Microsoft has at last released some more details on its Surface tablet – including pricing – but based on what we've seen so far, Apple and Android-tablet makers don't have much to worry about. First the good stuff: Microsoft appears to have created a system that, on the face of it, could give Apple a run for its money – at …

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1. 1. 1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 02:21 GMT Richard Plinston
      
      Re: And all Apple has to do ?
      
      > Proven track record - meaningless; MS aren't some unknown company.
      
      MS does have a proven track record in tablet format devices: Slates, and something referred to as 'Pen and Ink', or is that just rhyming slang for it.
      
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  2. Wednesday 17th October 2012 03:43 GMT Charles Manning
    
    Do Apple need to knock off $100?
    
    No.
    
    If I'm shelling out $500, I might as well just shell out $600 and not risk being left with something that might go Zune on me.
    
    Buying an iPad is a known quantity with a huge apps market etc. That's worth quite a bit.
    
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2. Wednesday 17th October 2012 01:22 GMT Mark .
  
  Re: And all Apple has to do ?
  
  By that logic, all MS has to do is knock $100 off and it will kill the ipad dead. MS can change the price in future just like Apple can.
  
  Although it's pretty basic business logic for companies in oligopolies to not engage in price wars if they can avoid it, because it just harms them both.
  
  Not to mention that historically Apple are never able to make cheap products, instead they have to charge loads for them, preferring to make money selling overpriced products to a niche. Fans have been claiming for years how a mythical better priced iphone would "kill Android dead", but you know what? I'm still waiting.
  
  Apple can only afford to do so in the sense of burning lots of cash, but why would they throw away their ability to make any money, when it's the reason companies exist in the first place, just so that a few Apple fans can finally brag about their OS not being runner up in the market?
  
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Tuesday 16th October 2012 19:41 GMT Nate Amsden

Yeah, show them how it's done!

Just like you did with the Zune, good job MS.

MS would of been better off with even more massive subsides to build up market share, they can afford it. I agree with 'el reg, the surface will eat into what little market there is for Ultra books, and not get much beyond that. At least this version.

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1. Tuesday 16th October 2012 19:59 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  I think the only question here: Will Surface be a Zune or a Kin?
  
  Methinks Zune... a me-too product as, if not more, expensive than comparable Apple kit.
  
  Place yer bets!
  
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2. Wednesday 17th October 2012 09:37 GMT qwarty
  
  Re: Yeah, show them how it's done!
  
  Biggest mistake with Zune to my mind was keeping it a US-only product, most successful consumer products nowadays address the international market.
  
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Tuesday 16th October 2012 19:42 GMT Anonymous Coward

Are they insane?

You've pointed out everything I was going to say but...the stupid, it burns!

Literally the only reason to get this over an iPad or Nexus 7 is a cut-down version of Office. Oh and $100 minimum for a touchpad cover is a joke as well.

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Tuesday 16th October 2012 19:43 GMT iGoto

Car crash?

I firmly believe Microsoft have something that could really shake things up and give us a viable alternative to Android/Apple. However, that price point is just nuts. I've held back buying a slab waiting to see what Microsoft was going to come up with but this is just bullshit. I'm looking at PC World website (yes, bloody PC World - can't believe it myself), and they have the ASUS TF300 priced at £379. Virtually identical specs (OK, it has 1GB instead of 2GB and the CPU is 1.2 instead of 1.3)... BUT it's nearly £100 cheaper than the Surface (+ touch keyboard).

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1. Tuesday 16th October 2012 20:10 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  They believe Office will win it for them
  
  but I think it could destroy Office instead. It's not a secret that they've held Office for iPad back to give this a USP. I see the logic, but it's a very big gamble, and a rapid iteration of iWork could leave them completely in the cold in a very large market.
  
  Fortunately Apple have never been very keen to commit to enterprise software as they seem to see matching a feature checklist as rather boring, hard work.
  
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  1. Thursday 18th October 2012 06:40 GMT kanguru007
    
    Re: They believe Office will win it for them
    
    "Pages" and "Numbers" are the Apple's office apps for the iPad and they work just beautifully. At 7.99 Eur each they are just too expensive for me ...well, not really expensive but they are irrelevant, it's been years since I last used any brand of office apps and I am just happy that way.
    
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2. Wednesday 17th October 2012 00:39 GMT Sloppy Crapmonster
  
  Re: Car crash?
  
  "I firmly believe Microsoft have something that could really shake things up and give us a viable alternative to Android/Apple."
  
  What makes you think that? 0% of the software you've already bought will work on this device, *and* it's as expensive as the tablet that everyone wants anyway -- I mean, I gave up on Apple when they killed the Newton; I don't think I've ever heard anyone expressing an interest in a non-Apple tablet (except you, just now). If you're starting all over buying stuff for it anyway, are you just going with the devil you know?
  
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Tuesday 16th October 2012 19:44 GMT Tom 35

DOA

Costs the same, crappy screen, over priced keyboard extra, charger extra (really? even Nexus 7 came with one).

Lots of luck MS.

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1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 01:28 GMT Mark .
  
  Re: DOA
  
  Ipad: costs the same, less storage, over priced keyboard extra, no microSD. Lots of luck Apple.
  
  (Personally I'd take an Android tablet over either - better features, more open, more free. But the criticisms here should be levelled at Apple far more so.)
  
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  1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 04:23 GMT Tom 35
    
    Re: DOA
    
    I bought a Nexus 7, not an iPad. But MS is not trying to compete with Android, they are clearly going after Apple having copied the whole business model.
    
    They are going after Apple, but why would anyone buy one over an Apple if they are going to spend that much?
    
    It's not cheaper, so it has to be better.
    
    Is it better? About the only thing I can see is the microSD card (depends how crippled it is) other then that it has nothing going for it. No apps, crap screen, no "cool", if you want a tablet with no apps, buy a playbook, it's way cheaper!
    
    So if it's not cheaper, and it's not better... DOA.
    
    Apple don't need luck, they already have almost all of the high end market.
    
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  2. Wednesday 17th October 2012 21:42 GMT RICHTO
    
    Re: DOA
    
    And no USB, No Office, no Magnesium case, no stand....
    
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    1. Thursday 18th October 2012 22:18 GMT Richard Plinston
      
      Re: DOA
      
      > Magnesium case
      
      The Surface Pro will have: Intel 'fry an egg' CPU, LiON 'exploding' battery and Magnesium 'incendiary' case.
      
      What could possibly go wrong.
      
      Oh, wait, the FAA could hear about this and ban them from being taken on commercial flights. ;-)
      
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Tuesday 16th October 2012 19:44 GMT ThomH

What's wrong with Pages, Numbers and Keynote?

They're as good in isolation as most other word processors, spreadsheets and presentation software, and as compatible with Microsoft Office as most things that aren't Microsoft Office (ie, reasonably but less so since Microsoft started creating fonts specifically for its idiosyncratic kerning and declining to license them).

I like to imagine that Microsoft's belated entry has made a lot of people realise that Office-equivalent functionality will do, whether on iOS or Android, in much the same way that IBM compatible became an acceptable alternative to buying IBM — especially when they took forever to release a 386.

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1. Tuesday 16th October 2012 19:54 GMT Charlie Clark
  
  Re: What's wrong with Pages, Numbers and Keynote?
  
  The Office market wants a full fat Office and is prepared to pay for it that's why they give IOS works such short shrift. Softmaker Office for Android got a very good review but is still not good enough. Office for IOS/Android is potentially a huge market for MS if only they could get their head out of their arse. Be interesting to know how many units they've pencilled in to sell this quarter.
  
  Good analysis of the Surface and the market it's facing.
  
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  1. Tuesday 16th October 2012 21:39 GMT jonathanb
    
    Re: What's wrong with Pages, Numbers and Keynote?
    
    Actually I don't agree. The one thing the iPad has shown us is that tablets are not replacements for laptops. They are an additional device.
    
    If you go round the country doing PowerPoint presentations, you prepare the .pptx file on your desktop/laptop, then transfer it to your slab to take it on the road.
    
    If you are a travelling salesman, you have all your product information on the slab to refer to, and you dial back into the office with a mobile version of the CRM/sales ledger app to take orders and stuff like that.
    
    If you are a service engineer, your slab can pull in the job schedule for the day, and you can record service notes, book parts etc on it. If it has GPS, it could also give you directions to your next site. Back at the office, this information could be used to move jobs about if one person is taking longer or not as long as expected.
    
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  2. Tuesday 16th October 2012 22:34 GMT P. Lee
    
    Re: What's wrong with Pages, Numbers and Keynote?
    
    > The Office market wants a full fat Office and is prepared to pay for it
    
    True. Sadly, they won't get full fat office on MS' tablet either. I see disappointment there and that will probably hurt MS more. They should have released a very hobbled version of office for ipad to get people used to a reduced feature set and upped the capabilities for their own tablet.
    
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    1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 07:30 GMT h4rm0ny
      
      Re: What's wrong with Pages, Numbers and Keynote?
      
      "True. Sadly, they won't get full fat office on MS' tablet either."
      
      Well they will in three months when the Pro version comes out. And OEMs have theirs ready to roll this month. We've yet to see how cut down MS Office is on WinRT also. We know that it lacks VB Macros. But it does support the new iteration of macros which are the web plugins which are more secure going forward.
      
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      1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 10:13 GMT Kristian Walsh
        
        Re: What's wrong with Pages, Numbers and Keynote?
        
        Of the iWorks trio, only Keynote is functionally that is superior to its Office counterpart. No surprise, really, as the lead beta-tester for Keynote was none other than Steven P. Jobs.
        
        Pages has some amazing oversights for what is supposed to be a document creation tool (section referencing, TOC, indexing, bibliography/citations). It also routinely lost its list and section numbering when I used it, and that was a complete deal-breaker. Back to LaTeX...
        
        Numbers is just about okay as a spreadsheet, but the multiple-chart-per-page layout doesn't interoperate well with any other spreadsheet, and this alone rules it out for commercial use. Also, it lacks a lot of lookup and logical functions that are essential for modelling and planning uses. The last version I used also didn't do pivot tables, which I would consider to be a baseline feature for a spreadsheet.
        
        I really like Keynote, and I wanted Pages and Numbers to be as good, but all the UI polish in the world won't hide that they're not up to the job.
        
        If MS can provide "real" Office with a slicker UI, they're on a winner. There's an entire market of corporates who just want that: a 100% Excel-compatible spreadsheet viewer/editor that you can carry around like a clipboard. There's another army of customers that's just waiting for a way to review and annotate long Word documents without fear of rendering them unusable in the process...
        
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        Wednesday 17th October 2012 10:52 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: What's wrong with Pages, Numbers and Keynote?
        
        "There's another army of customers that's just waiting for a way to review and annotate long Word documents without fear of rendering them unusable in the process..."
        
        Completely agree, having seen more than one near "monitor meet window" close encounters, but that would involve a complete rewrite of Word to make it a proper document generation program and not the bastard random collection of bits from the content creation workflow that it is today.
        
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2. Tuesday 16th October 2012 20:36 GMT Wensleydale Cheese
  
  Re: What's wrong with Pages, Numbers and Keynote?
  
  Number can't compete with Excel for the sort of stuff my accountant does, but let's face it, how many folks really need the extra functionality that Excel offers?
  
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  1. Tuesday 16th October 2012 22:33 GMT Goat Jam
    
    Re: What's wrong with Pages, Numbers and Keynote?
    
    "Number can't compete with Excel for the sort of stuff my accountant does"
    
    Perhaps, but then your accountant is not likely to be doing your stuff on a fondleslab, is he?
    
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  2. Wednesday 17th October 2012 10:49 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Re: What's wrong with Pages, Numbers and Keynote?
    
    This is true but the version of Office people have is seen as a status symbol. I remember one user (arse) who having got the version of Office that did docx, then complained because he had to "downgrade" his documents to .doc for the peons.
    
    The joke? His "documents" were plain text with minimum formatting.
    
    In the same way, in one conversion trial from Office to OpenOffice in Germany, the users with OpenOffice complained, not because it didn't work, but because they didn't want to be perceived as only needing "free software".
    
    As for Excel...I've just written a report to a charity about the "Excel spreadsheet" it is using for accounting. Unfit for purpose is the least of it. But I guess they will bin my report because the person who committed it thinks he is an "expert" with Excel.
    
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    1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 11:46 GMT h4rm0ny
      
      Re: What's wrong with Pages, Numbers and Keynote?
      
      "This is true but the version of Office people have is seen as a status symbol."
      
      You definitely need to find a better crowd to hang out with.
      
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3. Wednesday 17th October 2012 10:49 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: What's wrong with Pages, Numbers and Keynote?
  
  You've got that right.
  
  My company has been testing iPads as laptops replacement for a while.
  
  The only thing people selected for the trials were complaining about at first was "but there is no office".
  
  One month into the trial, they wanted Keynote on their PCs.
  
  Pages is as good as Word and Numbers is the only one which needs improvements.
  
  if Apple could add Pivot table support to Numbers on the iPad they'd have a perfect replacement for Office.
  
  Anonymous for obvious reasons.
  
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Tuesday 16th October 2012 19:50 GMT Anonymous Coward

WTF

Apple prices and its not Apple? Who would therefore bother?

Look what happened to HP and RIM. Tried to copy Appple prices and then had to massively undercut to shift stocks.

People still not buying.

You get one chance MS. Dont blow it !

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1. Tuesday 16th October 2012 21:07 GMT Yet Another Anonymous coward
  
  Re: WTF
  
  Remember it's all about image - think of all the young trendy people out there.
  
  Balmer - women want him, men want to be him !
  
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  1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 09:43 GMT hplasm
    
    Re: WTF
    
    Balmer - women haunt him, men want to beat him !
    
    FTFY
    
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2. Wednesday 17th October 2012 00:09 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: WTF
  
  My thought is they were given the design brief to beat the ipad2 - but by the time they delivered the target had moved on. They were then in the situation of having an ipad2 level machine, but an ipad3 price. No matter how much they squirm this hybrid thingy is not a competitor for the ipad3 - and we already know what happens when perfectly serviceable tablet designs go toe-to-toe with the ipad on the same price...
  
  Realistically the focus is now on the £200 and 7" price/spec points. 10"ers aren't where its at, and if you're smart you get the Nexus 7 over the ipad3 anyway. MS design effort fell behind that change curve. If they had been smarter and seen the writing on the wall the RT would have been a 7-8" tablet, with the touch keyboard cover included for £250 max. At that point they would have had space for the Pro and nobody would have bitched too much that their Office wasn't really Office, more a freebie Office compatible.
  
  As it is the Pro will be ~$1000 and just won't cut it.
  
  My prediction is it will take MS till June next year to realise that Win8 has been a turkey, Surface has turned into a dog, and Ballmer has to go.
  
  5 3
3. Wednesday 17th October 2012 01:30 GMT Mark .
  
  Re: WTF
  
  Because most of us don't give a crap about Apple?
  
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  1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 05:43 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    re: "Because most of us don't give a crap about Apple?"
    
    ...But many of us really hate Microsoft!
    
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    1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 08:02 GMT Anonymous Coward
      
      Re: re: "Because most of us don't give a crap about Apple?"
      
      Some of us hate Google as well.
      
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    2. Wednesday 17th October 2012 08:16 GMT Fryerman
      
      A near miss
      
      I had hopes for the Surface. Sometime ago I Loaded the developer preview of Win8 on one of my old laptops and that gave it a new lease of life. The metro interface was refreshing change, but in the end it ideally needed a tablet device. So I loaded the consumer preview on an old 10" tablet a few weeks ago and, after a small registry hack, its working pretty well - even works with existing software. The touchscreen keyboard is hopeless compared to that on an iPad though. I was holding off to get hold of the Surface as it promised to be a good piece of kit with a better keyboard. But at this price point and without a stylus it doesn't't seem worth it. The deal-breaker has to be the power adaptor which appears to be an extra. No one in their right mind sells a portable device without a charger, or maybe that clever cover hides a solar array...
      
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Tuesday 16th October 2012 19:52 GMT Fuzz

USP

Microsoft had a USP with the keyboard cover but it stops being a USP if you have to pay extra for it. They should have priced it $499 including the keyboard. I also think the 16:9 ratio is a mistake.

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1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 21:45 GMT RICHTO
  
  Re: USP
  
  16:9 - so movies display without black bars - is a mistake? Erm, why exactly? Thats an advantage to 99% of users imo.
  
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  1. Sunday 21st October 2012 19:29 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Re: USP
    
    I can't run Office on my Lenovo L430 because the damn screen is too short. If I rotate it 90, it's then too narrow (USB keyboard...)
    
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Tuesday 16th October 2012 19:58 GMT Mike Judge

£510 for 32gb with keyboard

Ouch..

It's not even the version that runs windows apps.

This is gonna flop bigger than windows phone

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1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 08:03 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: £510 for 32gb with keyboard
  
  Which is why the 32GB pre-orders have sold out?
  
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2. Wednesday 17th October 2012 08:16 GMT Don'tWantAHandle
  
  Re: £510 for 32gb with keyboard
  
  It isn't - it is £479, including VAT and, if you pre-order, free delivery.
  
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Tuesday 16th October 2012 20:05 GMT banjomike

Being as good isn't going to cut any ice in market share

not totally true. Some people loath Apple for their control freakery, inability to downgrade OS or Apps and many other points. I wouldn't buy another Apple product unless everything else cost twice as much. If the Slab is as good as the iPad then it will still be better than Apple.

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1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 05:16 GMT Richard 12
  
  Re: Being as good isn't going to cut any ice in market share
  
  The trouble is that Windows 8 RT is Microsoft's attempt at copying Apple iOS control freakery.
  
  Same kind of walled garden, same kind of inter-application sandboxing.
  
  So anybody who dislikes Apple iOS for these things will also hate Windows 8 RT.
  
  The inverse is also true, but less relevant.
  
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2. Wednesday 17th October 2012 11:02 GMT DiBosco
  
  Re: Being as good isn't going to cut any ice in market share
  
  Eh? Because Microsoft are totally open and have never tried to have any control over what you have bought?
  
  Microsoft have totally missed the boat on all this. They are a company with zero innovation, very low cool factor, high price and a reputation for making unreliable software, even with those who don't know computers that well. Why the Hell would anyone buy these over über Cool Apple or much cheaper, better specified, [much] more-apps Android? Other than the ever diminishing breed of MS fanbois?
  
  The idea that Office will win over buyers is beyond hilarious. Tablets in general are useless for anything but basic surfing and [very] simple work. Next to no-one is going to buy these for serious work when you could spend less on a [much] more powerful machine with a keyboard, that is not that much bigger and heavier and is probably cheaper.
  
  Microsoft: becoming a little more irrelevant by the day.
  
  1 1
Tuesday 16th October 2012 20:07 GMT Piro

Yeah, Windows RT is no good

Really? There are almost no applications available for it, and at these prices, why would you bother?

Surface Pro, an AMD64 version which be viable, as opposed to the cut-down ARM version, would be decent, but if this is the pricing for the useless toy version, I cringe at the thought of the full fat version.

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Tuesday 16th October 2012 20:29 GMT Anonymous Coward

I want one

And I'll buy one.

But, for reference, they need to...

1. bundle the keyboardable (TM) cover.

2. Make sure they have an Angry Birds app

Then I'll buy another one for the kids too.

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1. Wednesday 17th October 2012 10:27 GMT Shonko Kid
  
  Angry birds: Redmond edition
  
  Perhaps Rovio could do a custom version for Surface, where you fling chairs instead of birds, and the targets could be half eaten apples, robots and maybe even those Jobs effigies that were banned.
  
  I'd buy a Surface to play Angry Chairs any day!
  
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Tuesday 16th October 2012 20:40 GMT Anonymous Coward

Don't start complaining too much el reg

or Redmond will emulate yet another characteristic of Apple's PR: they won't give you the time of day.

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Tuesday 16th October 2012 20:46 GMT Phoenix50

Pass the tissues

http://www.kleenex.co.uk/UK/Products/AtHome.aspx#Disney

I've picked the Disney ones for all your Fandroids to wank furiously over how much you all hate Microsoft and want anything they do to fail; because just like Cinderella, your wishes are pure and utter fantasy.

Enjoy your Nexus Pumpkins, wankers.

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