UN defends human right to WikiLeaked info The United Nations has responded to the ongoing WikiLeaks kerfuffle, urging member states to – ahem – remember the basic human right to access information held by governments and other public authorities. In issuing a joint statement on Wikileaks with the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, the United Nations (UN) …
Here's the first quote from the UN...
"The right to access information held by public authorities is a fundamental human right subject to a strict regime of exceptions,"
This is a key point that many of the Wikileaks followers don't quite understand its ramifications.
What the speaker is talking about is that there should be a FOIA in place. I don't believe that the UN is defending wikileaks or even approving of an arbitrary 3rd party disseminates information at their own pleasure.
What the UN doesn't want is for countries to clamp down and restrict their information in light of Wikileaks.
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Citizens to have a right to know what's being negotiated on their behalf : the whole ACTA fiasco is a classic example of what is essentially a violation of our human rights. At the same time – though it will get me eleventeen squillion downvotes from the zealots – there is legitimately some information whose release will endanger people. (Military and covert operations being only the beginning.)
Are our governments classifying /way/ more information than they should be? Without question. I think we as the individuals who make up our various nations should be on our various parliaments’ lawns demanding change in this manner. Open government with as much transparency as is reasonably possible. Starting with campaign contributions, corruption, backroom dealing and who is owned by whom.
There need to be legal protections for whistleblowers. Indeed, countries that have ratified the Universal Declaration of Human Rights should be required to provide political amnesty and safe harbour – exempt from extradition laws – for whistleblowers. Under two conditions:
1) Countries should have special recourse for the extradition and imprisonment of individuals who leak information that results in the deaths of others. As mentioned above: the rights to citizen’s access to information are not absolute; there are very narrowly defined specific circumstances in which “national security” actually means something.
2) Individuals should not be allowed to use such whistleblowing safe harbour as a means of escaping other legitimate crimes.
The wikileaks bit is a mess. A complicated bit of faffery that has been blown out of proportion and hyped by so many different people with so many different agendas that the truth is lost. The signal has overcome the noise. Whistleblowers are critical to the proper functioning of a society – I hold Cryptome up as an example of excellence in this field – but there are limits. Where those limits do – and should – lie is hugely up for debate.
Whilst I disagree with a lot of what has happened as part of this little fiasco, the one thing I am glad of is that we – the various nations of the western world – are finally sitting down are starting to define these limits. Where is the line between “a citizen’s right to know what his government is up to” and “disclosure of this information will endanger lives?”
We can only hope that the current culture of perpetual, constant and all-encompassing secrecy will be curtailed and driven back. If only it doesn’t get lost in the shining glow of one individual's grab for the limelight and the resulting blacklash of entrenched interests.
Do governments need to be more open about the information they gather,create, and disseminate?
It depends.
It depends on which government, what sort of information, and what risk does that information pose to its national security?
There are some things that at the time are not good for the common person to read. Especially when its taken out of context.
That is why there are things like the FOIA and an existing declassification process that allow classified information to become declassified.
To dump information that is regarded as classified and confidential with total disregard for the context or censoring of the information is in fact a dangerous act and can have unintended consequences.
Assange clearly doesn't care who he hurts as long as he can get his way. Assange was convicted of hacking US systems in the past and this prior bad act (yes there is a legal ramification and legal meaning to that phrase), this prior bad act indicates a pattern and an agenda on the part of Assange.
Those who praise Wikileaks seem to have selective filtering and fail to grasp the entire picture.
The UN's message is that it would be wrong to rewrite the declassification process, create new laws to limit free speech in light of Wikileak's actions.
Is Assange a follower of Nietzsche's principals and believes that he is an uber man? That the laws that govern us do not apply to him? If you read some of the links provided by other posters to articles and interviews of Assange, you will start to find flaws and cracks that would indicate he's delusional.
Should there be whistle blowers? Sure. You bet. We have a Whistle Blower law that allows the Whistle blower to be rewarded when they blow the whistle on a company's bad acts. But that's not Assange. Nor is he or Wikileaks a part of the press.
I think you are falling into the same trap as the hive minders. They viciously attack anyone who does not appear to be lauding Assange as a hero. You appear to attack anyone who does not attack him.
Let me make myself and my positions crystal clear to all:
I believe that Assange has handled this entire situation unbelievably poorly. Whilst I have never met the man face-to-face, his actions, sound bites and the few interviews he has participated in leave me to believe his strongly egotistical and possibly incapable of empathy with another. I could go on in detail - and back it up with references - but in all likelihood it would get moderated by Sarah. El Reg rightly doesn't want a sueball lobbed their way because some commenter badmouthed the Almost Man Of The Year.
On the other hand, I believe that the art and practice of whiltleblowing to be critical to the proper functioning of a modern social democracy. I believe that the United States is rushing headlong into true fascism – a very small “elite” of individuals continuously shifting places within the elected hierarchy backed by and enormously favouring corporate interests. Strict corporate libertarianism - to the point that corporations are very nearly more rightly considered “citizens” than individual human beings are. Similarly, it is pursuing a gradual but steady erosion of civil liberties and the concept of “guilty unless innocent.” As the United States is the standard-bearer for western society, this descent into madness is dragging other countries along with it.
Without whilstleblowers, the populace will never know what is going on. We will be the proverbial frogs in a pot of boiling water: by the time we choose to act, it will be too late. It is thusly that I hold up Cryptome as the epitome of who is “should” be done. They have been doing this for a lot longer than wikileaks, and without the Drama Llama excrement being lobbed at any rotating air circulation devices.
Some might argue that the wikileaks drama has brought this whole issue to the front-of-mind for many citizens, but I would argue differently. What it has done is made governments aware of how dangerous whilstleblowers are. At the same time, nothing shocking enough was ever revealed. That means that the entire thing is already rapidly fading from the public consciousness. People care about it in the same way they “care” about a tsunami hitting the coast of India: vaguely interesting, but it doesn’t affect them directly and there’s Christmas shopping to be done. Maybe they’ll donate something to the cause if it is made as easy for them as texting “to lazy to care” to *667 on their cell phones.
The timing was bad. The public relations was handled poorly. Worst of all, the entire thing degenerated to be about Assange instead of the concept of whistleblowing in the first place. We are now right back where we started: a few nerds and anoraks truly care about the cause, but Joe Blow American has gone back to watching “Oprah” and really couldn’t care.
So don’t confuse my belief that whilsteblowing is a critical element of a modern social democracy with a belief that Assange is right, good, pure or has handled this situation with anything like a sense of professionalism or “needs of the many” ethical toolkit.
Whether rightly or wrongly, I view Assange almost identically to how I view Zuckerberg. One runs a social networking site, the other a whilstleblowing site…but for all intents and purposes I view the personalities of the two individuals as cognate. I also don’t particularly like what I have observed in either of them.
I don't know why the post showed up as an AC, I clearly don't post as an AC unless I have to protect my identity. (My nickname is unique enough that people know who I am.)
I think our positions are closer than you think. Unfortunately Assange isn't a whistle blower on anything that prevents companies or governments from doing harm. His release(s) some innocuous while others can be shown to harm not just US interests but real lives of real people. As I posted earlier, there's a couple of posters who've provided links to articles that show Assange for whom he really is.
Information taken out of context can be a really bad and dangerous thing.
There are a lot of differences between Zuckerberg and Assange. Zuckerberg doesn't believe he's beyond the law. Zuckerber doesn't follow Nietzsche... Zuckerberg also has ties to a real community. (He gave money back to the Newark NJ school district.) (Assange and Wikileaks raised money for Manning's defense. Yet this money hasn't reached Manning.)
Assange is the harm. A digital terrorist.
The UN announcement on the Wikileaks bruhaha was quite an unexpected and welcome surprise. Until this announcement, the voice of reason has been drowned out by the primitive scare mongering of 'digital McCarthyism' that has flooded the news media. The path to a mature, intelligent and compassionate humanity depends on open and honest access to information which allows the common person to make informed decisions. Governments of course, find the concept of an aware populous to be anathema.
"Governments of course, find the concept of an aware populous to be anathema."
I've goggled that phrase and it appears to be entirely synonymous with
"Governments are scared shitless of an aware populous."
I've only posted this in the interests of efficiency as it just takes up less letters :)
My long distant history lessons are vague but isn't the UN like the League of Nations set up at the beginning of the 20th Century? The one all the countries signed up to to avoid war, then promptly ignored the second some royal mate, of a mate, of a mate was shot by a nutter in the Balkans. Next thing you know 20 million were dead in trenches all over France!
Your history lessens are vague to the point of mangling the timeframe. The League of Nations was set up *after* World War I (the trenches-in-France war) to prevent it from reoccuring.
It failed because it was basically a "Revenge agains Germany" thing and Adolf and his cronies came to power and started doing their own thing. Next thing we knew, millions of Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and handicapped people were being gassed and tens of millions of other people died around the world.
So yes, the UN is somewhat similar in that it was also set up by the winners of a World War, but they did at least attempt to learn from the mistakes made before.
Since you're not an American, you don't seem to understand how things in America work.
Yeah we got our bunch of Nutters on the right and to the left. But guess what. The US Government allows them to exist, to a point. That point is when those nutters start to do harm to others.
Its ok for the Religious right to meet in their Church and believe what they want. They can camp outside a Medical Clinic which may provide abortion services and protest the act. But when they harass and kill doctors, bomb clinics? That crosses the line.
Same thing for the left too. (Other groups too.)
We defend the right to your free speech, to a point. Not all speech is protected speech. (And this is a point that many seem to forget.)
There is no 'war' against WL. WL crossed the line and it will be dealt with in accordance to the law. Assange will be shown exactly who and what he is.
I would hope that those who defend WL without understanding the consequences to its actions will learn the dangers that WL represents. Assange is an anarchist. And an anarchist in a free society can be a very dangerous thing.
But M Frank LaRue, the Special Rapporteur on the promotion and protection of the right to freedom of opinion and expression of the former organisation would be advised to polish his resumé - as many of its officials, even the highest, have learned to their cost, retribution on the part of the US government is swift and severe if one, no matter how previously compliant, has dared to perform an action which can be interpreted as «disloyal» to the interests of the Empire, which demands fealty of citizens and non-citizens alike. That is why Joseph Isadore Lieberman (whose greatest loyalty seems to be to another entity than the United States) could demand to know why the US government had procrastinated in charging Mr Assange....
Henri
PS : «Aron», you haven't been keeping up with your homework - had you done so, you would realise that the UNO Special Rapporteur has indeed been taking the Chinese government to task (http://www2.ohchr.org/english/issues/opinion/index.htm) - but then again, that fact wouldn't have influenced your opinion on this matter, now would it ?...
with all the wikileaks stuff is the consequences.
Now that South Korea knows that China does'nt really care who runs North Korea so long as the government is friendly to China, the South Koreans can be a lot belligerent towards North Korea
And with North Korea's leaders reacting to it, that could spell war
So, if as a result 250 000 people die in the resulting conflict, thanks Mr Asss.
Ps Yeah I know my spelling sucks
Here's the first two paragraphs from an Article in The Chicago Tribune...
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-na-obama-insular-presidency-20101225,0,5881054.story
Reporting from Washington —
In the West Wing it had become a pretty common sight: two national security aides with close ties to the president, Thomas Donilon and Denis McDonough, hurrying into the Oval Office to show him the latest piece of hot intelligence.
Some administration officials who watched the scene unfold worried that James L. Jones, the national security advisor at the time, was being left out of the loop and that Obama was being given raw reports before their meaning and import were clear.
-=-
And this kind of prove the point that one should be concerned when information is provided without providing the proper context.
An information dump without the proper context will allow for people to draw a wrong conclusion and their actions will do more harm than good.
Information without understanding is dangerous.
In a court of law, the courts do not recognize any source of information that occurs outside of the courts. This could be considered intentional ignorance. The benefit is that the courts judge the case based on its merits. That is, information presented in the courts and allows the courts to make an 'informed' decision based on the facts presented and only the facts presented. Thus one can argue that a structured 'ignorance' can allow for an objective view and an impartial judge. (This is why the penalties for intentionally withholding evidence are so high.)
"An information dump without the proper context will allow for people to draw a wrong conclusion and their actions will do more harm than good."
The USA is free to provide any context, explanation or evidence it wishes. This situation is a great opportunity to have an adult dialogue with their citizens.
... they should be more careful about going to war ...
The UK pretends to be open with its FOI Act, but that is just designed to let us know about things like the number of potholes in an area or how many beds a hospital has not the real reason government has decided to go to war or whether they know a war was illegal or not.
...
The UN may like to see US secrets and dodgy dealings uncovered but they have been less enthusiastic about such revelations from their own organisations. Maria Veiga, an auditor for the UN's WMO uncovered serious corruption in the organisation, as part of her job - she was rewarded by the UN by being harassed and eventually, dismissed from her job. The UN were forced to pay her almost half a million dollars in a subsequent court case.
Then there have been prostitution scandals in Bosnia and arms-for-gold deals in Africa.
Maybe the UN should clean up their own act before pontificating about others.
Leaving aside the wikileaks crap for a moment....should this really be a human RIGHT?
It seems to me that it's impossible to be a basic human right because a country without a government would make this "right" inapplicable. Even so a level of secrecy is necessary in a great number of operations.
Can anyone shed light on this?
"Leaving aside the wikileaks crap for a moment....should this really be a human RIGHT?"
I studied philosophy and politics some years back. One prominent topic was that of human rights. The lecturer discussed various viewpoints, including one in which putative 'human rights' became more extensive - ' inclusive', if you will - at the expense of the majority, in favour of those in a trouble making minority who, increasingly, learn to use the language of human rights in order not merely to reinforce their human rights, but also to cow, intimidate (look at recent Labour PC legislation) and control anyone likely to disagree with the over inclusive minority group have any rights at all.
The debate between the positivists and the natural law folk came to the point where the question, 'is there such a thing as a natural right' was actually answered by the positivists. The answer of course was the right to life. The rest - right to broad band connections, right to assembly, right to strike, right to receive welfare, right to insult a host culture [..] - is mere flummery of people whose thinking is over inclusive (in the sense meant by cognitive psychologists and philosophers), people who over extrapolate a large tranche of non sequiturs from a small number of principle, discrete concepts.
Be sure that a lot of people will apply the argument from shouting loudest/longest (as I am away from my library at home I don't have the technical term to hand), and shout down anyone disagreeing with them. That is why the Martin Niemöller cold war era homily has never to be forgotten by those wishing to see truth and not distortion of it prevail:
They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up.
Assange is self elected and has his own view of what the truth ought to be, how it ought to be handled and distributed. He has made it clear - as evidence by an earlier quote from me - that some of his 'leaks' will result in harm. Assange has clearly indicated that this is a trade that he, an unrepresentative, unelected and self appointed individual, feels is the true good for all.
Does anyone posting here really believe that Assange is an expert on the true source and nature of truth (epistemology), and that he knows better than the original Platonic view that it may be immoral (possibly illegal) to return to a 'man' his spear, knowing that he may use it to kill another? There are many similar moral dilemmas, and it is I think clear from comments made earlier by someone else that Assange is not qualified to make the sorts of decisions that he does - and actually these are made by people in their fields, not by politicians - indeed, if you look at his academic record you will I believe find that he failed his degree, because he was paying more attention to playing with bits and bytes (not a problem of itself, but not a qualification in axiology) than he was to philosophy, neuroscience and such like.
Julian Assange appears to be a typical, self absorbed geek, unaware of the consequences of his deeds (or he would not have broken so many laws, never mind hacking police computers in his own country, to monitor an investigation into him), and not very well schooled by his limited education in understanding the consequences of his behavioural acts in a variety of domains. He is the last person with whom I would entrust a national secret, simply because I cannot see him understanding the import of such a thing, never mind what he might do with it. We see now the consequences of such an individual (who poses as a journalist of all things) possessing such information, and there is more to come.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/dec/21/julian-assange-memoirs
Plus also the apparently planned 'pay per view' leak portal, and his now very fat salary. This man is just another money grubbing ideologue and, I suspect, something of a demagogue. A fat cat for sure.
VP Canidate Sarah Palin: "Declare Wikileaks a Terror organization"
"In a November 29 Facebook posting, Palin.... And she also wrote, "Assange is not a 'journalist,' any more than the 'editor' of al Qaeda's new English-language magazine Inspire is a 'journalist.' He is an anti-American operative with blood on his hands. His past posting of classified documents revealed the identity of more than 100 Afghan sources to the Taliban. Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al Qaeda and Taliban leaders?""
The Member Of The U.S. Senate Lieberman wants to indict Assange for "Espionage". Assange is NOT a U.S. Citizen and does not live there:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thecutline/20101207/ts_yblog_thecutline/sen-lieberman-suggests-ny-times-violated-espionage-act"
Canadian PM adviser calling for plain Assassination: "Thomas Eugene Flanagan is a political science professor at the University of Calgary, author, and conservative political activist. He also served as an advisor to Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper until 2004. Flanagan's scholarship has focused on Native and Metis rights in Western Canada, particularly on Louis Riel, leader of the 1885 North-West Rebellion. Recently, Flanagan made controversial comments that advocated the assassination of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange on live CBC television on November 30, 2010.[1]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Flanagan_%28political_scientist%29
The USofA should better be reminded that killing people without "due process" is a Method Of The K.G.B.
You post links to a radical right thinking Canadian and somehow attribute those remarks to the US and US Government.
As to your and other insistence that Assange can't be prosecuted for espionage, here's the definition:
Espionage or spying involves an individual obtaining information that is considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage
But wait... here's another 'legal definition'
"Espionage Law & Legal Definition
Espionage is the crime of spying on the federal government and/or transferring state secrets on behalf of a foreign country. If the other country is an enemy, espionage may be treason, which involves aiding an enemy. The term applies particularly to the act of collecting military, industrial, and political data about one nation for the benefit of another. "
http://definitions.uslegal.com/e/espionage/
"Espionage Act Law & Legal Definition
The Espionage Act is a federal legislature enacted in 1917. The Act criminalizes and punishes espionage, spying and related crimes. The Act prohibits not only spying but also various other activities, including certain kinds of expression. The Act pursuant to 18 USCS § 793, provides that a person will be punished with fine or imprisoned not more than ten years if s/he copies, takes, makes, or obtains, or attempts to copy, take, make, or obtain any sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, document, writing, or note of anything connected with the national defense. The Act deems any person a criminal if s/he is found obtaining information with respect to the national defense with a reason to believe that the information to be obtained is to be used to the injury of the U.S "
And here's another post.
http://thegazette.com/2010/12/12/assange-should-face-treason-charges/
(See Pat Smith's comment)
But back to the point...
from: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40653249/ns/us_news-wikileaks_in_security/
"In this written roundtable discussion, a diverse group of three panelists:
• Predict that Assange will be indicted and that the indictment will survive a legal challenge.
• Disagree on the question of whether Assange is a journalist. But they agree that even if he is deemed a journalist, that may not save him.
• Describe the prosecution's greatest weaknesses, starting with getting Assange onto U.S. soil for a trial.
• Discuss what may be an overwhelming handicap for the defense if there is a trial: Assange's personality. His statements that he intends to harm the United States won't help him with the judge. And a jury probably won't like him, the panelists predict. "
-=-
I appreciate the fact that Canada is formally a somehow independent nation. Formally, the head of state is the Queen of England, though. Also, Canada is part of NATO, the UKUSA intelligence collective and part of the NORAD system. Many (most ?) Canadian weapons systems like the F-18 are bought or designed from/by the U.S.
Especially UKUSA and NORAD are an indication of the strongest government cooperation one can think of. UKUSA is a central element of the Anglosaxon government system. The American government *will* ultimately *care* what UKUSA partners (Britain, NZ, Australia and Canada) say in international diplomacy.
Many nations around the globe have a fist in their pocket whenever they talk to America, but they are willing to have a more positive attitude when they talk to a politician from Canada. Because Canada is generally seen as less belligerent than the U.S. So a suggestion for assassination (so to speak) by a person who had the ear of the Candian Prime Minister will definitely be received by Washington and Langley as a sort of "Green Light" from Canada for outright Tshekist Methods being applied.
George Bush, Dick Cheney and Colin Powell could be indicted in Den Haag or Nuremberg for
A) Illegal War Against Iraq
B) War Crimes related to A)
C) Criminal Neglect Of Security In Iraq leading to 100000 Civilians Killed.
Killing 100000 people, what kind of penalty does that carry ?
So we better don't be too picky with the law and the Anglosaxons should be really smart what they do with Assange. Don't pull too many dirty tricks against Assange or you will lose
A) your own freedom
B) the support of quite a few friendly and civilized countries around the globe.
Mr Assange looks very much like me and if you just "send a hit team" I myself could be the next to be "sent a hit team". And that makes me lobbying for Stronger Defense Of My Country Against the Langley Threat.
If you want to be like the K.G.B. just kill him. I will then lobby for Germany to quit NATO, as I don't want to conspire with Tshekists. I will certainly not be successful on the short run, but the Steady Drop Creates A Cavity, as we say.
Stop that shit, ok ?
The cables in general should be released, provided they're redacted such to remove the names of companies, geographic location of valuable things, and names of individuals. Further, the cables should be scrubbed and classified properly for relation to ongoing international issues for matters of national or international security and active efforts in the field necessary to keep secret.
The classified terms on any documents restricted to certain eyes should always expire based on a variable time frame, not a fixed amount. For example, if something was classified because it involved an action in planning or that had not yet happened, it should only be classified until such a time as the action became public.
That said, certain communication over cable is no different than in a room with a person. If its an official communication, it should equally be documented either way, and unless it requires classification for tripping a clearly documented rule, the conversation should be released. However, if it is unofficial communication; the tossing around of ideas not really viable to be implemented, maybe it should not be. People put bad ideas on the table during open discussion, and that has no bearing on the public impact of that discussion. Also, politicians HAVE to be free to discuss even unpopular ideas, and have those conversations maintained as private. So long as what the Government is DOING and PLANNING is out in the public eye, we really should not concern ourselves with what they're brainstorming on they have no intent of actually turning into an action, unless it's related to an ongoing action or public concern. This is magnified when comments can be easily taken out of context and presented in colored lighting by propagandists and lobbyists.
It is quite true that Palin stopped short of suggesting an Extralegal Killing of Assange. But you don't need to be a codebreaker to understand that she meant this. Her reasoning was: Assange == Enemy Propagandist. Enemy can be killed in war.
So: Green Light for killing of Assange by Palin. The Canadian PM Adviser was just a bit more blunt.
Regarding the Espionage charges, if they don't carry the death sentence it has a least the smell of legality and civilization, despite being ridiculous when it concerns someone on different soil for the "time of the crime". And of different nationality...
Maybe Germany can make use this to lock up a Time Magazine journalist who asked too many questions ? I can see the shitstorm if we did this in very realistic colors.
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