back to article Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid car review

Extended electric-only driving range has been a long time coming to hybrid cars but with the arrival of the Vauxhall Ampera and now Toyota’s Prius Plug-in the breed may finally shake off the reputation of vehicles that only exist because Americans don’t like diesels. Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid car The mains attraction: …

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Ampera

      Love my Ampera but the cold winter does affect battery range. I'm still an electric commute to work though. After several long drives in the summer (including a 300Mile nonstop trip to Cornwall) I'm at 124MPG lifetime over 6600 miles. and before anyone says its too expensive, yes it is not cheap but not any more than replacing my merc with a like for like, and I'm making large fuel savings as a result, in fact spending an extra 10k upfront will payback more than leaving the money in a bank.

      1. Ben Rose

        Re: Ampera

        It's too expensive.

        It cost no more than replacing your Merc with a like for like. There's a reason for that. 1) It's not like for like 2) It's not a Merc.

        It's way too expensive and costs massively more than similar alternatives. You're also dreaming on the MPG front. If you plug it in every day and only do a few miles, you could claim an infinite mpg if you like - that would be similarly pointless. The Ampera will NEVER go one hundred miles on a single gallon of fuel, even on a full charge. Neither will this Prius. I find the mpg figures for plug-in cars to be utterly misleading.

        You reckon the extra £10k is better in the car than in the bank? Wrong, it would be better in the bank buying fuel for a significantly cheaper alternative.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Ampera

          Yup! Better in the car see this.

          I make that £15,118 in 5 years compared to £12,762 at 5% compound (can you do better?)

          (assumes £1.40 per litre for next 5 years).

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Ampera

      No, they don't. The Ampera is a workaround for the Toyota patents. And there are resources on the Internet if you google for them that will explain just how clever the Toyota hybrid drive is. This is a car with no gearbox and a clutch that is only there for towing. It is also mechanically remarkably simple.

      I bought a Mk II Prius because I went off Diesels. The dual-clutch automatic system is potentially very expensive (mine went wrong under warranty and the garage told me that the non-warranty cost of the repair was around £3400). Modern high pressure turbo motors can blow very expensively due to something as simple as an oil like in the compressor. It is a very expensive way to get efficiency, whereas the Toyota design uses a normally aspirated engine running with very low stresses, so it is very unlikely to develop expensive faults.

      I won't be in the market for the new hybrid simply because the existing one does everything I need very economically and I see no obvious reason to replace it. The saving on fuel just isn't worth the depreciation of buying a new car.

      As for expensive - as far as I can see it is cheaper than an equivalent BMW Diesel, which figures (the automated gearbox alone costs more than the Prius battery and an electric motor or two).

      1. Stacy
        FAIL

        Re: Ampera

        OK- double clutch gearboxes are expensive and I hope mine never breaks.

        But how much do you think the CVT transmisson of the Prius (is deos have one, the engine is not connected directly to the wheels) will cost to replace if it dies? Or the batteries? Or the regenerative braking system? Or the logic board that controls it all? Or the large LCD display? Or any other of the systems that your Diesel car didn't have?

        Cars cost money when they break - don't think that the Prius is a simple 'mechano' car that has nothing to go wrong on you - I don't think it could be further from the truth!

        1. Ben Rose

          Re: Ampera

          But how much do you think the CVT transmisson of the Prius (is deos have one, the engine is not connected directly to the wheels) will cost to replace if it dies?

          Pretty cheap, that's why CVT boxes were developed in the first place. They don't have separate gears like a conventional gearbox and therefore less moving parts required.

          > Or the batteries?

          Last the lifetime of the car.

          Or the regenerative braking system?

          They call that an alternator on most cars. Most modern diesels also have regenerative braking to recharge the stop/start system.

          >Or the logic board that controls it all?

          Clutching at straws? All vehicles have an ECU.

          >Or the large LCD display?

          Any car with sat nav has one of these.

          >Or any other of the systems that your Diesel car didn't have?

          It actually has much less. Modern diesel have many systems not fitted to standard petrol cars such as turbos, SCR and bigger catalytic converters.

          >Cars cost money when they break - don't think that the Prius is a simple 'mechano' car that has nothing to go >wrong on you - I don't think it could be further from the truth!

          It is one of the most reliable cars ever built and Toyota have less faults with them than anything else they've ever sold. Reliability is a genuine benefit here.

        2. TeeCee Gold badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Ampera

          "Pretty cheap, that's why CVT boxes were developed in the first place."

          Even better in fact, as the Prius does not have a CVT in the conventional sense. It uses an epicyclic transmission, effectively a differential, with fixed gearing between the components. Variation of engine to wheel speed is accomplished by biasing power from the engine, via the planet gear carrier, to the annulus (final drive) or sun gear (generator). This is achieved by varying the torque (or countertorque) applied at the sun gear.

          A total of 26 moving parts IIRC, of which the only ones even remotely likely to fail are the two motor/generators and the parking pawl system, the remainder being large helical gears and various bearings, which outlast the car in most applications. Where you would be really stuffed would be were the electronics to pack it in. Then again, that holds true of any modern vehicle.

          As for fixing it, take a look at one. It's without a doubt the simplest automotive transmission ever made. The fact that it's electronically controlled may scare people, but mechanically it's a doddle.

          Incidently, see what happens to your modern diesel when the ECU controlling the HP pump gives up. Or the one running the fuel injectors. Or the one running the emission control system. Or the one handling the instrumentation and diagnostics (special mention to Ford for their legendary dash ECU failure woes here)........

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            @ Those talking about dual clutch automatics...

            why? I mean, just why?

            It does result in faster gear changes than a manual box but it's only really worth the extra expense and weight in a very high-performance sports car.

            Anywhere else you'd be better off saving weight and improving some other part of the engine for better efficiency/performance.

            Unless you're one of those strangely stunted people who seem to regard changing gear as being too complicated for them to handle?

            1. Stacy

              Re: @ Those talking about dual clutch automatics...

              Because the gear change is oh so smooth! Speed? Nah, not really - quicker than all other automatics than I have driven, but seeing as they are controlled to look after the engine I would think that a snap change in a manual would be better. Much worse for the drive train, but quicker.

              But the manual V70 is not as much fun to drive, scratch that. It's not as pleasant to drive, it probably is more fun...

              My dad, who hates automatic gear boxes, even likes the ride in the V70 due to the gearbox (I'm pleased to say, it being a nice place to make a journey was one of the top reasons I brought it).

              @Ben Rose

              As for clutching at straws for the parts... Personally I think you are doing the same. You're gearbox broke. It was expensive to fix. You had bad luck, but it was fixed under guarantee. My power steering pump broke in my last car - it cost nearly a 1000 including labour to replace (Volvo rates...) Does that mean I should never buy a car with power steering again. I just think that if you have the bad luck for part of that hybrid system to break you are also going to be looking at serious cash to fix. The same as *any* other modern car.

              1. Ben Rose
                FAIL

                Re: @ Those talking about dual clutch automatics...

                Stacy,

                I don't even know where to begin but, to start with, I've never owned a dual-clutch car and certainly not had one break on me.

                I have driven a few though, from little SEATs to rather pokey Audi R8 V10s. I'm a motoring journalist, see, but I clearly will never know as much as your dad. LOL

                1. This post has been deleted by its author

  1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Coat

    Handy for sneaking up on people

    And generally stalking people

    Just saying.

  2. Steve Button Silver badge

    Why don't they make the cable lockable?

    It would be so simple to make it so you plug in (deeper inside) then close the flap then lock it (with a small notch to allow the cable to poke through). Would help to stop people nicking the cable.

    1. dkjd

      Re: Why don't they make the cable lockable?

      I guess that its so the fire brigade can pull the cable out if the car catches fire, or there is any other sort of electrical fault requiring emergency services to disconnect the power in a hurry?

      1. Lee Dowling Silver badge

        Re: Why don't they make the cable lockable?

        If the car catches fire, why would you approach the car rather than whatever the other end of the cable is plugged into, which will have a nice "off" switch away from the burning vehicle?

    2. Ben Rose

      Re: Why don't they make the cable lockable?

      Cables generally don't lock on to allow other EV owners to use the charging cable if your charging is completed long before you return to your vehicle.

      If you parked at a petrol pump, filled up and then left your car there with the nozzle in the fuel tank whilst you went shopping; that wouldn't be popular either.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why don't they make the cable lockable?

        How about thinking outside the box?

        Maybe make the standard cable that comes with the car lockable by closing the flap (it can always be unplugged the other end) and one at a communal top up station larger which doesn't allow for closing the flap?

        Not too hard so I can't see that being the reason.

        1. Ben Rose

          Re: Why don't they make the cable lockable?

          "Maybe make the standard cable that comes with the car lockable by closing the flap (it can always be unplugged the other end) and one at a communal top up station larger which doesn't allow for closing the flap?

          Not too hard so I can't see that being the reason."

          Any owner who used one full-time (not a magazine reviewer) would have a dedicated charging point installed in their home. Most of these allow the cable to be locked at the premises end to prevent theft.

          The reviewer used an extension cable (not recommend my mnfr) which meant the domestic end of the plug was likely outside his premises and insecure.

        2. TeeCee Gold badge

          Re: Why don't they make the cable lockable?

          How about making it like a vacuum cleaner power lead?

          Pull out to use, retract when done. Pointless to steal......

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Why don't they make the cable lockable?

            "How about making it like a vacuum cleaner power lead? Pull out to use..." And more complicated to replace if it gets damaged.

            Extension lead - I bet it wasn't weatherproof either and he didn't even use an RCD...

  3. MrXavia
    FAIL

    95%... but is is a DAMN ugly car!

    and only 16 miles on electric? really? that is pathetic, not even a commute to work and back for most people..

    I'll stick to my XF Jag, which the tree huggers out there will be glad to know gets a very healthy 62.8MPG, and has less toxic metals being used in its construction than this hybrid...

    I would love to compare the environmental impact of this Prius vs a Jag over a 20 year lifespan

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Lithium is not a toxic metal, and the neodymium used in DC motors is infinitely recyclable, as is the nickel and cerium in the standard Prius. For a fair comparison, you would have to consider their environmental impact over a period of several hundred years. (failure to consider this was just one of the flaws in the notorious Prius-Hummer comparison).

    2. Steve I
      Go

      Wow!

      "XF Jag, which the tree huggers out there will be glad to know gets a very healthy 62.8MPG"

      62Mpg around town! That's very impressive.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Battery

      "not even a commute to work"

      You're missing the point. It's not designed to get you ALL THE WAY to work on the battery, if it's more than 15 miles away. That's what the engine is there for.

      What it does mean is that you can get to your appropriate trunk road or motorway on battery power, then use the engine. The exhaust gases will be released in an area where they are likely to be coped with better and have less of an impact.

      Besides, the top speed on battery is something like 40mph. Once you want to go over that, the engine needs to be started anyway.

  4. Silverburn
    Thumb Down

    Close...but no cigar

    It's just about there...bump the electric range to 60-70, and drop the price to something sensible and it's a deal.

    Right now, it's 10 miles too short and 10 grand too expensive.

    Still waiting for fuel cells though...

    1. Silverburn

      Re: Close...but no cigar

      Additionally...have you seen that display? Good gahd, I could barely understand what it meant after 3 attempts while sat at my desk. A quick glance while driving? I'd have no idea what the vehicle status was!

      1. TRT Silver badge

        Re: Close...but no cigar

        The redesign of the cabin between the Gen 2 and the Gen 3 was a backward step IMHO. With the Gen 2 you could slide from the driver's seat to the passenger's easily. Heck, you could even have a bench seat in the front if you fancied! The display was simple and clear, everything was on the MFD with just 8 mode buttons.

  5. Ben Rose

    49g CO2/km?

    The irony is that the CO2 isn't significantly lower than the non-plugin predecessor, once you take power station emissions into account.

  6. Simon Brown
    Stop

    It's just as well that building these causes no environmental impact whatsoever...

    Is it just me that wonders whether we wouldn't be better off creating kits so that we could retro-fit existing cars, rather than building new ones? Scrapping an existing car to then use up fresh resources to build new ones to reduce CO2 is potty. At the same time, we ban diesel-engined vehicles from our town centres - even if they're powered by pure vegetable oil and creating no harmful emissions...

    Is the hybrid engined car a very expensive example of green-washing?

  7. MGman
    Thumb Down

    For £30k+ couldn't they at least make these hybrids look like a classier car?

  8. MJI Silver badge

    What I find objectionable is

    Why these cars which clog the roads up and damage the road surface just like any other car pay no road tax.

    I think it is obscene.

    Yet a moped has to pay, bloody ridiculous.

    1. thegrouch

      Re: What I find objectionable is

      Yes but road tax has nothing to do with road maintenance.

    2. Ben Rose

      Re: What I find objectionable is

      Road tax is no longer the road usage charge it used to be, this is all been put into fuel duty. They are now using VED purely as an eco tax, to drive people into smaller more efficient vehicles.

      Where it fails is with EVs, which don't buy and fuel and therefore pay no fuel tax. Instead, they increase demand for domestic electricity and make it more expensive for the rest of us.

      1. MJI Silver badge

        Re: What I find objectionable is

        Yes but why do mopeds pay it?

        1. Ben Rose

          Re: What I find objectionable is

          "Yes but why do mopeds pay it?"

          Are they environmentally friendly?

          1. MJI Silver badge

            Re: Are they environmentally friendly?

            Very much so, my last one I had did 200mpg on a bad day back in the 70s

            The 250cc bikes I used for years would do 60mpg being thrashed and 80mpg at 80mph.

            1. Ben Rose

              Re: Are they environmentally friendly?

              "Very much so, my last one I had did 200mpg on a bad day back in the 70s

              The 250cc bikes I used for years would do 60mpg being thrashed and 80mpg at 80mph."

              Being enviromentally friendly isn't at all the same as having a high fuel economy. Common misconception.

              Scooters are noisy because a lot of engine noise is allowed to escape. This is down to the straight through exhaust on the back which has minimal filters, no Catalytic converters etc.

              1. MJI Silver badge

                Re: Are they environmentally friendly?

                But they create very little in pollutants.

                Don't know about scooters (wouldn't touch them) but my 4 stroke moped was pretty clean.

                200mpg on a bad day is what I would call clean, pity it only did about 40

  9. Nev
    FAIL

    Yet more Uk Eco madness...

    Plug-in cars in a country where most electricity is generated by Gas/Coal: FAIL

    Hybrids: An electric car dragging a combustion engine/transmission/fuel tank around

    or a conventional car lugging electric motors and a massive battery pack around: FAIL

    Better idea would be to switch to small, highly tuned turbo petrol solution such as

    FPT's TwinAir, if you want to be eco-minded about your personal transport.

    1. Ben Rose

      Re: Yet more Uk Eco madness...

      If only the TwinAir delivered anything like it's claimed economy in practice.

      Agree with your first point, but hybrids do generally make things more efficient. In the case of the Prius anyway, the Ampera doesn't work too good in this area.

    2. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

      Re: Yet more Uk Eco madness...

      Regardless of the merits of this car, you really still think that the most energy efficient way to move a car around is the 120-year old internal combustion engine?

      Even now it's 25% efficient at best. You're exploding hydrocarbons but using only the expansion energy, wasting the generated heat. The engines are small and relatively heavy, they are slow to power up which means you've got to leave them idling even when stationary. They can only power acceleration, which means an equal amount of energy required to stop the car is wasted. Finally, they're widely distributed and there are loads of them, which means improvement, or replacement with a better technology, is expensive and time-consuming - it's the classic "last mile problem" from telecoms.

      None of this applies to electric, even if it's generated at a central station burning gas or oil - large plants are 60% efficient, and you can swap them out for renewables or nuclear as they come on line without modifying the car.

      The only advantage internal combustion has is power-density, ease of storage and the existing distribution network for hydrocarbons, but that's a tick for convenience, not for efficiency. It's like claiming copper is better than fibre optic simply because it's already run to your house.

      1. Ben Rose

        Re: Yet more Uk Eco madness...

        "Regardless of the merits of this car, you really still think that the most energy efficient way to move a car around is the 120-year old internal combustion engine?"

        Aha, another Robert Llewellyn reader?

        "Even now it's 25% efficient at best."

        Somewhat disagree with your figure but, even if it were true, efficiency isn't entirely important here. Crude oil has no use in the ground. When it comes out, it is used for many things such a plastic that is even used in electric cars. From those fractions, the fuel fractions have one use...as a fuel. So you claim it's 25% efficient? It's 25% efficient at converting oil that is not much use for anything else into motion. On the other hand, electricity has many uses...like powering this computer.

        " You're exploding hydrocarbons but using only the expansion energy, wasting the generated heat."

        The heat is used to warm the car, something electric cars are very inefficient at doing on a cold day. It's used to heat the catalytic converter, to reduce emissions and used to heat the oil to improve efficiency.

        "The engines are small and relatively heavy, they are slow to power up which means you've got to leave them idling even when stationary."

        Most modern cars have stop/start functions. They don't need to idle when stationary at all.

        "They can only power acceleration, which means an equal amount of energy required to stop the car is wasted."

        Most modern cars have kinetic energy recovery systems on board. In this model, it is used to charge the batteries. Enough energy is harvested to turn the engine off for 40% of a typical 40 miles journey.

        "Finally, they're widely distributed and there are loads of them, which means improvement, or replacement with a better technology, is expensive and time-consuming"

        Agreed, but the same can be said for battery improvements on EVs.

        "None of this applies to electric"

        It does.

        "even if it's generated at a central station burning gas or oil - large plants are 60% efficient, and you can swap them out for renewables or nuclear as they come on line without modifying the car.

        Efficiency in pure energy terms maybe but, as I said above, "wasting" energy stored in petrol isn't a waste. It's simply releasing energy from nature and putting it back into the world in another form. It will also be a long time before renewables/nuclear meet electricity demand and remove our dependence on fossil fuels.

        "The only advantage internal combustion has is power-density, ease of storage and the existing distribution network for hydrocarbons, but that's a tick for convenience, not for efficiency."

        Pretty much an advantage in every area then? There isn't much efficiency in not using oil supplies, considering their energy content.

        " It's like claiming copper is better than fibre optic simply because it's already run to your house."

        It's better if you don't have cable in your street ;O)

        1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

          Re: Yet more Uk Eco madness...

          Ben, I'm afraid you've missed most if not all of my points. Kinetic recovery on a modern car? Nope. On an electric hybrid yes, but not on a normal car - you need electric motors (=generators) on the wheels. And I'm not claiming fuel burned in an IC engine would be otherwise "wasted" - that's a daft argument, clearly we're going to be burning oil for many years to come. But doing so on a small scale will never be as efficient as doing so in a centralised plant.

          You could conceivably make the case for internal combustion based on the existing infrastructure, on energy density, or on ease of storage, but you can't make it based on efficiency. It is a markedly inferior technology.

          Never heard of Robert Llewellyn by the way. He sounds welsh.

          1. Ben Rose

            Re: Yet more Uk Eco madness...

            "Ben, I'm afraid you've missed most if not all of my points. Kinetic recovery on a modern car? Nope. On an electric hybrid yes, but not on a normal car - you need electric motors (=generators) on the wheels."

            No, you need a modified alternator anywhere on the driveshaft. They very much exist on any modern car with stop/start functionality and provide the power required to restart the engine and power A/C whilst stationary.

            "And I'm not claiming fuel burned in an IC engine would be otherwise "wasted" - that's a daft argument, clearly we're going to be burning oil for many years to come. But doing so on a small scale will never be as efficient as doing so in a centralised plant."

            Centralising power generation has some efficiency improvements but there are massive losses on the supply network (circa 10-20%). Also, there is no efficient means of storing the generated power, so it can't really be used on the move.

            "You could conceivably make the case for internal combustion based on the existing infrastructure, on energy density, or on ease of storage, but you can't make it based on efficiency. It is a markedly inferior technology."

            Efficiency is only a concern when the waste product is a true loss. It isn't here.

            1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

              Re: Yet more Uk Eco madness...

              Wow, I would love to see your battery - stopping a 1500kg car once from 100km/h is about 40kj - that's a lot of energy to store, let along dump into a battery (via a rubber belt, no less) over the few seconds when you're braking. And what's the point of doing so? Without electric drive, the battery is only used for starting - there's no requirement for that energy. Maybe things are different on stop/start cars (or you live in a seriously hot climate!), but once running, a car's electrics run on the alternator. I have a feeling you're out on this one, the physics just don't stack up.

              But whatever. Efficiency should be a concern anywhere the resource is limited, so if you believe oil is a limited resource (limited as in not made by pixies, not as in running out next month) then this stuff is worth pursuing. Batting it around here is pointless, there have been plenty of studies done on the whole cycle before and I'm not saying anything controversial or even new. Google "well to wheel efficiency", if you're genuininely interested in this stuff take a look.

              Again, to reiterate, I'm just referring to efficiency (which is physics), not infrastructure (which is politics).

              1. Ben Rose

                Re: Yet more Uk Eco madness...

                "Wow, I would love to see your battery - stopping a 1500kg car once from 100km/h is about 40kj - that's a lot of energy to store, let along dump into a battery (via a rubber belt, no less) over the few seconds when you're braking. And what's the point of doing so? Without electric drive, the battery is only used for starting - there's no requirement for that energy. Maybe things are different on stop/start cars (or you live in a seriously hot climate!), but once running, a car's electrics run on the alternator. I have a feeling you're out on this one, the physics just don't stack up."

                Cars fitted with stop/start don't rely on a standard 12v. It would run flat far too quickly in a stop/start configuration. Instead they usually have an additionally battery in the boot charged from KERS.

                There is a massive power draw on modern cars - A/C, stereo, GPS etc - this ticks over OK when the engine is running but when the engine goes off it kills a normal 12V very quickly.

                "But whatever. Efficiency should be a concern anywhere the resource is limited, so if you believe oil is a limited resource (limited as in not made by pixies, not as in running out next month) then this stuff is worth pursuing."

                Sure, oil is potentially limited and could run out in a couple of generations time. It would be a waste not to make use of what is there though, rather than deploy terribly poor alternatives.

                "Batting it around here is pointless, there have been plenty of studies done on the whole cycle before and I'm not saying anything controversial or even new. Google "well to wheel efficiency", if you're genuininely interested in this stuff take a look"

                Yes, I wrote many of those articles on-line and in print.

                "Again, to reiterate, I'm just referring to efficiency (which is physics), not infrastructure (which is politics)."

                Comparing the local efficiency of two different fuels in rather pointless. KInda like saying that boiling a kettle is more efficient than heating up an oven. You can't exactly bake a potato in a kettle.

      2. Stacy
        Unhappy

        pedant alert...

        Sorry, but I have to correct something. Engines do not 'explode' hydrocarbons. If you do (in a petrol engine) it has the name pinking, and can cause serious damage to the engine. You burn the fuel.

        However, I agree the internal combustion engine is old, inefficient technology. But until I can load up my V70 and set off on a 1600km journey knowing that when the battery is flat it's only a short stop and I'm moving again it won't be something usable.

        Plus I want the performance of the petrol car. They may not be efficient but they can provide a lot of power almost instantly. EV's are not there yet... This Prius, despite being smaller, slipper and lighter, is still 4 seconds off of the V70 0-60 pace. Electric motors can be powerful enough, but if I understand correctly the batteries cannot release the power quick enough to propel a real sized car at any decent pace yet.

        Hopefully when the V70 is replaced in 5 years the battery / motor technology will be there so I won't need to buy another petrol car. But I am not going to hold my breath!

        1. Ben Rose

          @Stacy Re: pedant alert...

          "Sorry, but I have to correct something. Engines do not 'explode' hydrocarbons. If you do (in a petrol engine) it has the name pinking, and can cause serious damage to the engine. You burn the fuel."

          Actually, pinking isn't so bad. Detonation is the real issue. Even in controlled combustion, it is still explosive however...by definition...that's why the piston moves.

          "However, I agree the internal combustion engine is old, inefficient technology. But until I can load up my V70 and set off on a 1600km journey knowing that when the battery is flat it's only a short stop and I'm moving again it won't be something usable."

          Sounds like you're be buying the Volvo V60 plug-in hybrid.

          "Plus I want the performance of the petrol car. They may not be efficient but they can provide a lot of power almost instantly. EV's are not there yet..."

          Incorrect. EVs provide the most instant power possible. They go to max torque almost instantaneously.

          "This Prius, despite being smaller, slipper and lighter, is still 4 seconds off of the V70 0-60 pace."

          Don't have the figures to hand, but this is purely down to the chosen output of the vehicle. My old Lexus hybrid was the fastest production saloon at launch...largely due to the electric motor.

          " Electric motors can be powerful enough, but if I understand correctly the batteries cannot release the power quick enough to propel a real sized car at any decent pace yet."

          Incorrect. They just run out of juice too quickly for a practical application.

          1. Stacy
            Happy

            Re: @Stacy pedant alert...

            Eek!!!

            Pinking is detonation, and it can rip the tops of the pistons and p destroy the valves if you leave an engine doing it for long enough! Modern cars don't generally have this issue as combustion is very tightly controlled by the ECU, but it's something that you need to be careful off when you have to set the car yourself - an old classic for example. I don't worry about it with the V70, but my Spitfire gets tuned regularly to ensure the timing hasn't crept out.

            And not, not all combustion is not the same as exploding. When petrol burns it expands quickly and puts pressure on the piton head to push it down, expanding all the time to keep the force on the piston throughout the stroke. When it pinks, explodes, there is an instant force on the top of the piston. This force is initially far greater and hotter causing both too much force on the bearings, piston rings etc and also causing hotspots due to the greater, more localised heat. Once the explosion has ended there is no longer force on the piston head to finish the stroke causing an imbalance in the engine - putting even more atypical stress on the components.

            If left untreated (timing change, using a different fuel, getting the compression ration checked etc) then you will do serious damage to the engine.

            If they make a V70 plug-in maybe it would be something that I would consider

            You're right, electric motors have instant, 100% torque. And yet most modern cars using them suck when comparing them to petrol engines. Same for motorbikes. At present they just can't produce the instant bang of power from the battery packs that petrol engines can do from a petrol tank. Battery technology is just not there yet. It'll get there, and I'll be happy when it does. But it's not there yet - if it was then more cars would be electric (and the ones that are available would have *much* better performance ;p)

            1. Ben Rose

              Re: @Stacy pedant alert...

              Stacy,

              I don't even know where to begin replying to that but you need to a) understand what an explosion is and b) appreciate that detonation also affect rotary engines that don't have any pistons.

              You also need to appreciate that battery tech does exactly what you talk of now, it's ready, just not required.

This topic is closed for new posts.