Don't bother with that degree, say IT pros

To be fair, I don't think that discipline problem is unique to bedroom coders. I've seen similar attitudes coming from those with formal training. An arsehole is an arsehole, whatever their background.

thats cos Java

is Fucking Shit

I agree that some bedroom coders produce crap but the degree-bearing ones aren't any better. I say this as someone who's self-taught and has just spent the whole morning fixing bugs in code produced by someone who has a degree. I am, however, in the process of getting a degree to keep HR departments happy. So far I've learnt that I don't like Java, but as you say that's not the point if you're being paid to produce it.

As someone with an IT degree who regularly interviews to hire developers, I can say that I don't personally rate IT degrees much at all.

I agree that a degree should be more than just about learning a subject; a true degree teaches you how to solve problems, not how to solve *a* problem (that's the job of GCSE).

My biggest issue is that IT degrees seem to be simplifying and removing a lot of the deeper knowledge that I require in all of my developers. I don't care if you only work in Java/.NET, if you can't discuss the heap and the stack at a conceptual level and you don't know what an "abstract" function does, you're going to need to blow me away with your understanding of your chosen framework.

I'd much rather hire someone with 3 years of industry experience than a degree, because if they can talk about it, they've gone out to learn it themselves. But, as a lot of people have said, it's very rare a non-graduate gets passed the CV filter stage.

I've been taught programming...

> and have seen quite some horror's produced by various "bedroom coders"

Similarly, I've seen some total dogs' breakfasts served up by formally-taught coders. Including academics[1].

> I told him of course he could hand his assignment in in C#, so long as he did not

> mind failing the course

Was this a Java course, or a programming course?

> He found this unreasonable

As do I, unless it was specifically a Java course.

> I suggested my attitude reflected that of a potential employer or customer

My experience of both employers and customers is that almost all are entirely amenable to the programmer picking the tools to solve the problem, so long as he can justify his decisions. I would suggest that your attitude is representative only of a few dogmatic employers.

Vic.

[1] I had one University lecturer who was introduced to us as a real high-flier, who wrote code so complex that computers weren't available that could do his code justice, so he set up a company to build his own computers. When I later went on to work for the company that supplied him the processors, he was known as "that nob that can't write code to fit on a sensible number of cores"...

An Interesting Account

I spent some years writing quick and dirty 'job doers' when problems needed solutions yesterday. Yet your account struck certain chords with me. The candidates with whom you crossed swords were clearly not cut out to succeed, yet they had reached a University, I find that worrying in itself.

With a tiny bit of thought (gosh that is a rare concept) they would have realised that they can do this and pass or do that and fail. However, that would still only prove that can find the way through a simple maze to reach a self interest goal, e.g. do right pass, do wrong and fail - pretty straight forward logic gate to me.

My experience was of graduates overseas who replaced the qualified, time served trainees. As electronics technicians with a book they were possibly OK. perhaps even better than OK. Set them to fault find real equipment problems then please walk away it was going to be a long wait for progress, you might need not only a good meal but a bed for the night.

An IT graduate was set a straight forward process to create. Three months later masses of code and no output. Booted off him off and another practical chap did it in six weeks while still doing his day job. I guess the other one went to the NHS systems development team.

Time served practitioners at least know how to approach their work, possibly the questions to ask and the answers they need to progress the job.

Re: I taught programming

"He said but my implementation is more efficient, we said that was true, but that the assignment was to learn recursion. He said but my implementation is more efficient, we said that was true, but that the assignment was to learn recursion."

If he worked for you, and you worked for me. I would have quickly gave him YOUR job, because efficient code is required to make or save money. I want programmers that generate results, not follow the same old broken cookie cutter.

Schools often teach those formalized way of doing things, but they are not usually practical in the real world.

@Michael HF Wilkinson

I started programming in primary school, went through secondary school taking every IT class they had and breezed through it. Didnt bother going to uni. Got a job developing at a private investment bank on the strength of my predicted grades (didnt ever finish or hand in any coursework), and doubled my salary every 12-15 months until I was 22, then quit full time work on a salary enormously higher than any graduate was getting, and started freelancing for even more.

Aside from being up-to-date with the latest frameworks and teaching techniques, most uni graduates are hopelessly inept at solving real world problems until they've been working in the wild for a bit. Not saying they arent smart people - some of them are very smart. But having a degree is no yard-stick for how competent somebody is at solving a problem or applying abstract thinking through code.

I gather that the guy who handed in the iterative solution to your task may not have got the top marks, but probably went on to earn much more than your teachers salary?

You do need education

but there is flexibility in how you get it.

Degrees don't guarantee good performance in any filed, nor does exuberance. We all know self-taught programmers that are good and well papered people that are crap, but those are the exceptions.

What we do know is that if you go looking for good programmers amongst those with CS degrees then you have a far better chance of finding a good one than if you take random candidates from the pavement.

Ours is an industry of change and you need to work hard just to stay current. Good programmers invariably keep reading and keep experimenting through their lives. Those with a piece of paper see the degree as just a start and not the end of their education.