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back to article 'Hypersensitive' Wi-Fi hater loses case against fiendish DEVICES

Veteran Campaigner Against Stuff Arthur Firstenberg won a case last week, and lost one too, but there won't be much celebrating as even the victory was a false one. The case he lost started in 2010, when Firstenberg claimed his neighbour's Wi-Fi was sneaking through the mains wires into his house to keep him awake at night. …

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        1. AlbertH
          Reply Icon

          Re: Inquiring minds...

          I worked at Droitwich. We used to have to weld the seams on nearby refrigerators, cookers and other "white goods" to prevent them "sounding off". We could hear the audio on a gas fire in a house across the road from the site!

          The eeriest effect was walking across the site on a misty night, hearing the audio demodulated by the tiny arcs across the antenna insulators - there were ethereal voices all around!

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        2. Mage Silver badge
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          Re: Inquiring minds...

          No-one has ever been able to replicate Tooth reception.

          I know not entirely serious, but Myth busters tried too.

          I bet the barbed wire fence is long and near the transmitter. I've built "crystal" sets with better diodes than galena or oxide (copper oxide can be quite good) and you need large aerial (loop or long wire + earth) and very sensitive earpiece.

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    2. John Robson Silver badge
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      Re: Inquiring minds...

      There have been enough cases where complaints were made about new mobile masts...

      Only to then discover that they hadn't been powered up yet.

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      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Inquiring minds...

        >There have been enough cases where complaints were made about new mobile masts...

        >Only to then discover that they hadn't been powered up yet.

        So that's premature hyper-sensitivity disorder ?

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        1. Alan Esworthy
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          Coat

          Re: Inquiring minds...

          "So that's premature hyper-sensitivity disorder?"

          Yes, and there's also a related disorder known as electrile dysfunction.

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      2. Tom 35
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        Re: Inquiring minds...

        A friend who is IT for a school had a teacher who was moaning about them setting up Wifi in the school so he took a dead router and removed all the guts. Jammed a red LED in the power light hole with a resistor to the power brick so it would light up.

        Stuck it up on the wall of the classroom with a cat 5 cable stuck through the hole in the back.

        The teacher had new problems every day, and had some of the students blaming failed test marks on the wifi.

        When shown that the router had no guts she quit and filed a complaint that she was being persecuted.

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        1. Anonymous Coward
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          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Inquiring minds...Bwahahaha

          Nice to see the placebo effect in action.

          I might try this with a dead mobile phone, but put a Geiger counter in it so it periodically lights up when it counts a particle and logs to intermal memory.

          Functional AND useful :-)

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    3. hplasm
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      Devil

      Re: Inquiring minds...

      Double blind test- poke out both eyes and see if he can tell when the wifi is on...

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    4. petur
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      Joke

      Re: Inquiring minds...

      @Zaphod.Beeblebrox: Seeing YOU actually suggest a double blind test gave me a chuckle.... Yes, you need BOTH heads blindfolded!

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      1. Isendel Steel
        Reply Icon
        Joke

        Re: Inquiring minds...

        I guess the Joo-Janta 2000 Peril Sensitive Sunglasses would prove the point. Would stop you seeing the wireless effect.

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        1. Roger Kynaston
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          Happy

          Re: Inquiring minds... And I hate

          ... it when everyone makes Hitchhikers jokes. How can I maintain the pretence that my spotty friends and I were the only ones who got Douglas Adams when we were in our teens.

          OT but I had to get that off my now unspotty chest.

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    5. AlbertH
      Reply Icon
      Flame

      Re: Inquiring minds... and total idiots

      Yes.

      Extensive tests were done back in the 80s when mobile phones were first becoming common. I was involved with medical testing carried out by the British Government. "Electrosensitivity" was shown conclusively to be complete nonsense.

      Unfortunately, there are too many ignorant fools who work on the "no smoke without fire" principle. This has led to schools being equipped with inconvenient and expensive wired networks, idiots refusing to have mobile phone bases in their neighbourhoods (and then complaining of poor coverage!), and stupid bans on use of mobile phones in aircraft and hospitals (if their electronics is sensitive enough to be upset by the use of a mobile phone, I don't want to trust it with my life!!!).

      The clueless don't understand that they more irradiated by going outside on a sunny day than they ever will by mobile phones, wi-fi networks and all the rest!

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    6. Adrian Midgley 1
      Reply Icon

      Re: Inquiring minds...

      Yes.

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  2. dotdavid
    Trollface

    ""It seems that Mr Firstenberg has decided to put more effort into litigation than into determining the actual cause of his symptoms, and that’s unfortunate." "

    So is he an Apple employee or a RIAA employee?

    *Ducks*

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  3. HMB

    Think of the Children!

    "Oh no! Not a wireless network! Think of the Children!!"

    "Alright Ma'am, well if you'd just like to hand over your mobile phones including the ones from all of your family, cancel your ADSL, return your BT HomeHub, ditch your cordless phone, hand over your Microwave, bin your baby monitor, remove your CCTV and junk your christmas lights and we'll take it from there...."

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    1. Trygve Henriksen
      Reply Icon

      Re: Think of the Children!

      Don't forget any FM radios around the house, too.

      Many 'leak' 500KHz from one of the early stages.

      Same with TVs. That's how broadcasters can tell how many different TVs there are in a building when they're doing a raid, looking for people watching TV without a license...

      (In those parts of the world where broadcast is still (partially) financed by licensing)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaVMO4t_D8c

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      1. DJ Smiley
        Reply Icon
        FAIL

        Re: Think of the Children!

        Except they don't.

        When you buy any device capable of receiving over the air transmissions your required by law to fill in a form stating your details; address, etc.

        Then when they compare this to the list of license holders, they bust in, to find you've actually used it to build a robot, or something similarly sinister!

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      2. Andy 115
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        Re: Think of the Children!

        "Same with TVs. That's how broadcasters can tell how many different TVs there are in a building when they're doing a raid, looking for people watching TV without a license..."

        Oh dear! You have fallen victim to the TVL propoganda machine my friend…

        IF this were true, many thousands of people would have been prosecuted for TV license evasion based on the evidence provided by "detector" vans. As it stands though, not one person has ever been prosecuted based on such eveidence (HINT: it is too unreliable)

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        1. Dapprman
          Reply Icon

          Re: Think of the Children!

          In suppot of Andy115's comments

          I remember when they came clean over the old white Commerce (?) detector vans, that they were just ordinary vans with a wooden structure on top. All they really did was look for tell tale signs in windows of a TV being present/on and check against their list of licence holders to see if the address in question was covered.

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          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Think of the Children!

            > All they really did was look for tell tale signs in windows of a TV being present/on and check against their list of licence holders to see if the address in question was covered.

            Not even as complex as that. They just correlated addresses. If 95% of people in a street had (i.e. could afford) a TV it was statistically likely that everyone had, so they sent letters to the other 5%. Of course these days almost everyone has a TV, and it sometimes seems that the lower the household income, the bigger the TV will be...

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            1. Nigel 11
              Reply Icon
              Flame

              Re: Think of the Children!

              Of course these days almost everyone has a TV, and it sometimes seems that the lower the household income, the bigger the TV will be...

              Leading to another self-perpetuating bureaucracy that ought to be hit on the head.

              Scrap the TV license. Reduce the income tax personal allowance by sufficient to generate the same income. People too poor to pay income tax get to watch TV for free without having to break the law. There is no collection cost. There might be a few esoteric religions that feel offended.

              OK, put an "I do not watch TV" box on the income tax form, to claim back your allowance. Telling lies to HMRC is a really bad idea, especially since they now have a much shorter list of people claiming not to have TVs, and the ability to collect the fine when they catch you through your next year's PAYE.

              Next for the chop, NHS prescription charges: a tax on the chronically ill to subsidize the acutely ill, that probably costs more to administer than it actually raises. You couldn't make it up ....

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              1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
                Reply Icon
                Stop

                Re: Think of the Children!

                > Reduce the income tax personal allowance by sufficient to generate the same income.

                I really don't want to start a TV licence flamewar, but if we stick to discussing how to collect the money rather than whether it should be done, I do have one reservation about using general taxation.

                At the moment, the amount of the license comes from a separate parliamentary discussion. There is little opportunity for the government of the day to send a not-so-subtle hint to the BBC to say "hey guys, we'd really like to give you an increase, but that program on corruption you're planning, well, know what I mean?". Parliament as a whole (not just the government) gets to decide, and MPs can vote according to their consciences.

                Make it a line item in the budget, such as a personal allowance, and the situation changes. The budget vote tends to get whipped along party lines, and few MPs are going to vote down the whole budget (which could be seen a confidence measure) just because they're uncomfortable with an increase/decrease in the TV charge.

                IMO it would give government too much control over the public TV stations.

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          3. Vic
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            Re: Think of the Children!

            > they were just ordinary vans with a wooden structure on top.

            Bah. Next, you'll be telling me the Cat Detector Van isn't real either.

            Vic.

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          4. A J Stiles
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            Re: Think of the Children!

            Commer. Some were real, but they were expensive and unreliable. Many were dummies, and hardly less effective at producing queues in post offices near where they were deployed.

            Since the real detector vans were based around superhet receivers, they had their own local oscillators which leaked out. So you could build a TV detector van detector, and use it to switch off your TV set when it detected a TV detector van. And if you used a TRF front-end for your TV detector van detector, then this would even prevent the TV detector vans from being fitted with a TV detector van detector detector.

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        2. John Robson Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Think of the Children!

          Erm - isn't it just that the evidence isn't needed - after all, once you've detected the telly you then knock at the door and ask what's on.

          So easy it's not worth reporting what gave you reasonable suspicion.

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        3. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Think of the Children!

          The principle behind TV detector vans (picking up local oscillator radiation that leaks out via the aerial) is perfectly valid, and detection by such means is entirely possible. How many of the vans were "real", as opposed to "dummy" (like speed cameras) is another matter.

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          1. Dagg Silver badge
            Reply Icon
            Boffin

            Re: Think of the Children!

            Actually it wasn't the Local oscillator it was 15,625khz from the EHT oscillator they looked for. These was considerably easier to detect.

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            1. Ed_UK
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              Re: Think of the Children!

              "Actually it wasn't the Local oscillator it was 15,625khz from the EHT oscillator they looked for. "

              15625kHz is the line rate (625*25) and I think you're right that the same oscillator was also used to drive the EHT, probably to save components. However, I recall watching Blue Peter around mid-1970s when they showed a "TV detector van" in action. As a special challenge, they even went after a TV known to be tuned to BBC2, which was "particularly" hard to detect. My understanding was that they looked for LO leakage, radiating from the coax, as others have mentioned. Memory could be wonky after 35 years.

              My evil thought was to make a TV Detector Van detector (by detecting _their_ LO). Or, just power up a FOAD transmitter in LO band to splatter them. Might do odd things to neighbourhood tellies, though.

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            2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
              Reply Icon
              Stop

              Re: Think of the Children!

              > Actually it wasn't the Local oscillator it was 15,625khz from the EHT oscillator they looked for. These was considerably easier to detect.

              No, it wasn't. That would be very hard to detect, since such an ELF signal would not travel far, and it would be well-nigh impossible to get a directional fix on it. Harmonics of that frequency might be detectable, but they would be very weak. Put a long-wave radio beside a TV and you'll hear them, but they fade with only a few metres distance. You may be thinking of the US "TEMPEST" experiments, where they looked for the RF generated at video frequencies, to try and decode on-screen text.

              The tuner LO signal is stronger, and since it was carried back up the co-ax to the aerial it was easier to pick up. It's also far easier to do direction-finding on a signal at VHF and UHF.

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        4. Stoneshop
          Reply Icon
          Coat

          Re: Think of the Children!

          IF this were true, many thousands of people would have been prosecuted for TV license evasion based on the evidence provided by "detector" vans.

          What about cat license evasion?

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          1. hplasm
            Reply Icon
            Thumb Up

            Re: Think of the Children!

            I need a licence for my fish, Eric.

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      3. Anonymous Coward
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        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Think of the Children!

        If they leak 500KHz, does that mean (former) users of Morse Code don't like them?

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        1. AlbertH
          Reply Icon

          Re: Think of the Children!

          They don't. The frequencies in question are actually 10.7 MHz, 455 kHz, and 45 MHz (the three most common intermediate frequencies in receivers), and there are small amounts of the "local oscillator" that are radiated - this will be 455 kHz, 10.7 MHz or 45 MHz away from the frequency that the receiver is tuned to....

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          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Think of the Children!

            "They don't. The frequencies in question are actually 10.7 MHz, 455 kHz, and 45 MHz (the three most common intermediate frequencies in receivers), and there are small amounts of the "local oscillator" that are radiated "

            I have a faint memory of knowing what TV channel a neighbour was watching due to hearing the AM audio IF on shortwave. Was it also 45mhz for the old UK 405 line TVs? That would have been outside my general receiver's frequency ranges. How about something between 2mhz to 30mhz? My memory prompts 19mhz - but that's only a gut feeling.

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            1. Mage Silver badge
              Reply Icon
              Boffin

              Re: Think of the Children!

              You can get audio at the difference frequency between Video and Audio carriers, and harmonics, so 6MHz, 12MHz, 18MHz etc for 625 TV. About 4.x something MHz on 405, long time ago, I don't remember.

              The Audio IF strip if on carrier rather than "intercarrier" is 6MHz below video IF usually, so about 33MHz approx for 625 line.

              USA used 44MHz Video IF and Europe usually 39MHz approx for 625 line. Earlier 405 sets used various frequencies from about 12MHz to 44MHz. Earliest 405 sets simply tuned one 42MHz approx channel directly with NO IF, later in 1955 the first set boxes sold for Band I only sets to get ITV on Band III

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    2. Alan W. Rateliff, II
      Reply Icon
      Paris Hilton

      Re: Think of the Children!

      Sadly, if ever "proven" (being that plenty of research fails to prove) or simply accepted as reality, this could very well become another child welfare issue. We're already seeing how parents are inadequate at raising their children: not providing the proper nutrition, not providing a proper learning environment, not providing proper supervision and locked entries around pools so other unsupervised children don't break into your property and drown, not providing proper warnings to children to not question the missives of so-called authority and eat competitive foods like (gasp) sour cream and onion crisps at lunch.

      Soon we'll add not providing a electromagnetic-free environment for the child.

      Paris, mutated by bag phones while in the womb.

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  4. Dave 126 Silver badge

    I would imagine that regularly attending court would bring out in me the symptoms he claims to suffer from!

    Having an adversarial attitude doesn't promote restful nights.

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  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Curable by shock treatment?

    David Blaine-style?

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  6. HMB

    Severe Real Risk from Ionizing Radiation...

    ...but nothing to do with wireless comms.

    This radiation risk is far more intense than any other on the planet.

    Get protected people.

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  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The Cause Of His Symptoms

    "It seems that Mr Firstenberg has decided to put more effort into litigation than into determining the actual cause of his symptoms, and that’s unfortunate."

    The cause of his symptoms is easily ascertained: it is psychosis.

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    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: The Cause Of His Symptoms

      what if his neighbour hadn't been able to afford a lawyer, or hadn't looked sympathetic in court, or was a gender/skin colour/race that the jury didn't like - then he would have won and the laws of physics would have been determined by the precedence of a case in some backward US state.

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  8. Arthur the cat Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Wikipedia: Firstenberg was a Westinghouse scholar

    and yet he's against electromagnetic fields. Sigh.

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  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Personally I think he must be mentally ill and needs to be treated.

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    1. Alister
      Reply Icon

      ...and needs to be treated.

      With electrotherapy?

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  10. Mondo the Magnificent
    Coat

    Taking his paranoia and hatred of all things RF into consideration...

    ..I reckon this poor chap must be wired.....

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  11. RainForestGuppy
    Alien

    Waiting For...

    Firstenberg vs Big Bang**.

    Damn you Creation of the Universe and your background eltromagnetic radiation!!

    ** or Firstenberg vs God. if you believe in those sort of things.

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    1. Oninoshiko
      Reply Icon
      Devil

      Re: Waiting For...

      YES! I think he needs to sue the church!

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  12. Piloti
    Thumb Down

    In princinple, what is the difference.....

    .... between wi-fi and, say, FM / MW / LW radio ?

    I was wondering about this before I put [virtual] pen to [online] paper, and can think of only range / power [wifi may be 'stronger'] and the two way nature of wifi, for the up link, down link side.

    I found a UK version of the Americans page, and it's here : http://www.es-uk.info/index.asp I mention is because Dr Erica Mallery-Blythe is associated with both camps.

    When one looks at the " Recognising ES and EHS" section, any sympathy I [I]may[i/] have had with these people just vanished: the list of symptoms could be caused by, a bottle of good wine, a bottle of bad wine, a looming deadline or, frankly, as Marvin would say, it's just life......

    Na, tin foil fools.

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    1. pierce
      Reply Icon
      Pint

      Re: In princinple, what is the difference.....

      wifi is 2.4GHz (or 5.7Ghz for some flavors of N). FM radio is 87-108Mhz, about 20 times lower frequency. Wifi is much lower power, I believe the allowable transmiitter power is around 20mW (0.02 watts), while an FM radio transmitter might be 20,000 watts.

      (beer, because everything goes better with beer)

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