back to article Belgian finds missus was born a MAN after 19 YEARS of marriage

A somewhat upset Belgian has recounted how he discovered his Indonesian missus was actually a born a bloke, but only after after 19 years of wedlock during which the couple enjoyed normal sexual relations. The 64-year-old hubby, named only as "Jan", fell for Monica, 48, when she was working as an au pair for his sister and …

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FAIL

As a post op...

...I was all ready to slate the article, based on the title, but I've got to admit that while, in everyday life, I don't care to uncover my past, unless it suits me to do so ... when it comes to intimate and long term relations I think it would be irrisponsible for me not to disclose to a potential future partner.

I wouldn't want to live with a bloke that was more focussed on my legs than my personality anyway. It's as much a safety net for me as for him. If I tell him and he throws up, then that's not the bloke for me. :-)

Incidentally, I've had a few good relationships; they were fun and amicable ... and I swear I didn't kill him for his money!

Flame suit donned, let me have it, pasta meatball jokes and all, I've heard it all before!

Anyone for tennis?

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Happy

Re: As a post op...

Have an upvote for being a wonderful and honest person.

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Re: As a post op...

@Michelle:

I agree overall, but I think the issue that's done for them is more general - ie if you keep secrets from your partner about significant aspects of your past, they may well bite you on the arse later on. Whether the secret is "I'm a post op transexxual", "I'm separated and it was a nasty split", "I've got kids" or something else again doesn't really matter - the key is being honest with the person who shares your life about the events that have had an impact on your life.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: As a post op...

@CaptainUnderpants - I agree, and I also agree with JeeBee. This one was a right old mess.

She was cheating on him, he was violent with her, there is a fair chance that her documents were forged, blah, blah, very messy, pass the lawyers please.

There is more that has shaped my life than just being post-op. I'll keep quiet about the international late night TV shows I've been on when times have got tough, (which is probably why I'm not so backward about coming forward these days) but, honest guv, it is still hard for women in IT even in so called developed countries these days. It has taken managers with vision to give me the chances that I've had; and I'd like to say that I've, ahem, "performed" for them ... um ... let me rephrase that ... done a good job ... um ... er ... oh fuck it, you know what I mean.

I have faced changes of managers who have wanted to get rid of me purely for being post-op, but fortunately the customers have liked the work I've done and wanted me kept on, but eventually I've always lost the war, where these kinds of battles are fought.

There is so much about my past that makes me, me, that it WOULD be ridiculous to try and keep it hidden. All I can hope for is what I started when in the '90s I joined those standing up to say, "There's more of us here than you think." and get society to wake up to the fact that Mother Nature is not all black and white and likes a good joke as much as the next fictional being.

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Re: As a post op...

"pasta meatball jokes and all"

Would this put me off Italian food if I asked you to elaborate? :)

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Joke

Re: As a post op...

A man was on holiday in Spain. He went in to a restaraunt and was perusing the menu when he saw the wiater take a plate of pasts and large meatballs to another customer. "That looks interesting," he thought. "I'll order that." So he calls over the waiter and receives the explanation that the balls are the testicles of the bulls as they are slaughtered at the bull fighting arena. Undeterred, the man orders a platefull and enjoys it.

A few days later, he felt that he would like to have another dish of balls and pasta, so he returns to the restaraunt and orders the same meal. This time, when the plate came, the balls were the size of golf balls. He nevertheless ate the meal and decided to complain after he had eaten. With his stomach full, feeling there was no way he could come out of this as a looser, he called the waiter over to complain at being so short changed in his meal. "Ah, but you see, senior, sometimes the bull wins."

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Anonymous Coward

Re: As a post op...

I forgot to add all the glamour of the bull testicles being a powerful aphrodisiac and all the rest of the trimmings, but the 5 mins editing wasn't enough! Also, I had problems typing a Spanish accent. Ok, I'll own up, I have problems typing anyway!

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Re: As a post op...

I was going to post something similar about how you can't have a relationship with such a secret. You put it pretty much how I'd have too, it's your secret (and hers) to keep and even myself I have secrets I wouldn't just blab around to anyone. However, if I got close to someone to the point this guy (I use the term loosely) there are some secrets that have to be shared.

Unfortunately this moron couldn't see past it and resorted to violence and perhaps more unfortunately I don't think I could. I have nothing about transgender people but I know I couldn't be with someone who had been that route. I wouldn't have resorted to violence, I'm not a violent person unless you count shouting at computers and occassionally threatening them.

Be gentle with the downvotes, I chose to be honest.

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Re: As a post op...

Excellent post.

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Stop

I would hazard a guess that this lady might have been born physically a man, but was totally female gender, hence the sex swap op. It was probably a very distressing thing for the person to go through, and the eventual aim is to physically become what you feel you are.

The bloke should just get on with the divorce for the cheating, and remember that he had quite a few happy years with her and that her birth sex is irrelevant - unless he had expressed a wish to have more children - and even then she could simply say that she was infertile rather than go into details of the past.

I also note that the bloke was violent, so let's not all start feeling sorry for a perpetrator of domestic abuse, eh?

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Anonymous Coward

Where did it say he was violent? or mention domestic abuse?

all I see is a man angry his wife is cheating on him and then finding out she lied about being a woman, she was born a man and that is a BIG secret to keep from your husband!

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Sorry but what rubbish, this is not a small secret ITS A FECKING MASSIVE SECRET!, Jesus its not like running up some credit card debt, its, not only are you cheating on me, but your were born a man! My god are flesh crawingly awful!

I bet if it happened to you, you wouldn't be so PC about it!

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IT Angle

Hand on heart, it wouldn't faze me in the slightest. What has someone's sex got to do with whether you love them or not?

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@AC 11:29

RE: Domestic abuse. From the husband's own comments as quoted in the article: "That evening came to blows. The police came."

@El_Fev

" My god are flesh crawingly awful! I bet if it happened to you, you wouldn't be so PC about it!"

I'm pretty sure that if my partner were to confess to me that she was born biologically male but had gender reassignment surgery after realising that she identified as female, it would neither magically invalidate the bond and history we share nor would it somehow go back in time and retroactively wreck our sex life.

Try reminding yourself that trans people are people first, trans second, and exercise some compassion. Trans people, like anyone who doesn't conform to society's views of what is normal and/or normative, are forced to put up with enough prejudice and total bullshit on a regular basis without the usual Dude Problems Representative turning up to explain how the real problem is that they almost had to confront some part of their own complex sexuality over which they're in denial. The world is a wonderfully diverse and complicated place. Stop trying to make it conform to some infantile and reductive model you've got just because you're scared of things that are Different To What You Know.

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For me it wouldnt be the op it but the lies that would affect me the most.

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Anonymous Coward

Relationships and stereotype imposition.

I can't help but wonder what Facebook would make of their relationship page...

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Coat

Re: Relationships and stereotype imposition.

...It's complicated

ofc :)

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Lies?

In your hypothetical situation, why would there have to have been lies?

It would be quite possible to avoid lies, and just allow the partner to make assumpitions.

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Re: Lies?

A lie of omission is a lie all the same.

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Anonymous Coward

"the eventual aim is to physically become what you feel you are"

I feel like superman!

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Anonymous Coward

"What has someone's sex got to do with whether you love them or not?"

It depends on the kind of love. But, to heck with family. May the state raise your offspring and may they be all transnutered. Ops, I meant transgendered. Snicker...

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Anonymous Coward

"For me it wouldnt be the op it but the lies that would affect me the most."

This here! Danny, you are a wise man... umm... living thing.

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It was a big old mess

This is why you must be sure that the girl is pure for the Funky Cold Medina.

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Unhappy

Re: It was a big old mess

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you are on about. I've googled "Funky Cold Medina" - it's a song or a drink. "pure for" it? Nope. Sorry. Lost without translation.

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Re: It was a big old mess

He's referring to the song by Tone Loc, which in turn references a mythical drink with aphrodisiac effects. In the song, indescriminate use of the drink leads to hijinks which at one point involve a dog.

What I believe the poster above you was referring to in particular, is the verse that includes the line;

"But when she got undressed it was a big old mess; Sheena was a man."

It's not clear from the context whether Sheena was a transvestite or a pre-op transexual, but either way Mr Loc made his excuses and left. And I quote; "This is the 80s and I'm down wit da ladies!"

He later goes on to explain that the episode taught him a valuable lesson about not dosing his dates with what amounts to a sophisticated date-rape drug, while nevertheless remaining a blissfully unreconstructed 1980s stereotype.

I hope this helps.

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Re: It was a big old mess

Cleared that one up, thanks! I seem to be hopelessly unhip. :(

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@Mako Re: It was a big old mess

Upvoted for imagining your post delivered in the voice of that inestimable gentleman's gentleman, Reginald Jeeves.

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Thanks, Mako.

What was once a whimsical recounting of one man's sexual misadventures, will now be forever heard as the disturbing story of a would-be-rapist, stalking around bars in search of his next victim. Thanks a lot.

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Coat

I cannot believe its not butter...

It seemed to have worked for (s)him :D

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Hear, hear!

The tone of the comments is a good deal more measured than the tone of the article. Go commentards!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Hear, hear!

Don't worry - normal service will resume following the next Apple/Android article.

Oh- you mean this wasn't a complaint?

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Happy

Most people have to hate something.

Most people here are to busy hating particular tech companies to have time for trivialities like what gender someone is/was/willbe.

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Anonymous Coward

I bet

its a sad world we live in when people cant be honest with each other....

I bet he felt a right dick though.....

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I bet he felt a right dick though.....

Actually he didn't, which was rather the point I thought.

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Anonymous Coward

Does ? have a Y chromosome ?

If so then still a man.

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Boffin

Re: Does ? have a Y chromosome ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_Insensitivity_Syndrome says differently.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Does ? have a Y chromosome ?

So you're saying that that woman in Serbia who gave birth to several healthy children is actually a man, just because she's genetically XY? Apparently doctors are now recommending the mothers of all women with Swyer syndrome be tested as they suspect there may be a lot of fertile XY females.

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Re: Does ? have a Y chromosome ?

X/Y, male/female is not the binary choice you think it is. As with EVERYTHING you were taught as a child, it's just not true, genetically, mentally, or even in the heads of others.

There are numerous "intersex" conditions, there are many (sometimes conflicting) genetic markers, and no one marker is enough to determine a binary answer. Hell, when it comes to sportswomen in the pre-Olympics news, it's almost impossible to say that they were 100% born a woman or a man, for example.

You were taught biology by the age-old precept of "lies to children". In the same way that Pluto isn't a planet, chameleons don't change colour, Newton wasn't hit by an apple (but close!), brontosaurus never were, most bee species don't gather honey or even live together and atoms are not "the smallest thing" by a long-shot, the X/Y chromosome thing is, although correlated, not definitive on the issue of gender. And we don't just mean you can be a little effeminate/masculine if other things are tweaked but that you can be the polar opposite of what gender your X/Y dictates and healthy and reproductive and "normal" (whatever that means in this context).

Hell, it's not unheard of (or even that rare) for humans to grow feathers or horns, so saying that someone's DNA will indisputably give you a binary "sex" is so wrong as to be ridiculous. And exactly the kind of prejudice that forces people to hide "secrets" like this - this is what makes people bring up their child to "be a man" when they have deformed genitalia and are actually female, and then people wonder why they rebel later and actually turn out to live a "homosexual" life (because it's not, to them, biologically speaking!). This is exactly the kind of thing that make some intersex / confused / deformed / not accepted children who would have lead a perfectly happy life were it not for other people to commit suicide and similar.

My girlfriend works as a genetic scientist and if you have a relative with cancer in the London area she's probably the one who did the labwork to determine whether it was cancer or not, along with a range of other genetic ailments. She will happily tell you that you can get perfectly everyday samples where it's actually almost impossible to tell the sex of the patient from the DNA alone, or that you can find female patients who have no history of gender reassignment who have certain parts of "male" DNA. It's a handy guideline and nothing more.

And drawing a line in the sand between male and female is no more ridiculous than drawing a line in the sand between good and evil. There are clearly people on both sides, and clearly people who should be in one category or the other at some time in their lives, but there's no way to definitively categorises people binarily without coming up against something that will really stretch your credibility to pigeonhole.

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Anonymous Coward

Obviously not a "real" woman.

"after after 19 years of wedlock during which the couple enjoyed normal sexual relations."

19!!

Years!!

Sexual relations!!

<sobs>

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Terminator

Is this an Autobot or Decepticon Transgender

Wow - Lester, it seems that some people don't like this boot note.

I first read this on Digital Spy in the Odd news section and almost sent this to El Reg's news room (glad I didn;t, I can't handle the down votes, they make me cry)

This piece isn't offensive or disrespectful, it is what it is. In this world of cyber sex and troll posting this is just the human side of things. Most people wouldn't want to find out that their partner is not all they seem, unless they are married to their car and it turns out to be a transformer. Been marred to a transformer would be cool, although some people wouldn't understand why you are married to a ten foot tall robot. If I found out my partner was a man then I would also be angry and hurt and upset. However if they were actually a sleek and sexy transforming robot then I wouldn't be as angry.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is this an Autobot or Decepticon Transgender

10 foot tall? Is that all? That's pathetic. Optimus Prime, now that's a beefy man-bot for you. He can stick his hot exhaust pipe up my muffler any time.

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Re: Is this an Autobot or Decepticon Transgender

@ukgnome

"If I found out my partner was a man then I would also be angry and hurt and upset."

It may help to stop for a second, ensure you've engaged your brain and try thinking about it again.

1) You wouldn't be "finding out your partner was a man", you would be finding out that your partner was at birth biologically male and subsequently had gender reassignment surgery as she identified as female. "Finding out your partner was a man" suggests some sort of ridiculous contrivance involving having the Male Danglies tucked away just so, rather than actual surgery and possibly counselling to try and understand what's happening.

2) The issue here appears (despite Lester's choice of focus in the article) to be that the discovery happened through the husband discovering that his wife was cheating on him. I would imagine that the bigger shock, and more likely cause for ending the marriage, is the infidelity - but there are many who simply cannot get past infantile and simplistic notions of biology and gender identity to reconcile the person they fell in love with and married with the imaginary person they now imagine that partner to have originally been.

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Re: Is this an Autobot or Decepticon Transgender

@captain underpants

Right, brain engaged - but unfortunately the cold hard logic part of the brain that deals with science and stuff and not the emotional part of the brain that screams lies all lies

1. No, my partner would still be a man, no matter what their outward appearance is. This is not a case of if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

2. Not just Lester's choice of focus in the article but the focus of every journalist that has covered this case. But that's what journo's do. Otherwise were is the story? Shocker as Belgian mans marriage fails after reading txt.

"But there are many who simply cannot get past infantile and simplistic notions"

Welcome to planet earth!

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FAIL

Re: Is this an Autobot or Decepticon Transgender

I think you need to engage your brain!

Just because you have had some bits chopped off, does not change the fact that you were born a man, and you are still a man , no matter what the courts may say on the matter, I suggest you get back to reading the guardian!

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Re: Is this an Autobot or Decepticon Transgender

@ukgnome + El_Fev

Do some reading on gender identity and conditions like Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, and try very very hard to realise that the world is more diverse and complicated than is allowed for in the reductive model you had inculcated into you as a five-year-old, and perhaps you can understand why "what bits I had between my thighs at birth" or "do I have a Y chromosome" are not particularly good ways of understanding someone's gender identity.

Alternatively, accept that it's your problem of being unable to deal with gender identity that is the issue here, not the existence of trans individuals.

TL, DR: The problem is not trans people, the problem is you thinking like a bellend.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is this an Autobot or Decepticon Transgender

"1. No, my partner would still be a man, no matter what their outward appearance is..."

Some women think I'm still a man, other women think I'm a woman, some men think I'm a man and other men think I'm a woman.

Bottom line ... does it matter to me whether people think I'm a man or a woman? No.

Does it matter to me that some people are so short sighted about life that what I've got or had between my legs can grant them a legitimate excuse to treat me in anyting other than a professional and civil manner, or think is acceptable to deny me a job, or leave me out of the round of drinks at the bar? To damn right.

I do wonder at some people's priorities.

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Unhappy

Re: Is this an Autobot or Decepticon Transgender

Exactly so, Michelle.

I worked for several years with a woman who made the mistake of telling the wrong person she had had gender reassignment surgery. Other women in the company then attempted to prohibit her the ladies' lavatories... I don't recall how it all ended up except that she felt forced to leave the company.

This is not the behaviour of civilised people.

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Re: Is this an Autobot or Decepticon Transgender

Sex and gender are different things.

You may physically be male (male sex), but your gender can be different.

If you are a female in the head, and you have the male bits chopped off to become female on the outside, what does that make you?

People who have gone through this very stressful, traumatic reassignment don't do it for giggles. They do it to become physically what they are mentally.

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Re: Is this an Autobot or Decepticon Transgender

"They do it to become physically what they are mentally"

But for some men this doesn't change the fact that their partner has an X and a Y chromosome, if this hasn't been disclosed then you have every right to be very pissed off.

Try to leave emotion out of debates like this as it has clouded your scientific minds.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is this an Autobot or Decepticon Transgender

@ukgnome - People have already been trying to tell you about the science of chromosones. They don't actually mean a whole load of beans. Just look at the figures and ... if you can actually be bothered to see beyond the simple matter of xx xy then there are some other statistics in there that should make you think twice about your position - http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

Including this one - "Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births"

Just drop the chromosone thing. You're barking up a tree branch and ignoring the trunk.

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