Animal Liberation Australia has acquired a drone and plans to fly over farms and film animal cruelty. Mark Pearson, Animal Liberation's executive director, told The Reg concerned members of the public told him about drones and their potential application capturing aerial surveillance of mistreated animals. Pearson said he put …

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1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 09:40 GMT Denarius
  
  Re: Good on 'em
  
  obviously you have not met any farmers, or more likely, been wound up at the pub. Farmers care about their stock for reasons of rational self interst. Contented stock are more profitable. Have you had a look at the old stock routes ? Muranji for instance. A long, dry way to go to slaughter. There are rules about food and water stops for cattle road trains.
  
  As for animal liberationists, one has to wonder how much of their attitudes are derived from romances about cartoon Bambis. Domesticated big animals have longer healthier lives than most wild life. The cases of cruelty locally were filmed without drones, except perhaps the organics carrying hidden cameras. One wonders if libbers will object to drones following them when they plan their activities
  
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2. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 09:45 GMT Liam Thom
  
  Re: Good on 'em
  
  WTF? Breeding cattle for slaughter in no way excludes people from caring about their animals' welfare. You ruined a good point about transportation by showing your bigotry.
  
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3. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 11:42 GMT Admiral Grace Hopper
  
  Re: Good on 'em
  
  A long time ago in a different lifetime I spent a few interesting months working in an abattoir. While I didn't witness or perform Kosher or HalAl slaughter, I do know from my experience on the killing floor that if it wasn't quick, efficient and painless then the practice wouldn't have survived for several thousand years. Any killing method that is neither quick, efficient nor painless tends to have an inconveniently high rate of failure which, when you're killing a cow, can quickly result in 3/4 of a ton of Very Pissed Off Indeed. This a sufficiently sub-optimal result to ruin a whole day. There has been a lot of work done on de-stressing animals prior to slaughter not only for the sake of the animals, but because it makes slaughtering much more efficient. I recommend a quick google on Temple Grandin, she's the go-to-girl for cattle management.
  
  Sheep are less of a problem, but once you're killing for the wider population then pigs can be a nightmare. Get them stressed and you've got to get them calmed down again and flush the adrenaline from their bloodstream otherwise the meat tastes awful.
  
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  1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 12:30 GMT Sparks
    
    Re: Good on 'em
    
    From over 30 years ago (seriously, what does it take to settle arguments like this?):
    
    http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/printhalalstudy.htm
    
    From Deutsche Tieraerztliche Wochenschrift (German veterinary weekly) volume 85 (1978), pages 62-66
    
    translated by Dr Sahib M. Bleher, Dip Trans MIL
    
    The approach of these studies can be summarised as follows:
    
    Experiments for measuring the heart frequency and brain activity during slaughter conditions were carried out on 23 sheep and 15 calves. After implanting permanent electrodes into the Os frontale the cerebral cortex impulses were measured for 17 sheep and 10 calves during ritual slaughter and for 6 sheep and 5 calves during captive bolt application with subsequent bloodletting. Some sheep were additionally subjected to thermal pain stimuli after the ritual cut.
    
    ...
    
    These first experiments carried out under clinical conditions and the insights for the correlations of sensory physiology during stunning/slaughter of small ruminants initially lead to the following factual and legal considerations for the preparation of legislation:
    
    These experiments on sheep and calves carried out within a clinic show that during a ritual slaughter, carried out according to the state of the art using hydraulically operated tilting equipment and a ritual cut, pain and suffering to the extent as has since long been generally associated in public with this kind of slaughter cannot be registered; the ritual slaughter carried out under these experimental conditions complies with the requirements of article 4 para. 1 TierSchG. The EEG zero line – as a certain sign of the expiration of cerebral cortex activity and according to today’s state of knowledge also of consciousness – occurred generally within considerably less time than during the slaughter method after captive bolt stunning.
    
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    1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 14:01 GMT Badvok
      
      Re: Good on 'em
      
      You have to wonder about a study that includes the statement: "A clear reaction to the cut could not be detected in any animal." when talking about slitting the throat of a living, breathing mammal. As soon as the knife cuts through the throat they stop trying to breathe or react to the pain of the cut - yeah right, of course they do, keep telling yourself that and you'll soothe your conscience. I suspect there is a just a little bit of bias in that report.
      
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      1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 14:20 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: Good on 'em
        
        > As soon as the knife cuts through the throat they stop trying to breathe or react to the pain of the cut - yeah right, of course they do,
        
        Indeed so, since just before the blade got to the throat it cut the main artery to the brain, so the animal was already unconscious. If you've ever cut yourself badly with a really sharp knife you'll know that it takes several seconds before you register pain, often that is after you see the blood start to pour.
        
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        Tuesday 2nd April 2013 15:35 GMT Badvok
        
        Re: Good on 'em
        
        Unless you are relying on movies and television as your main information sources (see Dr. Spock) you may also be aware that it actually takes several seconds for a loss of blood pressure/flow to the brain to bring on full unconsciousness. The searing pain and struggle for breath are likely to prolong this time, though with the artery cut at least there wouldn't also be an adrenaline boost.
        
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4. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:07 GMT Phil O'Sophical
  
  Re: Good on 'em
  
  > Animals are moved on journeys that often exceed 1000km or more in crowded cattle trucks to a coastal port.
  
  isn't that called "Qantas Economy Class" ?
  
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Tuesday 2nd April 2013 09:31 GMT Anonymous Coward

Hmm...

I seem to recall reading that anti-fox hunting protesters in the UK are using (or maybe looking at using) UAVs in order to follow hunts and make sure that they're not allowing the hounds to kill the fox. Having seen the aftermath of some hunts - they're happy to take hunts through people's gardens and over private land - it's something they can and should put up with.

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1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 10:03 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: Hmm...
  
  as long as they themselves agree to be followed by UAVs wherever they go, with all footage available to anyone who wants it, with or without a warrant, then no problem.
  
  4 4
  1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 10:55 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Re: Hmm...
    
    If you run horses onto other people's land without any warning, for desire to chase an animal, you give up any rights to your own "privacy" in my opinion.
    
    Anyway, if they don't complain about all the Internet based mapping services, they can hardly complain about being watched from a toy airplane.
    
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    1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 12:31 GMT Anonymous Coward
      
      Re: Hmm...
      
      then let the police deal with the matter, if they are committing an offence.
      
      How do you know "they don't complain ab out all the Internet based mapping services"? have you asked all of "them" ?
      
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      1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:30 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: Hmm...
        
        That's the point, the Police don't have the time or resources to deal with hunts, hence why data gathering techniques such as these are being undertaken by anti-hunt types.
        
        It's very much like my use of a cycle camera when I cycle in city traffic - I'm pretty sure that the people cutting me up object to being filmed, but I don't have a particularly large amount of sympathy for them. Also, that their (potential) crimes are being committed in public does remove any real expectation of privacy.
        
        2 5
        
        Friday 5th April 2013 17:02 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: Hmm...
        
        fine, so the next time a cyclist cycles across a pedestrian crossing rather than behaving properly, you support pedestrians "rights" to take their pic, dismounted with their face in full view, and an identifying mark such as a reg plate on their bike?
        
        It s not data-gathering, it's warrantless surveillance, and it's supposed to be illegal. Although i suppose you could always claim they are terrorists & get away with anything (apart from extraditing them for trial, obviously)
        
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2. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:41 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: Hmm...
  
  Well maybe the townies should stop bitching about foxes killing / injuring kids....after all they are lovely cuddlly wuddly creatures that do no harm and should be hugged and loved.
  
  What many animal do gooders forget is what are the alternatives?
  
  Poison? indiscriminate, will kill most other carnivorousness animals as well, good answer that.
  
  Bio weapon? Well,that worked well with rabbits didn't it?
  
  Shooting, you have to be a bloody good shot to kill a fox (usually moving), at any sort of distance, with a single shot. Usually you will injure it, where it will limp off and die of blood loss / starvation or have to wait until the landowner arrives to finish it off.
  
  Hunting isn't great, but at least when the hounds do catch it, it's over very bloody quickly
  
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  1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 15:48 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Re: Hmm...
    
    I'm now a "Townie" but grew up in the Wharfe Valley, my friends had farms, I helped with lamming, etc. We lived in a valley where there are no hunts, the farmers wouldn't tolerate it. We also lived in a valley where there is not a fox problem.
    
    Some people may be under the impression that the fox is a cuddly little critter, but many people are of the opinion that even if it is a predator, it's neither acceptable nor efficient in any way to get a bunch of toffs on horseback to chase it with dogs and rip it to pieces. Most hunts meet rarely, they'll sometimes not even find a fox, mostly only find one. A skilled farmer knows where he can place poisoned food so that a fox will find it, he also knows where to shoot it from.
    
    Oh and don't give me the "it's all over quickly" bollocks, because it's just that, absolute bollocks well over half the time.
    
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    1. Saturday 6th April 2013 13:03 GMT Matt Bryant
      
      Re: Hmm...
      
      "......A skilled farmer knows where he can place poisoned food so that a fox will find it....." Exactly the same place an otter or badger will find it, or a domestic cat or dog. I too grew up in the countryside and lost pets to and saw wild animals killed by poison, so you can stop that claptrap, thanks.
      
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  2. Saturday 6th April 2013 12:13 GMT John Angelico
    
    Re: Hmm...shooting?
    
    There would be restrictions on shooting within close range of populated areas.
    
    In Aus, fox are classed as introduced vermin, they are still predatory, and yes it takes a good shot to bring one down. They manage to slyly dodge Rule 303.
    
    The best foxes I've seen are the road kill - thoroughly dead. (This leads to regular references to Ruddigore "pass the fox, gentlemen? Yes, that's unanimous.")
    
    For now, it is the most frequent method of disposal, as it happens that we currently don't have any bounty on them.
    
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Tuesday 2nd April 2013 10:07 GMT Destroy All Monsters

"With cattle trucks lying in wait ... for the next time" (Pink Floyd)

> film of Australian cattle being treated inhumanely

That would be inbovinely, shurely?

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1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:22 GMT Fred Flintstone
  
  Re: "With cattle trucks lying in wait ... for the next time" (Pink Floyd)
  
  That would be inbovinely, shurely?
  
  Hahaha. You guys kill me. Oh, wait ..
  
  0 0
Tuesday 2nd April 2013 10:23 GMT The BigYin

I was kinda with them up to...

"[Pearson] said farmers with nothing to hide have nothing to fear".

And that's where he fails - hard. We can get into a debate about where the suffering of an animal trumps one's right to privacy (and I tend to agree with that) but the ALA does not have a societal mandate to determine when this should apply. We have courts etc for this.

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Tuesday 2nd April 2013 10:47 GMT Crisp

What exactly are Animal Liberation Australia doing to help?

If they really cared about these animals, then they would have boots on the ground helping these farmers.

Instead, they are trying to gather evidence for litigation. How is that helping?

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Tuesday 2nd April 2013 11:24 GMT Anonymous Coward

Animal Liberation Down Under

Yawn! What a ridiculous non-story.

These extremists will say anything to get on TV.

They should get back into some real AL action such as campaigning for a pigeon racing ban.

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1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 11:35 GMT Tom 7
  
  Re: Animal Liberation Down Under
  
  There is a campaign at the moment about racing pigeon treatment - they do seem to love flying them over the channel even though they often lose most of them.
  
  0 0
  1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 14:16 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Re: Animal Liberation Down Under
    
    > they often lose most of them.
    
    Too right, if someone tried to race me over the channel I wouldn't go home again either.
    
    1 0
    1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 15:37 GMT lglethal
      
      Re: Animal Liberation Down Under
      
      It depends where they drop you off. I mean if someone dropped me off in Blackpool I'd be winging my way back across the channel before youl could say "blimey". Mind you I wouldnt necessarily be flying back to the bastard who dropped me off in Blackpool.
      
      Except maybe to crap on his windscreen a few times!
      
      1 0
Tuesday 2nd April 2013 11:24 GMT taxman

They know something's happening

or they must do. These things have a flight time of less than 30 mins. So unless they are already watching some 'mis-behaviour' with a video cam with a fine LF lens what's the point. Unless it's to get another view point.

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Tuesday 2nd April 2013 12:00 GMT NomNomNom

this will only provoke north korea more

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1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:04 GMT Destroy All Monsters
  
  Fetchez la vache.
  
  뭐라구??
  
  FETCHEZ LA VACHE!!
  
  1 1
  1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:23 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Seulement la vache qui rit, surely?
    
    :)
    
    1 0
    1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:33 GMT Destroy All Monsters
      
      The vache of Louis de Lombard doesn't rit, Monsieur!
      
      1 1
2. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:26 GMT Crisp
  
  Almost anything
  
  will provoke North Korea more.
  
  0 0
Tuesday 2nd April 2013 12:06 GMT DrXym

Farmers should welcome this measure

I'm sure they get bored shooting at rabbits all day and could do with the target practice.

2 1
Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:22 GMT mark 63

"It sounds like a flock of blowflies"

Only in aus would you "hear" a flock of flies .

3 0
1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 14:05 GMT Destroy All Monsters
  
  Only in Australia: The country tries to kill you while the Animal Liberation Front is looking after your cattle.
  
  5 1
  1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 15:42 GMT Destroy All Monsters
    
    ...and then you get downvoted, too!
    
    1 1
Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:25 GMT Roger Jenkins

Small farms

Not all animal farms in Australia are huge places.

Where I live there a many small acreages 10- 100, mainly run by hobby farmers.

These would be prime targets.

During drought time many of these places are just too damned small to support the amount of livestock on them, the owners are always waiting for rain tomorrow, they don't often buy in feed, they don't sell because prices are low.

The animal welfare mob could stop their ute in the road, fire up the helicopter and send it to take photo's, then take appropriate action.

I can't see this device being used with cattle stations as the target. I can see them using it on small acreages and there are thousands of them.

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1. Wednesday 3rd April 2013 10:34 GMT Intractable Potsherd
  
  Re: Small farms
  
  That makes it alright, then ...
  
  Oh, wait ...
  
  1 0
Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:32 GMT Anonymous Coward

I really get annoyed with radical animal-rights people

and so are a lot of farmers I know.

Let me get something straight immediately. I am not against animals being treated with an appropriate amount of respect, but lets face it, even the best farmers suffer livestock losses. Animals sometime do just keel over in the fields for no previously obvious reason. Even in the Archers (recent story line, Pip Archer did not check properly, and a ewe and two lambs died).

I used to farm-sit for my father-in-law on occasion so he could have a break. One day, after moving one part of his flock of sheep in the morning to a field with plenty of water, grass and shade for the day, I went to check and move them back mid-afternoon (about six hours later).

I found two sheep dead. And what had they died of? Over eating. Both of them had eaten too much clover, and had suffered ruptured stomachs.

I know, clover is renowned for this, but seriously, how stupid are sheep! I know that I will never make a farmer, but I did diligent checking and they still keeled over.

In the UK, all you need is for somebody to come along at the wrong time and see a dead sheep in a field, and report it to the RSPCA, and the farmer could be in deep trouble almost immediately. It is not possible to watch sizeable flocks all the time.

Sometimes, the animal rights people look more like a 'ban all animal use for human benefit'. This seems especially the case when they threaten violence to people to improve animal welfare. Maybe they have to be reminded that people are animals too!

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1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 15:49 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: I really get annoyed with radical animal-rights people
  
  "I know, clover is renowned for this, but seriously, how stupid are sheep!"
  
  Well, I don't know about sheep, but the astronomer Tycho Brahe refused to leave a party to pee (it would have been impolitic), thereby rupturing his bladder and poisoning himself. He died in agony a week later.
  
  So, who knows - those sheep might have been brilliant, but just a bit lacking in foresight.
  
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  1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 17:50 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Re: I really get annoyed with radical animal-rights people
    
    those sheep might have been brilliant
    
    They must have been to know astronomy.
    
    Umm, I think I lost the thread somewhere (confused)..
    
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    1. Wednesday 3rd April 2013 00:13 GMT John Brown (no body)
      
      Re: I really get annoyed with radical animal-rights people
      
      Umm, I think I lost the thread somewhere (confused).."
      
      I suspect, since the topic is woolly sheep, that's a not a thread you are looking for. It's a ripping yarn.
      
      Yeah, the one coated in lanolin, thanks.
      
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2. Wednesday 3rd April 2013 12:46 GMT Tom 7
  
  Re: I really get annoyed with radical animal-rights people
  
  If you had done diligent checking you would have found live bloated sheep and cured them.
  
  That's not to say they dont drop dead even with diligent checking but 6 hours after moving them???
  
  0 2
  1. Wednesday 3rd April 2013 15:34 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Re: I really get annoyed with radical animal-rights people
    
    You ever tried to look after 400+ sheep spread over 30 acres of Devon hillside? It used to take about an hour to walk around all of the fields, checking that there were none stuck in the hedges or fences or out on the road.
    
    Checking on sheep twice a day appears to be the norm for most farmers. Normally early in the morning and late in the afternoon, so that you can do something useful in between.
    
    Even if I had found them, I'm not really sure what I would have done. Probably tried to get them into another field, and chase them around a bit to try to get rid of the bloat. As I say, I probably would not make it as a farmer, and I'm afraid I can't get a border collie doing it for me.
    
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  2. Saturday 6th April 2013 13:27 GMT Matt Bryant
    
    Re: I really get annoyed with radical animal-rights people
    
    ".....6 hours after moving them???...." Gee, I'm guessing you're a townie, as you seem to know SFA about farming. There happens to be quite a bit to do even on a small-holding (even more with the added red-tape and paperwork insisted on by townie civil servants). My neighbour used to be working 5am and rarely finished before 7pm, and that was with two teenage sons to help him in the hours before and after school. And yes, animals were often left unattended in fields for most of the day. I love the countryside but I would not consider being a famer as it is just far too much hard work. If you don't believe me then I would recommend you take a holiday and volunteer on a farm for a fortnight, it would seriously remove the political blinkers.
    
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3. Saturday 6th April 2013 12:58 GMT Matt Bryant
  
  Re: I really get annoyed with radical animal-rights people
  
  ".....the animal rights people look more like a 'ban all animal use for human benefit'....." The whole Animal Liberation trip has nothing to do with animal rights and all to do with continuing outdated class-war beliefs. For them, farmers = landowners = The Rich, regardless of whether the farmer is a smallholder. Nothing exposes this sham more than how these "Animal Rights" proponents often happily wear leather clothes and shoes but then complain about (rich) people wearing fur or farms that have the very livestock their leather comes from.
  
  1 0
Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:53 GMT Sparks

" farmers with nothing to hide have nothing to fear"

Dunno about farmers, but everyone else in the world has plenty to hide and with damn good reason. Your PIN, your credit card number and security code, your wife's favorite sexual position, etc, etc, etc. Privacy exists for a damn good reason.

Besides, if this Animal Liberation lot are the local branch of this happy bunch ( http://www.directaction.info/index.htm ) then they deserve locking up, not being allowed fly surveillance drones. Seriously, any group that needs seperate icons for Arson, Sabotage and Vandalism (to say nothing of "Liberation" - meaning the release of non-native apex predators into an unprepared ecosystem which they then devastate) on their webpages is really one that the local police ought to be looking at with surveillance drones...

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Tuesday 2nd April 2013 13:56 GMT SteveB299

Daily Mail

Since when was this forum bought out by The Daily Mail!?

Any mention of animal rights or the environment seems to precipitate the type of response you'd expect from "Disgusted, Chipping Sodbury."

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1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 14:06 GMT Destroy All Monsters
  
  Re: Daily Mail
  
  Are you some kind of leftist?
  
  2 2
  1. Tuesday 2nd April 2013 14:54 GMT SteveB299
    
    Re: Daily Mail
    
    Leftist, eh!?
    
    It appears that American, religious right rhetoric is becoming more commonplace in the UK. If you care about our global life support system (ie. the environment) then you must be some kind of atheist leftist, as God is the only person with his hand on Earth's thermostat and therefore able to make changes.
    
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