back to article Plods to get dot-uk takedown powers - without court order

Police in the UK could get new powers to suspend internet domain names without a court order if they're being used for illegal activity, under rules proposed to .uk registry manager Nominet. A Nominet volunteer policy team has recommended the creation of an "expedited" process for shutting down addresses when the police say " …

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  1. Suhana
    FAIL

    Failed again

    Gosh, I'm so happy the world at large is going to be a safer place because Plod can take down a .uk address.

    Although, I have to ask, isn't it remarkable easy to get a whatever-ever-you-bleeding-want address within seconds thus negating this faster than said Plod can apply to Nominet?

    Shh, don't tell teh crooks there are .cc addresses to be had for free.

  2. nigel 15
    Facepalm

    How long does it take to get an injunction anyway?

    the policy proposal makes frequent mention of the motivation being the need to expedite the process and criminal activity being committed in this time window.

    it would therefore seem self evident that any suspension should only last for a time appropriate for the police to obtain an injunction.

    more broadly to whole proposal is deeply worrying. who is going to be the arbiter of what is and what isn't appropriate. when the EDL plan a rally that turns into a protest who is going to decide if that is criminal or free speech. If paypal refuses to block payments to some organisation that is distasteful to the police who decides if it's ok to block that? Traditionally the courts make these decisions that's what they are there for.

    Of course they'd never block anyone or anything that might fight back.

    How long does it take to get an injunction anyway? The need to be swift is often used as an excuse for ignoring basic rights.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Mushroom

    Woah woah woah!!!

    Hang on a minute! Copyright infringement? That's NOT a 'serious organised crime', in fact it's not a crime at all. Copyright infringement is merely an infraction under CIVIL law and any powers given to the police should have no bearing on it whatsoever given that they enforce CRIMINAL law.

    The simple fact that several members of the 'MAFIAA'-backed 'FACT' are ex-police officers themselves should be setting alarm bells ringing when the police force (their old colleagues) are being given powers to enforce such action to directly represent of the commercial interests of a few select entertainment media corporations.

    Are the people in this country really so asleep that they can't see how comprehensively their freedoms are being sold to powerful companies? This is PURE Fascism in play right now, in plain sight.

    1. Ru
      Facepalm

      Not this tired old bullshit.

      If you take a piece of copyright work and either illegally duplicate and sell it, or illegally distribute it for free to the point where the copyright holder's business is impacted, you are breaking the law.

      The police have every right to confiscate the copies you've made of the work, the equipment you used to copy it, any money you made from it, they can arrest you and you can be prosecuted. You would be a criminal.

      There are other situations where copyright infringement becomes a criminal matter too. Go read a summary of the relevant acts.

      1. DR

        title

        You are missing the distinction between civil and criminal law.

      2. Ben Tasker

        Actually it can be Criminal

        Quite right about the distinction between Civil and Criminal law, but there is a cross over when it comes to Copyright Infringement;

        Copying a DVD = Civil Law

        Making 10,000 copies to sell = Criminal Law

        Massive copyright infringement for commercial reasons is a criminal matter, whilst mostly everything else is civil law.

        In either case, I'm not sure it should be on this list at all. It doesn't harm consumers as you generally pay less for a fake/copy (and if it's advertised as real then that would be fraud, which should be on the list).

        There's way too much scope for abuse, and it will be abused (probably quite quickly). As others mentioned, if the rule goes in it's going to be something else on the risk register.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Naive

    How totally Naïve of Alex Bowers to expect this not to be used as a path of least resistance. The law is the law, nothing should side step it! If there is an urgent drugs related matter, the Police need a court order. What's the difference here. They can get it fast if they really need it fast. Fact is law enforcement don't understand, nor care for the net, so it will simply be, if in doubt, shut it down. Nominet and their carefully constructed "issue group" are frankly spreading their legs wide open for the Police and Politicians here. Foolish and ignorant to the judicial system.

  5. Tony Green

    Here we go again

    If history teaches us nothing else, we should learn the lesson that whatever powers the police are given, they'll find a way to abuse them.

    I can just see the Met in particular using this to silence anybody critical of their trigger-happiness, ignoring of 'phone hacking, etc.

    1. david wilson

      @Tony Green

      >>"I can just see the Met in particular using this to silence anybody critical of their trigger-happiness, ignoring of 'phone hacking, etc."

      Yeah, right, because if they're bothered about their image, there couldn't be any possible publicity /downside/ to doing something like that, could there?

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    Ummm...

    This *COULD* have been done properly - take out all less-serious crimes from their list and only suspend a domain for maximum 48 hours (better set the limit at less, but I won't insist).

    If the police cannot get a court order within that time, the domain should be unblocked and owner should automatically be sent a template for complaining to the relevant authorities.

  7. Alan Firminger

    Petty

    Everyone who intends dodgy practices via the web, knowing the rules, will use .com . The tiny extra expense will be readily absorbed. By addressing only .uk.co it is only the tiny operators who will be affected. So what has that got to do with SOCA ?

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    How Quickly will

    websites critical of the police be shut down?

    We have juducial oversight for a reason, its to stop some numbnuts 5 GCSE grade C plod making decisions way above there intellectual pay grade.

    1. MMcA
      FAIL

      GCSE English grading

      "How Quickly will websites critical of the police be shut down? We have juducial oversight for a reason, its to stop some numbnuts 5 GCSE grade C plod making decisions way above there intellectual pay grade."

      quickly

      judicial

      it's

      their

      (D-. See me later.)

      1. lpopman
        Headmaster

        titular disenoblement

        Also numb-nuts should be hyphenated.

        When there is the slightest smell of fascism, the (grammar-) nazis will appear.

      2. david wilson

        @GCSE English grading

        >>"(D-. See me later.)"

        I'd have thought these days it'd probably be at least a B.

        After all, the large majority of the words were OK.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If this goes through

    How long many minutes do you think it will be before FITwatch suddenly disappears? Because monitoring of the police and their activities probably doesn't make many plod's happy I expect.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Happy

    Seems fair enough

    DNS is just about who you trust as root, it's up to everybody what they use, just like the many recent certificate problems.

    I run a server which has all TLD available for purchase, just $50 for google.com + Youtube.com + wikipedia.org, one time offer. It's on the internet and anyone can query it, they just have to make the connection.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      So my comment gets downvoted

      Then the Register.co.uk gets hacked on a basis of DNS trust which has no security.

      The very site the comments are posted on, and their logins are recorded as they attempted to hand over cookies. Why does anyone trust DNS?, it's the worst part of security.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Pffff

    The quote "consumer harm" sums it all up really...

    Won`t some one think of the children?!!

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    no debate

    I just won't buy .uk. Simple as that. .com or another suffix is fine. I don't do anything wrong, but hey, I won't support a police state either.

  13. Purlieu

    They slipped that last one in

    counterfeiting, fraud, prostitution, money laundering, blackmail and .... shock horror ....copyright infringement

    copyright infringement ?

    yeah that's on a par with ounterfeiting, fraud, prostitution, money laundering, and blackmail

    except that while the ose are criminal offenses, copyright infringement is not

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Excuse me, which tree is this?

    Apologies if this has already been noticed by the vast majority of commenters and appropriate action taken, but for those who may have missed it, the very last paragraph of this article reads:

    "In the meantime, UK internet users are encouraged to submit their opinions. The draft report, and information for filing a comment, can be found here [http://www.nominet.org.uk/news/latest?contentId=8617]."

    Isn't that the tree you should be barking up to?

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Good point. Tree barked at!

      Oddly, the draft recommendations "51980" don't make any reference to IP infringement, while the previous executive summaries did.

  15. John Savard

    Appropriate

    Well, if someone posted my credit card details on the Web, I'd want the police to be able to take them off again before anyone could see them. Even if the card would still have to be cancelled.

    There are appropriate cases where there is no time to lose - the recent Wikileaks news item, where the lives of people heroically exposing human-rights violations have been put in danger give an example of that.

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge
      FAIL

      Wrong.

      If your credit card details or any other 'juicy' data was on a website long enough for the police to notice, than they've been up long enough for everyone interested to find them as well.

      This is really talking about situations where the police don't want to bother getting a court order - in other words, the occasions where they don't think they can get one.

      So, that's when they don't have enough (or any) evidence and when they have no intention of actually trying to catch and prosecute someone but just want to 'disrupt' their activities.

      The goal of the issues group was supposedly about sites selling fakes or non-extant product, eg tickets to Glastonbury or the Olympics.

      There are already ways to do that, and those ways include methods of actually catching the people responsible.

      Getting the domain closed down won't help catch anybody.

  16. g e

    immediate consumer harm

    So.

    Big media, then.

  17. Matt Bryant Silver badge
    Stop

    Please, stop the hyperventilating!

    Got five lines into the article and realised this is just hyped up non-news. This is not new powers granted to the police, this is not new laws, this is NOTHING more than a RECOMMENDATION from a policy group with zero actual powers. FFS, can some of you tinfoil wearers please get a clue and READ the article before tryping (sic) on and on and ON about how it's a "police state", 1984, etc, etc, etc. What a hilarious bunch of kneejerkers. Major down-vote for the alarmist tone of the headline, more suited to the Daily Mirror/Mail/Sun than The Reg.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      @Matt - Nominet are suggesting that they could just turn off domains on request.

      No court oversight, no legal powers to do so.

      Someone in Nominet set this group up to make this suggestion, and Nominet are the company who would act upon it.

      The Issues Group included several ISPs and a couple of privacy campaigners, all of whom said "DEAR GOD NO" to the proposal.

      There are also two police representatives and some academics.

      It all smells very fishy - the concept looks oddly similar to corporate suicide to me.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Arbitrary power

    "Police in the UK could get new powers to suspend internet domain names without a court order if they're being used for illegal activity..."

    ...according to whom, exactly? This reads as if the plod will be able to shut anyone down on a whim, and then argue about it at leisure - for months or years, judging by the glacial rate at which our laughingly called "justice" system operates.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      That's exactly what Nominet are suggesting.

      Nominet are suggesting that any "trusted law enforcement entity" can just ask them to close down think-of-the-children.co.uk and they will.

      No court oversight, no evidence - just "Please turn off this domain because we want you to."

      They say it's supposed to be a "last resort", but they would have no way of knowing if they actually are the last resort or the first.

      The ISPs think it's a stupid idea.

      That's why it's so weird - it's a sure-fire way to make .co.uk poor value for any company, and the number one result is to open Nominet to legal challenge.

  19. Turbojerry
    Devil

    I'm going to become a Special

    Then I can take down google.co.uk that will be the warm up to taking gov.uk offline, remember gov.uk have engaged in copyright infringement such as with the Iraq dossier they copied off the net without permission or attribution so the law will be on my side, and if anyone in the government wants to interfere with me going about my duties as a police officer I'll be glad to arrest them all from the PM on down.

  20. dontstopnow
    Paris Hilton

    Should this come into force..

    ..cue mass updating of .co.uk TTL values to > 7 days

    Paris because <insert smutty innuendo here>

  21. jon 72
    FAIL

    Nice in theory - Unworkable in practice

    Hello.. is that Nominet? PC99 here, I've found a domain that is both providing links to and is storing pirated material along with a wagonload of illegal smut... the name... it's Google.com.

    [for the non webmasters out there Google is not just a search engine it also provides file hosting]

  22. Graham Newton
    WTF?

    Is this Digital Spy?

    Apart from a few notable exceptions I am astounded at the comments on here. I expect this type of hysterical ranting on Digital Spy which is why I don't go there.

    So Nominet changing its rules to allow Websites that are engaged in serious criminal activities to be shut down rather than having to find a loophole to do the same thing is bad?

    Nominet obviously think there is a need to be able to do this so they are looking for solutions. Which don't appear to be found here!

  23. ZiggyZiggy
    WTF?

    Uh oh

    The Police just don't have the knowledge and experience to make decisions like this. Decisions should be made by a court which can ensure proper consultation - it need not be a lengthy process - there are many other decisions which require court approval and procedures are in place to run them through quickly, even out of hours - why can't this be done here?

    Anything like this must be transparent and accountable - something that's seen by the authorities as unimportant nowadays.

  24. Arion

    blah

    What would you guys think if (a) they couldn't shut down a site, but only suspend it for 2 hours ( and that to retain the suspension, they'd need an injunction ), and (b), nominet operated a certified contact register, which busineesses could register themselves on to prevent such takedowns ( ie they couldn't take down domains whose certified contact details they had on file , withut a court order).

    1. IsJustabloke
      Stop

      I refuse to enoble a simple forum post!

      I think this...

      Don't *help* with ideas about how they *might* get some people to go along with them.

      The correct response is.. if you want to shut down that domain go and have a word with Judge and convince him you need to.

  25. Paul 5
    Stop

    slippery slope?

    The slippery slope argument is a bad one in principle - but it can highlight legitimate concerns.

    The usual government response, sadly, is "we won't use the powers in that way", or even "we will include guidelines [with no legal force] to ask people please please not to use the powers in that way".

    What OUGHT TO happen is that the primary legislation should include both strict limits on how the powers can be used, and credible deterrent penalties for breaching those limits. And a mechanism for detecting, reporting on, and prosecuting breaches of those limits.

    The penalties should include fines to the organisation, in proportion to the harm done, and penalties for the INDIVIDUALS abusing the process. BOTH components to the penalty are essential.

    Unfortunately, that never seems to happen.

    It's almost like they didn't want to prevent misuse of the new powers...

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