back to article Climate change linked to extreme weather surge

A pair of climate scientists has examined the thorny question of whether the cluster of recent extreme weather events has been caused by increasing global temperatures. Their answer? No proof, but it seems likely. Dim Coumou and Stefan Rahmstorf of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research say that the jury is still …

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  1. Great Bu

    Asking the wrong questions.....

    This whole climate change debate is asking the wrong questions. We should not be worrying about whether the weather (see what I did there ?) is getting warmer or whether this is caused by mankind or not.

    We should be asking - 'If the climate is getting warmer, should we care ?'

    If the only consequences of climate change are that Norfolk is under water and BBQ season is longer then I am all for it.

    There is a lot of poorly evidenced catastrophising* about the consequences of this or that level of temperature change which is used to justify various legislative alterations aimed at reducing the change and this mis-informs any debate using statistics.

    *if it's not a real word already, then I'm copyrighting it......

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Weasels

    "we may be on the cusp of a period in which the probability of such events increases rapidly, due primarily to the influence of projected increases in greenhouse gas concentrations." And they quoted someone else, so they don't have to put their own name on the quote - very sneaky.

    Weasel sords kowtowing to the research grant committe. Nothing more and nothing less.

    The base point notion of "as expected in a stationary climate" is so completely bogus as to defy coprehension. No-one, not even the AGW zealots believe there is such a thing as a stationary climate, and no-one not even the anti-AGW zealots proposes that there is such a thing.The planet is gradually warming, coming out of an ice-age. The rest is background noise.

    Dweeb

    1. NomNomNom

      Re: Weasels

      "kowtowing to the research grant committe"

      baseless conspiracy theory. Why do they care what your imaginary "grant comitte" think? They've already got the grant. You think "grant comitte"s are so facile that they hand out grants based on some byline from a previous paper rather than the text of a grant proposal? You think such a conspiracy even makes sense?

      "No-one, not even the AGW zealots believe there is such a thing as a stationary climate"

      Yes there is. It's when the climate doesn't change very much over a period of time. It can even be relative.

      ".The planet is gradually warming, coming out of an ice-age."

      We finished warming out of an ice age 10,000 years ago. The planet's climate has been *relatively stationary* since then.

  3. Xris M
    Happy

    Should we care?

    Maybe, maybe not.

    While current estimates of change (50cm (ish) sea level rise, increases in precipitation and extreme weather events) pose a level of risk the problem is the uncertainty of triggering one of 736 doomsday scenarios e.g. collapse of the West Antarctica Ice Sheet, disrupting the ocean conveyor, methane clathrate release, in which case we could be royally f**ked.

  4. mememine69
    Meh

    All REAL planet lovers are former climate blame believers. Get ahead of the curve.

    Since the entire scientific world agreed that climate change was real, why didn’t the millions of them in the global scientific community, “ACT” like they all agreed it was going to be the worst crisis imaginable, outside of a comet hit? Three were dozens of climate change protesters and NONE of the millions from the science world to march with them? Why? Could consensus as well as crisis be exaggerated?

    Scientific exaggeration trumps any scientific consensus.

    This is all good news to real planet lovers who are happy a crisis was avoided for whatever reason.

    Pollution is real, CO2 death threats to billions of children was a crime.

    Meanwhile, the entire world of SCIENCE had allowed bank-funded and corporate-run “CARBON TRADING STOCK MARKETS” to trump 3rd world fresh water relief, starvation rescue and 3rd world education for just over 26 years of insane attempts at climate CONTROL.

    1. NomNomNom

      Re: All REAL planet lovers are former climate blame believers. Get ahead of the curve.

      "Three were dozens of climate change protesters and NONE of the millions from the science world to march with them? Why?"

      I bet if they had you'd be smearing them as "activists"

    2. Some Beggar
      Facepalm

      Re: All REAL planet lovers are former climate blame believers. Get ahead of the curve.

      Baseless conspiracy theories are always more convincing when they're TYPED with random UPPER CASE emphasis.

      Herp derp derp.

  5. haloburn

    Seriously is someone posting scepticalscience as a credible source of information on this? Really?

    The question is sensitivity to CO2, everyone agrees that a doubling of CO2 will lead to a direct increase of about 1 degree. Thereafter we are talking about feedbacks with the CAGW mob claiming a positive feedback of anywhere from 2-6 times depending on what computer models they use. The models believe clouds are transparent to IR and have little to no feedback, in reality the actual feedbacks appear to be 0.6 or a negative feedback as has been demonstrated in the actual temperature readings. The straw man argument is that to not take the chicken little approach we somehow deny climate is changing and that anthropogenic increase in CO2 has a contribution; it’s time to grow up.

    As for increased extreme weather – evidence please? Or is this another case of the Himalayan glaciers are going to melt in 20 years scare.

    1. NomNomNom

      skepticalscience is a credible source of information because they cite their sources and have a track record of properly understanding and representing them.

      "everyone agrees that a doubling of CO2 will lead to a direct increase of about 1 degree"

      and everyone agrees that it will lead to further indirect warming through:

      a) reduction in albedo as ice melts - more sunlight absorbed = warmer

      b) warmer air holds more moisture - increase water vapor in the atmosphere - water vapor is a greenhouse gas = warmer

      You've missed that because you jumped straight to clouds. Don't mangle the uncertainty of cloud feedback with water vapor and albedo feedback as if you can start from 1C. Add the certain positive feedbacks first THEN add the uncertainties in cloud feedback.

      1. Daren Nestor

        "a) reduction in albedo as ice melts - more sunlight absorbed = warmer"

        Melting and re-freezing ice, at least in the short term, increases albedo.

        "b) warmer air holds more moisture - increase water vapor in the atmosphere - water vapor is a greenhouse gas = warmer"

        This is the dangerous one from a temperature perspective.

        I'd like to see more of this kind of research. One of my bugbears is that any claims that extreme weather is more extreme seems to rely on dollar amounts, when the reasons that dollar amounts of damage increase is because we've plonked a load of buildings in really stupid places, or populations have expanded massively. This paper seems to have managed not to fall into this trap.

        A fantastic example of this is the size of Miami from 1970-present, and the massive increases in dollar damage even though the events (hurricanes) themselves were generally well below "worst recorded" levels.

    2. Tim Parker

      "Seriously is someone posting scepticalscience as a credible source of information on this? Really?"

      Interesting.... your problem being what, precisely ? Does your view of a lack of credibility extend to the numerous references from there, or merely their own output ?

      "The models believe clouds are transparent to IR and have little to no feedback,"

      "The" models.... what on Earth is that supposed to mean ? All climate models are based on this ? There is a little sealed box somewhere with 'the' models in them, unchanging and never questioned ? There are models which have cloud modelling in them and other that don't - there are models *solely* of cloud interactions, of cloud and sea interactions, of cloud and wind interactions, of cloud and seed interactions.

      " in reality the actual feedbacks appear to be 0.6 or a negative feedback as has been demonstrated in the actual temperature readings. "

      There are ranges of feedback for different cloud types in different circumstances, both negative and positive. This is dealt with in the scientific literature and various models which include cloud models (not all models do, or do so as a lumped response with other factors).

      "The straw man argument is that to not take the chicken little approach we somehow deny climate is changing and that anthropogenic increase in CO2 has a contribution;"

      You're not seriously using a straw man argument to prove your point about a straw man argument are you ?

      " it’s time to grow up."

      Ah - and here we agree....

      "As for increased extreme weather – evidence please? "

      The article, and study, are referring to the *clustering* of extreme weather events, and whether there is anything that can be said about them. There are a number of studies regarding numbers and types of weather events, linked to in both the article and (apparently) the study. There are pictures, taken from the article regarding this.

      Why don't you actually go and read some of them before you ask for 'evidence please' ? If they are insufficient in your mind, you can always come back and explain why you think so - some, perhaps many, of the people reading these comments might actually be interesting if you come up with something.

  6. Keep Refrigerated
    Mushroom

    Global Warming is a false dilema...

    What we really should be worrying about is our nearest star, Sol, is burning approximately 600 million tons of hydrogen per second.

    When that runs out, the earth is cooked. We need to find a way to control that!

    1. Nick Collingridge
      Facepalm

      Re: Global Warming is a false dilema...

      I hate it when primary school kids think they've got something to contribute to this debate...

      1. Luther Blissett

        Re: Global Warming is a false dilema...

        So you didn't notice the paradox of a false apposition ironically wrapped in a conceit?

    2. Matt Bryant Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Global Warming is a false dilema...

      ".....When that runs out, the earth is cooked....." Shirley, that should be frozen, not cooked? Cra*p! Best burn some more fossil fuels to warm things up before the Sun burns out!

  7. Justin Ert
    Big Brother

    "Disasters to drive public opinion?"

    Nature Climate Change, which as we all know is strictly for advocates of carbon price floor economics, and whose target audience is generally, but not exclusively (heaven forbid) sceptiphobic believers.

    As Judith Curry says:

    "The substantial interest in attributing extreme weather events to global warming seems rooted in the perceived need for some sort of a disaster to drive public opinion and the political process in the direction of taking action on climate change."

    Indeed. This coal face between policy advocacy and science is mined by Nature Climate Change and the results are papers from activist scientists that inevitably conclude ambiguously - as the Register has it- "No proof, but it seems likely." Such is the new probabilism that has infected politico-scientific discourse in the wake of the precautionary principle and the IPCC's "likelihood-ometer" metric for possible future climates.

    Sadly though, this information cascades, the message gets amplified, just as planned - and often unknowingly - by the type of uncritical churnalism such as this lazy piece. And we even have the caption "...recent weather has been crap" to assist in "driving public opinion" and raising awareness. But where would we be without the cascade? With more exterme weather? Maybe, maybe not.

    I would say: Out of character for the Register. Not worth more than two ratings blobs.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Disasters to drive public opinion?"

      Sorry, but anyone who introduces a personal, unproven opinion with "as we all know," tars others' opinions as "activist," and salts in ad hominem attacks such as "uncritical churnalism" loses all credibility, IMHO.

      1. Justin Ert
        Big Brother

        Re: "Disasters to drive public opinion?"

        Complete cobblers I'm afraid, in the gentlist possible way. Firstly, Stefan Rahmstorf is an activist, ipso facto, as he is a member of several political organisations such as this one:

        http://www.wbgu.de/en/council-members/

        An advocay group for global "sustainable development" no less, that uses the climate change narrative as a tool to lobby government and influence policy. Interestingly, even the wiki have this to say about their activism:

        " In the most recent flagship report, the WBGU dealt with the transformation to a low-carbon society..."

        But ironically Stefan Rahmstorf is no stranger to perpetrating nasty ad hominem attacks himself, and was quite recently found guilty by a German court and ordered to "stop violating a journalists persoanl rights":

        http://notrickszone.com/2011/11/07/german-court-orders-stefan-rahmstorf-to-cease-and-desist-violating-journalists-personal-rights/

        Lastly, describing this piece as "uncritical churnalism" is not an ad hominem. Do you know what ad hominem is? Because this is not an example of it.

        However, had the journalist who churned and contributed to the information cascade actually researched the Nature Climate Change publication, when it was founded and why, who the primary contributors are... and then perhaps a cursory glance at the recent political activities, advocacy and behaviour of Stefan Rahmstorf himself, they might - whoever they are - have approached the piece from a more enlightened angle.

        As I inferred in my original post, I have a higher level of expectation of the Register.

  8. Jim Birch
    Black Helicopters

    It's the bullets, not the gun...

    Anyone who thinks it's the H2O not the CO2 that's important needs to be able to describe how to raise the CO2 level without raising the H2O level. They are coupled. In a simple column model of the atmosphere this is a clear no brainer, CO2 drives H2O. In the real atmosphere this would be the "default" effect that you would expect if other things tend to balance out. You'd want a good reason to believe otherwise - well, I would anyway, because random processes tend to work like that: dice rolls work as physically expected, dead things rot, etc. Strange attractors are unusual.

    For the people who haven't totally departed from actual physical science (into flat out denial, wild conspiracy theories, etc) the most likely process that might throw a strange attractor are clouds which are made of water and reflect sunlight back to space. It's logically possible that increased H2O might mean more clouds and stop or reduce the heating. This is, of course, a simplistic take on clouds, since clouds are dynamic phenomena. More water vapour does not make more condensation if the temperature is increased. This isn't something we can deduce from simple theory, we have to go out and measure it in the real atmosphere. It's hard to measure, since we need a statistical results. The result - to date - is that the cloud feedback is not going to stop global warming but more work is needed to get better numbers on the cloud effect. Nailing this effect down is one important experiments that is being designed into current meteorological satellites.

    Of course, there's another extremely powerful experimental result that demonstrates that clouds won't stop global warming: the global temperature record. The fact is: CO2 is increasing, water vapour is increasing, and temperature is increasing. And, when known confounding factors like aerosols, the El Nino cycle and net solar insolation are removed from the global temperature record it shows a remarkably steady increase, just like the CO2 level, see link below.

    http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/12/06/the-real-global-warming-signal/

    1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: It's the bullets, not the gun...

      Wrong gun and wrong bullets, tbh. No-one is denying that global warming has occured and is likley to carry on happening, though some think it is a cyclical process and we're just as likely to go into a new ice age as all burn up. What the disagreement is about is are we to blame, and does our suspicion that we might have a part in the process justify crippling our development. By blaming ourselves and acting rashly we could ensure our own destruction in the case of a new ice age.

      If we do slip into another ice age then it makes an even better case to build more nuke power stations as a new ice age means a definite need for lots of electrical power, if just for heating alone. And if we're actually contributing to the problem through burning fossil fuels then nukes make sense again as they will alow a much easier conversion to electric vehicles than any other option (please don't pretend wind, solar and wave generation are going to even make up half the extra power needed to replace our increasing levels of traffic).

      /This is me not holding much hope of the Greens agreeing that nukes make sense either way.

  9. legal61
    Meh

    The UN scientists

    "Their answer? No proof, but it seems likely." Scientists are supposed to be ALL about PROOF. Shame on them.

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