

    Among other things, 9/11 was a message to anyone that wanted to rock the boat that their house and entire family would be flattened.

    I don't believe that Obama has ever had much choice in the matter, he is just another mouthpiece.

    For Heaven's sake use your brains!

    Steel framed buildings do not collapse at terminal velocity into their own footprint due to fire. It is not scientifically possible.and there are respectable scientists and engineers on the internet who will say so.

    The Patriot Act is the equivalent of Stalin's "Article 58" i.e. " counter-revolutionary crime" and that didn't end well for a lot of folk.

    I don't expect anything will change, it's only "business" after all. We cannot be allowed to get in the way of the greediest people on the planet, they want it all. The scum will always rise to the top.

    1. Don Jefe
      FAIL

      Re: Coo Coo!

      Do you mean 'cuckoo'? Coo coo, or cooing, is what pre-verbal babies do.

      Also, I'm a reasonably well respected engineer (occasionally on the Internet as well) and you shouldn't talk about things you don't understand. I'm not going to argue 9/11 conspiracy myths with you, just let you know that you are taking about things way over your head and not even using appropriate terminology. It is best if you stop.

      1. big_D Silver badge

        Re: Coo Coo!

        Pidegeons!

  11. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Gimp

    Who is the *real* Bryan Thomas Reynolds?

    American's seem to want to blame their incumbent president for this sort of s**t but the NSA is essentially a civil service agency (technically it's part of the USN, itself part of the DoD).

    In Enemy of the State it's called the "Telecommunications Security and Privacy Act" but we now call it THE PATRIOT Act.

    Proving that if you want to do something really sh***y in America, stick patriot, patriotism or some simile on it first.

    In order to identify the real "enemy within" you need to find who wrote it, and to what specification.

  12. JimmyPage Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    Why you don't want spies spying on *your* side

    Should be obvious really ... do you seriously see a politician saying to the spooks "Rummage around all you want in our dirty laundry" ?

    Remember there were very serious allegations that the spooks spied on Wilsons government in the 60s. Who knows what juicy "leverage" they gained over MPs ...

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What Twits!

    What Twits on social networks.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    What is missing in this story....

    I haven't read all the comments, but the article doesn't point out that the NSA's big data collation is already in place for non-U.S. residents and citizens for whom the u.s. constitution provides no protection. The NYT article points that out more fully.

  15. mego

    So, in summary

    NSA pretty much as bad as we all knew they were. And the story is...?

    1. dan1980

      Re: So, in summary

      The moment people stop being outraged and start just accepting that this is the way things are, that is the moment when the fight is lost.

      There is a window here to let the politicians around the world know that they have greatly over-stepped their responsibilities and that if they are going to justify their actions as for the good of the people then they have to listen to the voice of the people.

      Every new story like this and every bit of outrage and criticism keeps that window open.

      The price of liberty . . .

  16. henrydddd

    Yeah

    " or there is evidence of a crime.” As was shown by Hoover, I wonder when, not if, the crime in question is going to be along the order of people speaking against the government of the United States or anything that the government wants

  17. Denarius
    Trollface

    the irony again

    for some merkins, the irony will be that the merkin gov has created release 0.8 of their favourite boogyman, AntiChrist, instead of some liberal commie European socialist.

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