back to article Key evidence in Assange case dissolves

The case against Wikileaks founder Julian Assange may be on the brink of collapse following claims from the defence team that the central piece of evidence used in the case does not contain Assange’s DNA. According to details that have emerged in a 100-page police report submitted after witnesses were interviewed and forensic …

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Holmes

If it's not on...

I thought one of the reasons that JA was accused of rape was that he didn't use a condom when requested. So, now, there IS a condom, but any DNA it contains doesn't match JA.

Maybe this is a slam dunk double negative proof of JA's guilt: the non-existent condom contains non-matching DNA therefore, should a condom have existed, it MUST, conversely, contain JA's DNA.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: If it's not on...

Slightly more complicated.

1. He used it when requested initially.

2. In one case he continued after it burst and in another case he "woke" up the woman who was asleep by starting without one and continued despite being requested to stop immediately.

However, the encounter with the condom (step 1) in both cases was fully consensual so even if it is HIS DNA it proves nothing as the point of the case is "2" where he did not use it and refused to stop when requested.

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aid@logic.org.uk

For the second woman, it's not correct to state that he was requested to stop immediately. From the victim's interview record,

"They fell asleep and she woke by feeling him penetrate her. She immediately asked 'are you wearing anything' and he answered 'you'. She told him 'you better not have HIV' and he replied 'of course not'. She felt it was too late. He was already inside her and she let him continue."

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Mushroom

Re: aid@logic.org.uk

So she consented then. Both before by having sex with him in bed and after by letting him continue. How is there even a case here?

And the 'continued after a condom burst' is even more rediculous. How do you prove he knew it had burst, and even if it had, how is that even a crime? He is already in the situation at that point.

Both of these cases are his word versus theirs and there is no supporting evidence. It's quite clearly a political fit up.

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Re: aid@logic.org.uk

"So she consented then. Both before by having sex with him in bed and after by letting him continue. How is there even a case here?"

Giving consent once does not issue a license for future fornication, willy nilly. Each liaison must be considered on its own merits, much like how each extradition case must be considered on its own merits.

Letting him continue doesn't help the no consent argument, granted. But your reasoning that previous consent in any way grants consent for future jubilation is wrong.

And in this case the main complaint was that Assange refused to be tested afterwards, anyway.

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Mushroom

Re: aid@logic.org.uk

If im in bed with someone and they let me have sex with them, I dont ask for explicit permission to start again. Its taken as a given that consent has been given. They have the option of withdrawing consent, but they need to communicate the fact....'No, Stop' is the commonly accepted method....

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Re: aid@logic.org.uk

Providing they are conscious, you mean?

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Re: aid@logic.org.uk

that is just stupid, in your world do you need to fill out large amounts of paperwork signed in triplicate with a photo copy of their id and birth certificate before each session of fornication? you have sex, you are sleeping in the same bed, future sex is assumed and must be explicitly countermanded.

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Stop

Re: aid@logic.org.uk

"you have sex, you are sleeping in the same bed, future sex is assumed and must be explicitly countermanded."

It's not about being officious and taking a softly-softly approach. I'll spell out what the problem is here.

The women consented to sex with a condom. Assange thought it perfectly acceptable to slip in without a condom while she was unconscious. If she was conscious, and knew what he was doing, then fair game. Deciding to going bareback after a condom was used earlier in the evening is something I would certainly discuss with a partner beforehand, wouldn't you? Why didn't Assange? Why did he think a condom was a necessary part of their festivities earlier which can now be done away with?

Subsequently, yes, she granted consent. But giving consent for sex without a condom after the guy is already inside you is a bit like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted with regards to protecting yourself from something nasty except pregnancy (and hell, even that is possible, with the leftovers from an earlier encounter unless the guy has dredged his sea monster).

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Re: aid@logic.org.uk

"If you are having sex and they fall asleep it doesnt mean you have to stop."

I probably would though, I'd be terribly disappointed.

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Re: aid@logic.org.uk

Think it's rather naive to say that because permission has been given once "... future sex is assumed and must be explicitly countermanded." How long does this "consent" last? Until one or the other leaves bed? What happens is they return? Is there a time limit on it?

I agree that requiring consent every time is a little excessive, but assuming this was the next day/morning *and* the girl was asleep when he started, then at the very least it rather despicible behaviour. True, once the girl awoke she didn't seem to mind, so claiming "rape" after was a little too late, but even so...

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Re: If it's not on...

but shirley when our US shill bowls up at the local nick with her tale of woe and flops out said used johnny as evidence, and said johnny is subsequently found to be an assange free zone, her already iffy tale starts to look... well 'a bit crap' is pitting it mildly.

having a piece of absolutely 'one in ten billion' chance of being wrong evidence is all very well, but when that evidence turns out to be nothing of the kind, kinda makes you ask the question, if that's crap, what else is crap in this story.

at least someone should look at the warrant and mebbe think about the decision to extradite

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'No, Stop' is the commonly accepted method....

... so saying nothing, thinking about it, pressing charges, withdrawing charges, discussing with a prosecutor and reinstating charges.... not so common then :-)

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Paris Hilton

Re: aid@logic.org.uk

@tuseroni

" your world ..."

That world is Sweden, where it is a standing joke that all acts of sex must be agreed upon by both parties lawyers and duly notarised prior to any act.

Really, the law is that bad, which is why it is so easy to abuse.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: aid@logic.org.uk

> I agree that requiring consent every time is a little excessive, but assuming this was the next day/morning *and* the girl was asleep when he started

If you've never woken up to find your lover making love to you, then I feel really sorry for you, your life is the poorer for this lack. Waking up like this is the most magical of experiences.

Of course it entails an element of risk, I can well understand that waking up to find someone having sex with you when you don't want them much be a horrible and shocking experience. So you'd better be damn sure your advances are going to be welcome.

If you've spend the evening making love and fallen asleep in each others arm, and especially if this hasn't just been a one night drunken fling, then I'd tend to assume that the consent from the previous night was still in place. If you don't get the desired response then you'd better be prepared to stop. But that's always the case. Consent or willing participation can be withdrawn at any point.

I can't comment of this particular case, since I don't know enough about what was happening between the people involved.

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FAIL

Re: aid@logic.org.uk

"....It's quite clearly a political fit up." Except the UK courts considered the actions and decided the warrant was correct in that it was for questioning relating to NONCONSENSUAL sex, i.e., rape.

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Re: Re: If it's not on...

"but shirley when our US shill...." Lol! So amusing how someone that was previosuly considered a respected journalist amongst the Liberati turns into a "US shill" the minute they expose a little unpleasant truth about one of the Liberati's holy people!

"....and said johnny is subsequently found to be an assange free zone..." Nothing of the sort. This is a RUMOUR started by the defence, the forensic report has not been made public or offered in a trial yet. That's all despite the fact that it is still a tiny point as A$$nut has already admitted having unconsensual and unprotected sex with the ex-loved-by-the-Liberati journo. Duh!

"....someone should look at the warrant...." But that is the biggest laugh in the sad little charade the A$$nut faithful are putting om. There was due consideration here in the UK, A$$nut exhausted all his appeals and legal avenues, and then bunked off to hide in the embassy of a semi-dictator. Despite all these supposed holes in the prosecution case, A$$nut still doesn't want to go to trial.

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potato potAto

you say respected journalist i say CIA operative :-)

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Mushroom

Re: aid@logic.org.uk

But the UK court doesnt consider the actions at all. How could they - the UK court has been presented with no evidence. Unfortunately all that they consider is is the extradition warrant valid. This is one of the big problmes with the current system - especially with extraditions to the USA.

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Boffin

@ Richto. Re: aid@logic.org.uk

"Regardless of if they are concious. If you are having sex and they fall asleep it doesnt mean you have to stop."

Dude, if a girl falls asleep on you mid sex, then I'd say you either drugged her, meaning rape, or you are just that bad in the sack that she's too bored to even attempt to fake an orgasm. She's just playing possum hoping you'd take the hint.

Seriously, where do you get the idea that this is ok?

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(Written by Reg staff)

Re: @ Richto. Re: aid@logic.org.uk

Hi Ian - I've binned his comment and hence your response... (for clarity's sake, as it wouldn't have made sense on its own....)

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Re: If it's not on...

Wow... Another CSI expurt. Let's see if we can't break it down...

First the DNA evidence, if it exits, only confirms. The lack of DNA evidence doesn't imply innocence.

Second, there are many things that can degrade the DNA to the point that it becomes inconclusive.

Third, Assanage doesn't deny that he was there. His defense team acknowledges this in their affirmative defense by claiming that there was consensual sex.

With respect to the law, the extradition hearing is based on determining if the EAW is valid. It is not to try Assange in a UK court, or to second guess the evidence against Assange. This is why he should go to Sweden to face his accusers. So that there can be a trial.

If this were a conspiracy sponsored by th US government, they could always charge him, raise an extradiition request to the UK and ask Sweden to drop their case. But that hasn't happened has it? Remember Occam's Razor...

But don't let that stop you in your quest to save St. Julian.

The simple truth is that the defense team is grasping at straws in an effort to raise political pressure in the UK. Clearly that is not going to happen since St. Julian decided to thumb his nose at the justice system in the UK.

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Re: potato potAto

Ahhh Matt, LTNS, still talking bollocks i see :-D

nice to see some things in this life can be depended on

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FAIL

Re: Re: potato potAto

OK, Naughtyhorse, let's see your "evidence" that Anna Ardin, allegedly "Miss A" from the Swedish complaint, is a CIA operative. Go on, amuse me. That desperate accusation has been all over the leftie blogs for two years now without a single corroborating fact to back it up. The one claim that seems to be the source of the "CIA operative" myth is that anti-Semite-friendly, leftie-blogging, pro-PLO, Castro-groupie and self-admitted socialist (yeah, really sounds like CIA material to me - NOT!) Anna Ardin upset the Cuban authorities with her pro-Christian activities during a visit to Cuba. But if you'd bothered to read more than just the leftie hate sites, you might have noticed that Anna Ardin is also a Christian activist.

But, please, if you actually have some new information to offer, that even suggests in the slightest that Anna Ardin (or alleged "Miss B" Sofia Wilen either) is a CIA spy then post it. Or just stop wasting bandwidth and go back to IndyMedia.

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Headmaster

Re: If it's not on...

" The lack of DNA evidence doesn't imply innocence"

Let me just correct your logic for you. "when there is a lack of DNA, when you would expect there to be DNA, does imply innocence."

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This post has been deleted by its author

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Coat

Was this information about the contents of the condom posted to...

WillyLeaks?

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Facepalm

Re: Was this information about the contents of the condom posted to...

Leaky wicks

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The Aboriginals

I found it funny that the Aboriginals gave him a passport that doesn't work, which is just as useful as a condom with a hole in it, which is what got him into this whole mess.

Almost poetic

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FAIL

Daily Mail -- non-report

It would have been nice to have had a story based on the 100 page defence report, rather than the Daily Mail teaser.

It does not say whether this "evidence" was part of the original police investigation, which appeared to result in JA's release with no case to answer.. Or was this condom submitted as part of the later (political) extradition shenanigans?

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Flame

Ironic that by taking asylum in Ecuador to avoid extradition to avoid being put in jail, he broke bail, for which he will be charged and sentenced and will end up in jail. And I'd still lay money on it being easier for the Merkins to extradite from the UK than from Sweden.

Assange has made a ridicule of Wikileaks and should be banished back to Australia just for that.

Long live freedom of speech. Down with self serving publicity seeking twats. (and he was, even before these allegations)

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Boffin

Re: Velv

"....And I'd still lay money on it being easier for the Merkins to extradite from the UK than from Sweden...." Even easier if the Swedes do drop their case. A$$nut can still be arrested for bail jumping and the US can then issue an extradition request with only the UK courts to worry about, not Sweden's and the UK's. How long do you think it will be before the A$$nut groupies realise this and start shrieking that the case shouldn't be dropped and he should actually be given his day in court?

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But

who in hell _keeps_ a condom full of "DNA" in the first place and why ?

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Coat

I can think of only one case I've heard of.

Many years ago I read a memoir by an old fleet street hack. At one point he whilst working as an junior editor he was faced with an irate prostitute complaining about an exposé of her brothel. She had with her...ahem... "DNA evidence" to proving that despite what he'd said, the reporter had not "made his excuses and left".

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Mushroom

Re: But

I guess it's better than storing it on your wardrobe like Monica?

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This post has been deleted by its author

Keep in mind...

That the message is coming from Assange's defence team, who have a vested interest in the language of the message that gets lodged in the public subconscious. They are trying to stretch what the report said from 'does not conclusively contain his DNA'* (i.e. forensics cannot prove it's his muck) into 'does not contain his DNA'* which sounds like evidence in his favour. This will undoubtedly still weaken the prosecution's case, but even if it does get dropped the circus will go on as he seeks to avoid going to jail for bail violation.

*Paraphrasing, not actual quote

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Re: Keep in mind...

But this story is NOT based on the report or any "message coming from Assange's defence team,". Its source seems to be a single sentence from the Daily Mail, hence the "alleged". If you know more can you please share the references.

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Unhappy

Oops

My mistake, I thought the DM had a direct quote from someone. Mistook their sexing up the facts for spin from team Assange. I still stand by <cannot prove condom has Assange DNA> != "does not contain his DNA"

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Re: Oops

But we don't know which condom. There were reports of two condoms being examined. One had no DNA, the other had DNA matching that recovered from the vagina of one of the women. The DM does not make clear whether they are referring to the original reports, or a recent statement/report from JA's defence.

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Assange seems to be the victim of international conspiracy. His only crime seems to bringing a LITTLE transparency to the abuse of power by the US military in Iraq. His main enemy is the US military for showing the videos of the US soldiers shooting innocent Iraqi civilians/journalists in cold blood in day light. That is a war crime that indicts the top commanders of the US military for turning a blind eye to such abuses. IMHO, the world could use a lot of Assanges to restore some sanity to the abuse of power by power-holders, the 1% doing crazy things to the 99% and getting away with it with a blind eye from corporate media.

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'His only crime...'

Was rape, allegedly.

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Mushroom

Neither of the things he has been accused of constitute rape in any commonly accepted meaning of the word...

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@RICHTO

Actually, having sex with a woman while she sleeps, knowing she would not have consented had she been awake, is accepted as rape in the UK. The judge went over all this during the endless extradition appeals.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @RICHTO

Except that she did, in fact, consent to it.

Anonymous since I find blathering on people's intimate lives a bit tasteless.

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Mushroom

Re: @RICHTO

There is no evidence that he knew she woudl not consent - and in fact she did.

If she was really worried about HIV then she could have told him to stop before the end - and removed 99% of the risk - regardless that he had already started.

There are two options here - either these were politically driven claims - or these 2 women were just pissed off that he got one over on both of them during the same visit and tried to get revenge....

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Err, no it was "coercion", allegedly - which was already a strecth, considering the woman consented.

Try again, Anonym Shill.

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Re: Norman123

"....His only crime...." His only crime he is wanted for questioning and possible charging in Sweden is two counts of rape. He is wanted in the UK for bail jumping. He already has a criminal record for hacking back in Australia.

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Stop

Re: @RICHTO

Well, evidence (or lack of) is something that would be examined in a trial. The point remains: what he's accused of is rape. I'm not saying he's guilty; I don't know.

According to the allegations, by the time she was able to refuse, it was too late. She'd already been exposed to his cooties. It doesn't follow she'd have consented had she been awake when he started.

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