back to article Shaky liftoff for Sputnik: Dell's Linux lappie runs its own cloud, ish

Want a laptop running Linux? You could do worse than Dell's XPS 13. This svelte model began life a year or so ago as a Windows Ultrabook. More recently it was updated with Intel Ivy Bridge processors and a 13.3" 1080p screen. The XPS 13 Developer Edition - because only software developers use Linux, right? - uses a high-end …

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    1. Paul 135

      Re: Multiple desktops on windows...

      KDE's Activities over a superior work-flow for complex projects than just having multiple desktops (not of course that you will ever get to use it if you are using a retarded distro like Ubuntu as Dell are offering).

      1. Paul 135

        Re: Multiple desktops on windows...

        *over -> offer

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Multiple desktops on windows...

        No, it's not like Ubuntu offers you the option of using KDE as your default desktop during the install or anything...

        As an ever-so-clever KDE user, I thought you might understand the basic difference between a distro and a DE?

    2. Fatman
      FAIL

      Re: Multiple desktops on windows...

      NOW, WAIT A MINUTE!!!

      Ubuntu comes with those workspaces configured BY DEFAULT.

      You have to know where to find that before you can download and install those additional desktops.

      Most WindblowZE (l)users could not find their ass even with a GPS!!!

      1. nichomach
        Meh

        Re: Multiple desktops on windows...

        @Fatman - My experience has been that, actually, most Windows users are perfectly capable of finding whatever applications they want. By the way, could you perhaps post using the word "Microsoft", but spelt with a dollar sign? That one always cracks me up...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Multiple desktops on windows...

          "My experience has been that, actually, most Windows users are perfectly capable of finding whatever applications they want."

          I work in tech support, and I can assure you that they can't. Some of them are lucky if they can find the Start button.

    3. mmeier

      Re: Multiple desktops on windows...

      What is that good for in a graphics based windowing environment?

      I used that stuff back in the "Terminal days" for Unix. Useful in the text only/non windowing time. As soon as XWindows came out opening more than one XTerm most often did the job.

      Today I have dual/triple (With the Notebook screen as number three) or even quad monitor setups and more than enough screen real estate that I can "see" instead of having to switch.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Multiple desktops on windows...

        "What is that good for in a graphics based windowing environment?"

        Lots.

        "As soon as XWindows came out opening more than one XTerm most often did the job."

        Xterm doesn't support graphics applications very well.

        "Today I have dual/triple (With the Notebook screen as number three) or even quad monitor setups and more than enough screen real estate that I can "see" instead of having to switch."

        I have dual screens at work but once I set up the multiple desktops I turned off one of the monitors as it was serving no purpose. I don't actually WANT to see the other screens all the time; I just want a fast context switch. Actually having two whole screens full of stuff was only making visual clutter; having 10 would just be nuts. Before you moan, I know there are applications that do benefit from having two or more screens; but I'm not using one.

        1. mmeier

          Re: Multiple desktops on windows...

          Thanks for the answer. Matter of usage then. I only used them in "Text mode" under Unix so the XTerm and graphic apps part never came up and the rest is "different way of using the box"

  1. cowslayer
    Thumb Up

    I got one the day it got released, and have had no problems to date. Hibernation works, Shutdown works (every time), Bluetooth works, and most importantly it doesn't try to lift off by running the fans at full speed constantly like my old Viao. So there.

    Although I never got a ubuntu sticker on the front, only the logo etched into the base plate. Might need to return it now.

  2. sysconfig

    If the XPS was a bit cheaper, I'd be tempted to get one and try myself. But Ubuntu and its logos have got to go.

    Would be interesting to know just how much effort Dell has put into the hardware drivers and whether they'd work with Fedora as well. Or maybe even FreeBSD...

    1. eulampios

      Fedora

      whether they'd work with Fedora

      As was pointed by Chemist already, there is usually very little difference between the ubuntu kernel and upstream. Also given that RedHat is a major kernel contributor, while Canonical might only be a minor one, Fedora's generic kernel should be fine as well. As far as FreeBSD is concerned, I'd doubt it. FreeBSD, despite all efforts in getting into Apple's bed, is still light years behind Linux pace of development. However, the Linux compatibility module might be of much use there.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not impressed

    I compare-

    "It turns out that Dell's main effort has been to deliver a premium Linux notebook on which all the hardware works out of the box"

    with-

    "Shutdown can be problematic; sometimes it shuts down, sometimes it only logs out. Hibernation fails with a "device failed to thaw" error message. I had no success with Bluetooth; neither a keyboard nor an audio streamer would connect. Perhaps the biggest annoyance was when I connected a Canon camera and got the error message "unable to lock camera" and no access to my pictures."

    I am a fair noob to linux. I use it on my work machine, my home desktop and my laptop but it is only recent I migrated. However my £300 laptop runs mint (ubuntu version) with no problems with all control keys, camera, bluetooth, sound and most important shutdown. It is a dell machine btw.

    I also dont understand this-

    "I could not resist installing Valve's gaming platform Steam for Linux, which runs perfectly after a bit of fiddling with dependencies."

    I installed this on my home desktop with no issues. My fiddling with dependencies I believe it mentioned having to install some (do you want to install them 'yes' 'no'). It is still less installation screens than the windows install (I have it on my winbox too).

    As a developer I would be happy that the basics were installed and I can use the very simple install centre to add my choice in tools (purists can use apt-get if they wish). Also what happened to the dell selling point of choice? What if I dont want an SSD? And what the hell is wrong with them?!? Soldered memory!!! 8G is enough for what I do but for other developers this is an absolute minimum or even not enough.

    A feature like "such as the hardware battery status button on the right, which indicates the remaining charge by illuminating up to five LEDs" is worth little if the audio, camera, bluetooth and shutdown doesnt work properly.

    As a linux machine I find this shocking and embarrassing. Ubuntu/mint are great desktops and this offering is expensive and yet only seems to perpetuate the myth that linux isnt ready for desktop. Yes linux has problems with some hardware, often the seriously closed and poortly supported by manufacturer.

    When samsung made a mess of their secure boot it took little time for the clueless to blame linux. So assembling a poorly constructed machine as a linux offering is shameful and should reflect badly on the manufacturer. Just as providing a poor windows machine would be typically blamed on the manufacturer not the OS.

    I am not sure why Tim Anderson felt the need to mention some of the features of ubuntu itself (multiple windows, office already installed) unless he was trying to make up for a poor laptop by highlighting good features in the OS.

    Offering such a high price tag which compares with the windows version just because it gets upgraded support is also poor. What if we dont want the upgraded support, just some working drivers? If Tims experience with this laptop was my first experience of linux I would never use it. Lucky for me I have had few problems with various linux on any of my machines.

  4. Tank boy
    Linux

    Junk.

    For that price in the states I could buy something that I could upgrade the memory, with far more storage, and have money left over. In fact, I could buy two. I appreciate what Dell is trying to do, but this just rebranded (as in unsold) laptops that they couldn't give away, and I don't care that it's an i7. Not at that price, your mileage may vary.

    1. Captain Save-a-ho
      Coat

      Re: Junk.

      It wouldn't have a 13" screen that does 1080P. It also wouldn't weigh less than 3 lbs.

  5. Neil Barnes Silver badge
    Linux

    the absence of any and all OEM crapware

    Always a benefit.

    1. M. B.

      Re: the absence of any and all OEM crapware

      It's also a contributor to the cost, the crapware vendors often subsidize the cost of the laptop somewhat by having their software preinstalled. In this case, those subsidies look to cover the cost of the Windows license.

      Unfortunate. I'd still take a Linux box, myself. Can't get them in Canada yet.

  6. AJ MacLeod

    Soldered-in memory is to me a worrying trend - not so much from the upgrading point of view (that's annoying enough), but I have seen an awful lot of memory go bad after a few years and it seems like an unacceptable risk to me.

    The touchpad on that machine looks like it might be quite decent - any comparison to the Macbook Pro items?

  7. tabman

    Interesting

    For a while now on these forums, I have read postings calling for a linux laptop to be available at point of sale. This would be the second time that Dell have offered something like this as a mainstream offering. There are lots of arguements why the first offering failed and I have to wonder how successful it will be the second time around.

    Now is the time to see if Linux really is ready for the desktop and ready to replace Windows as the preloaded OS of choice for consumers.

    If Linux really is ready for the desktop (laptop) then an average user should at the very least be able to buy one of these and just continue as if nothing had happened. If Linux is not only ready for the desktop (laptop) but superior (as the evangelists are so fond of saying) then the user experience should be enhanced. Sales should go through the roof. MS dies, everyone switches to FOSS.

    I suspect that this offering will go the same way as it did the first time around. It will be interesting to see though.

    1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

      Re: Interesting

      The results might be different if the choice of Windows or Linux were to be made at the three or four hundred quid price point... and to more than one brand of computer.

      Though of course there will be the same effect as Acer had with the 'One' - "Take this back, it won't run XYZ.exe windows software." Er, it won't run apple software either, but no-one complains about that...

      The joke is of course that it's an almost cost-free option for a maker to drop Linux onto the machine. If it doesn't sell, revert to Windows (or perhaps don't install software until point of sale for mail order). Extra support costs, in the short term - but if my octogenarian technophobe parents can manage linux for the usual browse, skype, email, photos stuff, anyone can

    2. Lars Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: Interesting

      "Now is the time to see if Linux really is ready for the desktop and ready to replace Windows as the preloaded OS of choice for consumers."

      Sorry, but that is silly. On my desktops Linux has been ready for 14-15 years now. The problem is not Linux but the "chain". There is no incentive to sell Linux on the desktop anywhere. I have seen Linux a few times in computer shops, but then, try to find a person who knows anything about it or has any interest in selling it. And why should they!. There are no marketing campaigns for Linux anywhere. Ok IBM had a small Linux boy on TV a long time ago. I have Linux on the desktop but why should I care if there are those who have not. I don't give a shit.

      What is Dell expecting to "win" with a Linux desktop, I simply don't know. The only way I can think of to get Linux on the desktop is to sell, in the chain, multi booting desktops and let the customer later decide on what to use and when. But I suppose it's something a OEM is not allowed to do because of Microsoft.

      I have Linux in my router, in a ebook reader, perhaps in a printer and a TV and a washing machine. Did I ask for that, no, that choice was done elsewhere. So what the fuck about "Linux on the desktop", it will never happen (happened long ago) if there are no incentives for anybody to sell it.

      1. Lars Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: Interesting

        Adding to my previous post, what prevents Dell from selling a bare bone laptop and information on which Linux distros it will work, or a set of DVDs with Linux. Microsoft again?.

    3. HereWeGoAgain

      Re: Interesting

      "Now is the time to see if Linux really is ready for the desktop and ready to replace Windows as the preloaded OS of choice for consumers."

      Did you not read the list of normal things that just do not work on this Linux box? That is why people don't buy Linux. Instead they buy Windows because it works better.

      1. eulampios

        Windows is always without a problem

        list of normal things that just do not work on this Linux box?

        And how many times something even more normal won't work on a Windows box? Just google for "insert_normal_thing doesn't work on my Windows {Vista,7,8}" string .

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge

          Re: Windows is always without a problem

          For example, Windows 7 occasionally decides to disable the volume control.

          So you can drag it up and sounds happens, but it immediately fades it back to zero.

          This will continue to happen until you reboot, when it will have set all volume controls to zero (masters and per-application), but now lets you raise them - one at a time.

          There might be some incantation to fix that, but I haven't found it and the hundreds of Windows help fora appear clueless as to why.

          Seems to be related to other MS software - like MS Messenger or MS Skype.

          There are many other similar issues. Not surprising, as no software is perfect, but it is strange that they are so readily glossed over.

      2. JEDIDIAH
        Mushroom

        Re: Interesting

        > Did you not read the list of normal things that just do not work on this Linux box? That is why people don't buy Linux. Instead they buy Windows because it works better.

        No. That's why people shouldn't buy Dell.

        It's their job to set this stuff up right. It's their job to make sure that their choices actually work.

        This nonsense makes me glad that I didn't buy a Dell X51 for my last HTPC despite the fact that I was seriously considering it. It's far better to support a real Linux vendor.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @HereWeGoAgain

        Living up to your name, are we?

  8. billium
    FAIL

    Glossy screen no ethernet port.

  9. 27escape

    Generally not had a problem

    With recent-ish (last 3 years) Dell laptops and Linux, distro of choice goes on and laptop works.

    Not sure why they need to create a special one.

  10. HereWeGoAgain
    Devil

    Linux users = moaning losers

    "The machine comes with two bits of open-source software:"

    Ignoring all the open-source GNU/Linux software that is otherwise installed.

    "Sputnik is a cool project, but remains in an early stage of development "

    It doesn't work.

    "Dell directed me to the people who know about Sputnik"

    It's too hard for any usual form of technical support.

    "We got the touchpad to be full multi-touch"

    Something Windows/Mac did years ago.

    "there is still a Windows key"

    Maybe some people will install Windows. Just think: there should be a Linux key. For the <1% of people who might install Linux.

    "the only documentation in my review sample"

    RTFM. man man. You have the source code, you don't need documentation.

    "I also notice that although the GNU GCC compiler is installed"

    But I only develop in Perl/PHP/Python/Lua/Erlang/Tcl. Am I covered? Else I won't buy it.

    "I have yet to see this list, but neither LXC nor Juju was installed on the review sample."

    I'm definitely not buying it then.

    "Developers are unlikely to care much about what is installed, since it is easy to add and remove packages "

    So why complain about LXS or Juju?

    "Still, the lack of documentation is an annoyance"

    RTFM. man man...

    "getting devices to work under Linux is often a challenge."

    It has often been a challenge. If you don't want a challenge, install Windows.

    "the audio works"

    So did audio on OS/2. So what?

    "after a bit of fiddling with dependencies."

    Usual problem with Linux. It does simply not work properly for average Joe User.

    "the absence of any and all OEM crapware"

    That's cos there ain't any for Linux. Apart from things like "ls", "ps", and "less". And "more" too, as none of those tools are Linux-specific.

    "I had my share of things that do not quite work"

    Work/not work is a binary thing. If it does not work, it does not work. It does not "not quite work".

    "first thing I did was to install all available updates"

    Cos Linux packages get updated almost every day, you are now on a conveyor belt of updates.

    "Shutdown can be problematic; sometimes it shuts down"

    Linux can't even shut down properly?!

    "Hibernation fails with a "device failed to thaw" error message"

    Hibernation does not work.

    "I had no success with Bluetooth"

    Bluetooth does not work.

    "no access to my pictures."

    But this is a developers, developers, developers machine. Why do you need pictures?

    "But such is Linux"

    Yes. It does not work properly. In just about every field of desktop usage, Linux sucks donkey balls.

    "most problems of this kind can be solved with sufficient effort "

    Or by using Windows instead.

    "patience in trawling through forums"

    Full of "me too" messages, where 1% of posters have a clue and the rest don't know jack.

    "Still, it is not quite the first-class experience I was hoping for."

    Dream on.

    "It is a shame Dell offers no customisation options"

    That's cos they don't want Linux losers asking for Debian/Centos/Mandriva/Slackware/Ubuntu/Edubuntu/Yellow Dog/Red Flag/ etc.

    "You would think that using free software would mean a lower price."

    Quite the opposite if you count your time into getting it working.

    "the Developer Edition comes with Pro support"

    That's because, as mentioned, Linux is too difficult for usual tech support teams.

    "if you buy a Windows laptop and use with Linux, you will not get any joy from the supplier when trying to get Bluetooth working."

    If you use Windows, you won't need any help getting Bluetooth working.

    "a worthwhile effort but one that is currently half-baked"

    It doesn't work. Like Linux on the desktop generally.

    "given its slow progress"

    Linux is a moving target. No sooner does somebody write something for version x.y.z of a package, it changes to x.yz.1 and then suddenly no longer works.

    Linux is not fit for the desktop. It never has been, and is unlikely ever to be. Dell should not waste their time for the developer proportion of the <1% of Linux desktop users. If losers want to buy Dell hardware and install their own Prancing Penguin Linux that is their pleasure. And waste of time.

    1. Paul 135

      Re: Linux users = moaning losers

      What you call "moaning" is more constructive criticism. Linux users at present tend to be technical people who are more likely to have perfectionist tendencies.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Linux users = moaning losers

      Kettle!!! This teapot over here wants to tell you something!!

      @HereWeGo: Just don't fucking buy it mate, but stop whingeing will ya sad bastard.

  11. DB9

    FIX THE SCREEN!!! WUXGA FTW!

    What all of us Linux folks want is a 4:3 video screen.

    1920x1200 on 15.something inches is nirvana for us Linux geeks

    1680x1050 on a smaller screen in ok too.

    But get rid of these BluRay video screens. We geeks don't want them. We don't care if we get black bars at the top/bottom of movies being played back.

    What we geeks what is rows upon rows of text. And since we all wear glasses and have laptops 15" from our faces, the text is not too small. Ever.

    IF Dell came out with a WUXGA "Linux" laptop that was under $1000 with i3 or i5, it'd sell faster than they could make them. Every Linux geek wants one.

    1. John H Woods Silver badge

      Re: FIX THE SCREEN!!! WUXGA FTW!

      ^^^ THIS ^^^

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is it just me...?

    ...or does "No Ethernet" pose a problem? I know everything has to wireless nowadays, but when working in an office or at home there is a lot to be said for wired networking. Security, for one thing. How much would it cost to add an Ethernet port?

    I stopped thinking about buying one of these when I read that, anyway.

    1. Christian Berger

      Re: Is it just me...?

      Wow, I didn't think anybody would still have the audacity to build a laptop without Ethernet. No wonder it won't sell. That's just idiotic.

      I stand by my point that this is a deliberate train wreck.

  13. Nelbert Noggins

    But it's not a designed for Linux laptop. It's the XPS 13 for Windows with Ubuntu and an alpha set of tools for developers.

    The software tools aren't even even specific to the laptop. The only part that makes this a linux specific machine is dell have tried to get the hardware drivers, which are also in a repository, and pre-install them.

    Unfortunately that doesn't seem to have worked well. Looking through the forums, there have been ongoing hardware issues since the release. The biggest benefit for the Linux version is for companies with volume license wanting an i7 Windows machine cheaper.

    Buy the Linux Edition, install the corporate VL edition of windows, save money and avoid the Windows crapware... The mandatory 2yr AV subscription in the Windows version is one of the main reasons for the price increase between the Windows and Linux i7

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    nope. Not acceptable

    I'll take my T420 thanks.

    soldered on ram, glossy screen and no ethernet? nope nope nope.

    Running FC18, T420, 16G ram and 480G SSD, *everything* works, including kvm, Direct Rendering etc.

    But hell, I'm a paid linux admin. I suppose it damned well should work.

  15. Paul 135

    Why do laptop manufacturers STILL not get and make hardware that people would PAY for?

    Why are laptop PC manufacturers still not listening to what users who want a machine to be PRODUCTIVE by giving them the hardware they want? It isn't so hard, as they almost had it perfect about 7 years ago, only to lose all sense with the era of glossy "HD" screens.

    First and foremost give us a goddamn matte screen with sRGB coverage and a screen ratio that is taller than the GOD AWFUL 16:9.

    Secondly, stop going backwards by removing things that are useful such as ethernet, soldering in RAM, making it difficult to get at batteries.

  16. Rufus
    FAIL

    Keyboard kills it!

    I don't know about other developers, but shrinking the size of the cursor keys and making them share functionality with the Home and End is a FAIL for me.

    Selecting blocks of code now becomes a convulted 3 finger process - if I wanted to press unecessary extra keys I'd choose a Macbook Pro!

    Now if Dell put a high res screen in the E6230 - that would be near perfect!

  17. Paul 135

    Why is there not an EU law?

    Why is there not an EU law mandating that any PC vendor must also offer the option to any customer to buy their PC at a cheaper price, without an operating system pre-installed? The fact is that, at present, not very many people like Windows 8, yet have no other option than to buy it if they want a new PC (this case being the rare exception).

    I understand that this could cause support headaches, but there could be a clause stating that if the user is having software difficulties with their own software then the vendor is not obliged to give support for non-hardware issues. However, the vendor at an extra charge equivalent to no more than the original price difference between the OS and no OS, must offer post-sales service to install the manufacturer's OS of choice to cover software support.

    This is not only useful for those of us who do not want to use Windows, but also for those of us who do not want to be presented with retarded Linux distros such as Ubuntu (or "Um Bongo-grade bonkers" as El Reg called Ubuntu in their openSUSE review)

    1. mmeier

      Re: Why is there not an EU law?

      Oh, you can give back the Windows licence. Dell will even refund you what THEY paid for it - around 10-15€.

      1. Tom 7

        Re: Why is there not an EU law?

        You cant give back a windows licence if the laptop and os come as a 'package' though. Found a few places that will take the machine and give you a full refund but not cough up a license refund.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Why is there not an EU law?

          " You cant give back a windows licence if the laptop and os come as a 'package' though. "

          Yes you can Tom. They may tell you you can't, but respond that you will solicit the advise of your local consumer organisation or your administration's commerce department, and they will soon back off.

          1. Tom 7

            Re: Why is there not an EU law?

            I see you haven't tried - it would have cost me more to do so - they do not back off easily and you obviously haven't contacted your local consumer organisation lately - they dont seem to respond to emails and are over an hours drive away.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Why is there not an EU law?

      « Why is there not an EU law mandating that any PC vendor must also offer the option to any customer to buy their PC at a cheaper price, without an operating system pre-installed? »

      Because a specific law is not needed. Notwithstanding what their respective EULAs may say (Dell's used to have something about them wanting you to return the whole thing if you didn't agree with certain third parties' licences), it is not the case that you are obliged to buy someone else's software that might come pre-installed with the machine.

      I do not remember the details (not that I really understood them) but in civil law countries, generally you cannot be forced into an agreement with a third party which is not also a part of the original contract.

      Until about three years ago I always asked for, and got, a refund or discount off the sale price equivalent to the price of the third parties' (usually OEM) licence costs. Nowadays it seems a lot easier for me to buy pristine hardware so I haven't had to negotiate this for a while, but it was never a problem, not even with Dell.

      1. Paul 135

        Re: Why is there not an EU law?

        Dell may do so, and you may have had personal luck, but the problem is that it isn't a consistent experience across PC manufacturers and not a consistent experience across retail outlets, and not a consistent experience between countries.

        The EU is in the perfect position to simplify this and make it more obvious for average consumers. I also think that you should not have to submit any claim retrospectively.

        Heck, it shouldn't only affect Microsoft either -- if it were to apply to all PCs and Apple (who won't get away with an argument that they don't sell PCs) were forced to decouple their software and hardware if that's what the consumer wants then I might even consider a MacBook, I wouldn't then feel as uncomfortable about contributing to crApple's lock-in ecosystem through crappy and obscure OSX.

  18. Paul 135

    while I'm ranting about Europe...

    ...can someone in Europe not redesign European keyboards? This has been bugging me for years, but why do European keyboards all insist in having a tiny shift key on the left and a humongous shift key on the right? Could you not take that extra key added on the left side and move it to the right side so that the two shift keys are roughly the same size?

  19. Jim 59
    Stop

    Microsoft

    No chance. Absolutely no chance. Microsoft will act fast to get this off the market. They have kept choice out of the desktop market for 20 years and they are experts at it. Right now, Ballmer will be heading round to the Dell head office with a garden gnome under his arm.

    You WILL forcibly purchase windows with every PC.

  20. JEDIDIAH
    Linux

    Stupid design, different logo.

    I wouldn't buy the Dell branded version of this thing for the same reason that I wouldn't buy the Apple branded version of this thing. A Unix box without a wired ethernet port? Really?

    This was never a Unix developer's mobile workstation.

    A half-hearted and lackluster attempt all around from the beginning.

    How about just marking the penguin friendly configurations? Better yet, just build a website with decent search features so we can sort this stuff out for ourselves.

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