back to article If Google got a haircut, a tie and a suit, would it be Microsoft?

Prepare yourself. It's a new month, and that can only mean a tsunami of articles on the popularity of Internet Explorer, Chrome and Firefox will flood the globe's news aggregators. For non-mobile computers, March followed the trend emerging over the past 12 months: growth for Chrome, a drop in use of IE and Firefox stuck in a …

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Google winning the browser wars - not as scary as the dark days of IE

So without adverts Google would be selling software? it's hardly fair to use the profits from one side of your business to subsidise given away another product in a different market for free. That is anti-competitive.

It's no different to Microsoft using Windows profits to subsidise selling XBoxes or something else for lower than cost.

Google are evil, simple as. They'll get a vastly high mobile marketshare and then start charging for the OS.

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FAIL

Re: Google winning the browser wars - not as scary as the dark days of IE

Eadon,

you really must stop and think before opening your mouth and spouting forth.

IBM have adopted Linux, very true. But there is no way they have dropped AIX.

If you want the most from a Power 6/6+/7/7+ CPU Then AIX is the way to go.

I dare you to go to an IBM office and tell them that they (IBM) have dropped AIX. They have not.

Total fail

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Google winning the browser wars - not as scary as the dark days of IE

@Eadon - You keep on banging on about IBM and getting it wrong. I work for IBM, we use lots of Linux, we run Linux as a service for some customers, we produce sofware which runs on Linux, but we also use and run Windows as a service and HPUX and Solaris, zOS, etc, etc.

Some people use Linux on their workstations, but the vast majority use Windows. That said, if we wanted to use any GPL in a piece of software that we are developing, it's basically not going to happen. We contribute to Linux, but we don't use GPL code, not without a swarm of lawyers all over us.

Making comments like IBM has dropped AIX show you up to have no credibility whatsoever.

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@Eadon

"Google want to use their browser to help sell ads. MS want to use their browser to lock you in."

And as a professional, one of these leads to a readily understood risk, while the upshot of the other is a big scary question mark. What exactly are google willing to do with their browser to help sell ads? For MS lock-in is presumably sufficient, but clearly it can't end there for Google if their mission is to "monetize" their market share.

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Boffin

Re: Google winning the browser wars - not as scary as the dark days of IE

No Eadon, I was not nit picking pedantically.

You were making false claims. End of story. There are HACMP features in AIX that ost Linux users can only dream about. Still nowt comes close to VMS Clustering though and that is 30yrs old this year.

Please carry on slagging off Microsoft and leave others alone.

btw, I've just completed a POC on a Power 7 System. Using the same Application Software (made by IBM) the AIX based solution outperformed the Linux based solution by close to 40% in raw throughput.

ergo, AIX is tuned to work on Power H/W a lot better than Linux. Guess which O/S we will be using?

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Linux

Re: Google winning the browser wars - not as scary as the dark days of IE

The problem with Microsoft isn't that they're proprietary, it's that they're crap.

Although all monopolies are annoying, even those run by competent engineers (AT&T, IBM).

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Linux

Re: Google winning the browser wars - not as scary as the dark days of IE

> There are HACMP features in AIX that ost Linux users can only dream about.

IBM itself is pretty agnostic when it comes to tech. They are far less enthusiastic about pushing AIX then you are. Same goes for PPC kit.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Google winning the browser wars - not as scary as the dark days of IE

@Eadon - Now let's go through my post again:

Linux is not replacing systems in house, new systems may run linux, older systems tend to stay running what they've always run. Linux is much more likely to run new stuff than replace old stuff.

I'm fully aware Linux is GPL, that's why I brought it up - IBM write code for linux, we've put a lot of money into it, this code is GPL, we don't use other GPLd code in our products or even around our other products without a swarm of lawyers making sure that we're doing it right. No contradiction.

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Devil

Re: Google winning the browser wars - not as scary as the dark days of IE

Someone is feeling a little paranoid, why charge for a free OS when it makes them billions in the search market.

Nothing illegal being done you just don't understand the law AT ALL.

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Devil

Re: @Eadon

Ever heard of BING - Microsoft want to lock you in AND sell ads. They don't want to just kill Google they want to steal their market.

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Windows

Listening to your customers....

THAT is what Microsoft really should do a lot more often. And then I'm not talking about the several inquiries they perform on their websites ("has this information helped you?") or the rants you see on several blogs.

I'm talking about listening to the people who actually use, respect and like your products, preferably before they move on to something else.

I'm quite new to the Visual Studio environment, but what I've done is go over a lot of forums (even trying to help out people myself if I could) in order to get a good impression of what could be done, what couldn't and which caveats I had to look out for. I also found the place where users could make feature requests...

If the number one request (link to visual studio feature request site) is to bring back colour to the program which gets 12.500 (approx) votes and 1100 (approx) comments then surely its not that hard to realize that something is seriously amiss here?

(for the record: when you look at page 2 or further you'll notice that an average good idea has approx. 1000 votes or lower (800+, 600+, etc). So twelve thousand is really a lot!).

But... Nope. Microsoft has very quickly worked up a theme editor to bring some sanity back to the user interface, but the colours remain mostly absent.

NOW realize that this same interface is in par with the overall 'new' Windows look and feel. Office has almost the same look and feel to it, including the NICE TO READ MENUS. And although I know there is a difference between programmers and office users, the line that separates them can be quite thin (sitting the whole day behind Visual Studio, or sitting the whole day behind Word, Excel and maybe PowerPoint).

That is in my opinion Microsoft's number one problem today. They don't seem to realize (enough) that they're no longer in a position where they can dictate the world. At least by far in the same amounts as they could in the past.

So yes; when people dislike something enough they move on. If you don't want that to happen you really need to come up with something which will attract people's interest instead of scaring them off whilst you keep on claiming that "you redefined the way people work".

Get your act together Microsoft, before the empire comes crumbling down.

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Re: Listening to your customers....

The Internet is an echo chamber and the loudest noise often comes from a vocal minority, rather than necessecarily representing the population at large. Obviously anybody who does like the new VS UI (personally I'm not a big fan) isn't going to be submitting a feature request to leave it as it is, are they? And taken as a proportion of the overall number of Visual Studio users out there, twelve thousand isn't really very many at all.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Listening to your customers....

Technology companies don't listen to their customers because your customer will tell you what they want now, which will often be a slightly improved version of what they have already. By the time you give them this slightly improved product, it will be 18 months after they want it.

If you asked people what they wanted from a smartphone in 2006 they would probably have said better battery, nicer camera, better keyboard. They wouldn't have said App store, multi-touch or stylus free touch screen. The customer basically doesn't know jack-shit in most cases, they aren't in the loop of what technology is available!

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Re: Listening to your customers....

"Technology companies don't listen to their customers "

Tech companies tend to listen to those that actually pay them. If you are in the top 10 customers list for a tech company they will do all sorts of crazy things to add colour, menu items and hold off retiring applications that only you use.

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Opera the sad panda

No wonder its share is dropping. It has dropped the support of Unite, will drop Presto in favor of WebKit... oh well.

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Re: Opera the sad panda

Dammit want to defend Opera but can't :(

Havent used it much since as the only feature I still like over other browsers is the close and have everything saved by default (Much like Lotus Notes).

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Re: Opera the sad panda

Even so, Google still doesn't play nice with it. Tried to get into their Cloud Storage thing earlier today. Computer said no, suggested I use Chrome instead. This is behaviour learned from Microsoft.

-A.

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Google Apps = pretty good, Chrome = not so much

We use Google Apps for business here, and in fairness, they are pretty good. Lots of functionality (even if Docs can be a bit flaky), lots of good collaboration tools. Only thing which grates is the constant new interfaces on GMail (got round by using Outlook instead) and the Calendar.

Chrome itself however? Kill it, kill it with fire. So far I;ve seen it reduce well specced laptops to a crawl, fill up every C: drive it can find with crap, start up 20 useless processes in Task Manager, forget passwords randomly and generally be a little bitch. I've stuck with Firefox and it seems to work much better,

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Anonymous Coward

Mistry told The Reg

""As a product manager, I have to dispel myths - and tell lots of lies," Mistry told The Reg."

Fixed.

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Browsium said […] no one it has spoken to has made Chrome the primary office web browser

They can't have talked to that many people. Which makes their 'insight' into the browser market somewhat dubious.

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Thumb Up

Chrome > IE6

The business I work for, (large worldwide insurance company) has ditched IE6 for everything but our intranet. Chrome is installed for everything else.

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Anonymous Coward

Microsoft: Where do you want to go today

Google: We know where you went today.

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FAIL

So ever heard of BING ? Microsoft want to know where you go to they just can't work out how to do it as well as Google.

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WTF?

First time in a long time.

Was needing to purchase some goods from a manufacturer in the north of England yesterday and for the first time in at least 3 years I was unable to proceed as the site required IE 6 now this left me with three options,

1) Install it in wine and piss around trying to get the bugger to work. I don't care what anyone else says I've never found wine reliable.

2) call their sales department and make the order (it was 7pm)

3) Purchase similar item from different supplier

Yeah I choose number 3!

The thing that bugs me about this conversation is that we are still having it in 2013! It strikes me that a lot of IT departments have known about this issue since the release of IE7 7 years ago! What the fuck do they expect build something once on some proprietary code base and think it will continue to run forever! Yes you could just run it on internal systems but the flags have been there for everyone to see for years!

The other part of this question that puzzles me is how complicated are these internal systems that could not be re-written easily using more modern code and open standards?

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Re: First time in a long time.

@BeerTokens: "What the fuck do they expect build something once on some proprietary code base and think it will continue to run forever!"

You're forgetting that being able to do that was precisely the lie developers were pushing when most of these businesses were being sold "web applications" as a replacement for their internal Windows applications in the first place. Having been told it would free them from the pain of having to upgrade systems as regularly and bypass all those compatility issues, only to find out in managed neither, it's hardly surprising many are sceptical about doing it all again just because another bunch of web developers are touting how HTML5 will make all those same problems go away and everything will "just work"

Until the industry grows up a bit and learns that you just can't break existing applications, regardless of what kind of crappy code they have, the world will be lumbered with the pain of massive fragmentation in the browser market and people running old versions just to make site X work.

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Linux

Re: First time in a long time.

> 1) Install it in wine and piss around trying to get the bugger to work. I don't care what anyone else says I've never found wine reliable.

This is pretty much automagical in any recent variation of wine including the commercial ones they sell in the Mac section of Best Buy or the one you can get from the Ubuntu repository.

That's not a very interesting example of wine really.

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Trollface

Re: First time in a long time.

Ever tried IE Tab for Firefox ?

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On the systems here Chrome will NOT be installed.

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Anonymous Coward

For God's sake, Eadon, give it a rest. We're so far beyond tedious that it's stopped even being amusing, just grindingly predictable.

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Linux

hehe

Eadon is like one of these vietnamese soldiers and you MS operatives have a hard time with him, just like the US Army had then.

He is after you not because he is in the pay of a competing corrupt leader like you are, but because he hates your support of corrupt leaders. Now have fun in the next Tet offensive !

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Anonymous Coward

Re: hehe

That's the thing though: I don't just do MS, I use all the UNIXes, Linux, Mac OS, Windows even RISC OS. They are all good at some things and less good at others, suggesting that there is something inherently "evil" or "corrupt" is just pathetic. The sooner that people who are "Windows users" and "Linux users" (etc) realise that they better themselves if they learn other OSes the better. And learn them, not just try them for five minutes and react badly because it's not what they're used to and somehow therefore worthless.

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Re: hehe

After Tet the Vietcong where no longer a factor in the Vietnam War. The North Vietnamese government basically used them up as cannon fodder. Post Tet it was mostly the regular NV army doing the fighting. And when the US started fighting seriously - NV ran to the conference table.

Too bad Congress later was so obsessed with Tricky Dick that they abandoned South Vietnam to the Commies

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Anonymous Coward

Re: hehe

@Eadon - Like I said those who can't be arsed to better themselves just slag off what they see as the "opposition"

Pathetic really, you can learn so much about your favorite OS by learning about other OSes.

Care to say why you think that storing your settings in a journalling database with ACLs for every single setting is a "disaster"? Over conf files, or was that one a cnf file, or is it in a directory called conf, or config - Linux needs a standard - where you can set access at the file level or nothing.

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Devil

Yes Eadon listen to ********'s opinion - oh wait it is probably a spam bot - just ignore it.

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Anonymous Coward

IOt's even pretty well argued spam, with spelling mistakes/gramatical mistakes, or a genuine person who wants to remain anonymous.

Incidentally, is "David Simpson 1" one of Eadon's alter egos or another person, I just don't know.

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Re: hehe

The database gets out of sync with the filesystem state really easily, it prevents seamless install of apps by just copying them in? It prevents partitioning a users space over different file systems. It can't be cleaned up.

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Re: hehe

GOOD engineers use the RIGHT system for the task and that depends on a lot of things. Like "what does the end user have" (Makes little sense to force a Linux box into a Windows network or a Windows server in a Solaris environment), "does the job need special hardware and how is the mid/long term support" (Try connecting to a S5/S7 series communication processor) and so on. So they know many systems and choose.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: hehe

@Tinker Tailor Soldier:

It's a journalling database - it doesn't get out of sync with the filesystem. Ever.

You can easily install apps by copying them, you dump the appropriate part of the registry copy it and the associated files to the target and then install it. That said you shouldn't do this, you should use the appropriate package msi etc. That goes for Linux as much as it does for Windows.

It in no way prevents partitioning a users' filespace over different filesystems.

It can be cleaned up, should it need to be, in fact it can be cleaned up more easily than with individual text files because everything is in the same place and presented to you through a dedicated application in a tree structure.

I have still to hear a compelling argument against The Registry which doesn't boil down to "it's different to what I know, therefore no good."

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Inept management with a taste for wonky policy over longterm strategy will never be proactive. The only known temporary cure for their doofusitis is a hefty boot up the arse, preferably a wince-inducing financial one. XP, IE6 and Office 2007 were still in daily use at my last public sector job. The real pain for the clingy ones is when their slothlike SQL Server ugrades require more than one step to extract the contents of the db.

Following Google's failed attempt to take over the socmedia market with the cavernous echo chamber that is G+, I'm even more wary of their hype-fuelled ambitions exceeding their ability to deliver.

As a browser, Chrome has some odd behaviours which I find slightly offputting. The default UI's a bit meh too.

I wouldn't use IE if MS paid me. Firefox may be delightfully klutzy, but it does what I want it to, happily integrates Adblock, and doesn't insist on phoning home every five nanoseconds.

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Anonymous Coward

No admin rights required.

IE in any version is CRAP. However, being able to install and update Chrome manually without resorting to Helldesk makes all the difference.

Ever since windows7 was deployed here, our intranet geniuses were forced to recode all to the new IE and forcibly it works in chrome.

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Joke

Google - "We are extremely cautions about privacy."

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Flame

Why Joking ?

They are certainly jealously guarding their intel take from the competition. Monitored, card-reader-protected doors, elevators everywhere and so on.

They won't divulge a bit of their treasure, except when they receive a piece of paper with an FBI, DHS, or any of the other 277 eligible agencies' letterhead.

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Would like to argue the comparison

on the point of google being like m$ in promoting their interests -

1) Google products and services do work with other browsers, including IE and in fact, even konqueror ! It treats konqueror as 'safari'. This may change if they become the dominant browser. However, Google does follow standards for the most part, even if they happen to be among the first to support them. Of course, their desire to push dart reminds one of active X etc.

2) m$ went above and beyond giving preference to IE in THEIR products/services. IMO, they were within their right to support IE over and above competitors' browsers. What I cannot condone is the fact that they twisted every ISV to do the same. I haven't forgotten how most 3rd party software insisted that they would only work with IE, even when the s/w itself was a desktop or client server application ! In fact, many of them even bundled IE as part of their installation process since windows 95.

Yes, most companies resort to such tactics to promote their business but m$ went above and beyond the call of nether primarily because they totally lack imagination, brain power etc to actually run a tech business and they would be lost without their underhanded ways. For e.g., look what browser dominance led to - NOTHING. It was easy for m$ to screw competitors on windows and then WHAT ? If they had any imagination, they would have come out with new products and services based on this dominance; instead, they wait for someone else to come out with ideas and then steal from them.

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According to Secunia...?

I don't like Chrome. I don't like the idea that Google - an advertising company - should also be in the browser business. They also don't seem to be very good at developing secure software: Secunia's vulnerability list had Chrome at the top of the table for number of vulnerabilities last year...

I don't understand why Adobe feel the need to install Chrome by default when installing flash player, either, but I am not party to any agreement that's happened between the two companies.

Firefox? Sure. Chrome? Too many ulterior motives for Google I'm afraid.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: According to Secunia...?

> I don't like Chrome. I don't like the idea that Google - an advertising company - should also be in the browser business.

Yes, i only ever use Bing and Internet Explorer 10 ...

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Devil

Re: According to Secunia...?

Funny - it was the only broswer to beat the hacking competition for several years in a row.

Microsoft have Bing - Search and advertising, what have you been smoking ?

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