Pressure group aghast at Hillingdon ID card scheme

As someone with one of these cards...

...I think I'm in a better position to comment on their pros and cons than most of the contributors here.

@ Lionel Baden: "why must the address be printed on the card ????"

It isn't, re-read the article and pay particular attention to the bit which says "We will only store and print your name and card number. No address or financial information will be stored or printed on the card". The only address printed on my card is that of Uxbridge civic centre...

@Anonymous Coward 13:35: "If the council has data on what you purchase and when, how much easier does it make to prove garbage-related 'offences'?"

Except they don't have that data. In order to obtain discounts at local businesses (at least the ones we've used it at so far), all you have to do is *show* the card. It doesn't get scanned, the business doesn't record the name/number on the back of the card, there's something approaching the sum total of zero chance of the council being able to link a purchase to a card. Right now, the only bits of info the council can get from the cards are knowing how often a given card is used to access the local tips or gain discounted parking, and without a way of proving who was using the card at the time even this information is a bit ropey.

@ numerous people suggesting it's the thin edge of the ID card wedge:

Umm, okaaaaay. Prior to being sent my Hillingdon card, my wallet was already full of other bits of plastic and paper carrying more personal info than the HC does. The only thing the HC identifies is that you, or someone you know, or someone you don't know but who's decided to lend/give you their card anyway, or someone who walked down the path at some point ahead of you and dropped their card, or someone who's pocket you picked, etc. etc., lives in the area. I could swap cards with my wife, or with my next door neighbours, and it wouldn't affect in the slightest my ability to access the council facilities or preferential business prices made available to a cardholder. Card *holder* being the operative word here - it's whoever has the card in their hands who can take advantage of it.

And so it *could* be used to check up on how often I visit the library, and to pull up a list of which books I check out. If the council (or some other body) were so inclined, they could do that already just by accessing my library card details.

It *could* be used to check up on which stores I use. OK, so if the day comes when the stores start scanning/recording the card details instead of simply acknowledging that I have a card in my hand, then I simply don't use the card in any stores which I'd prefer not to be associated with, and I accept that in return for not showing the card I have to pay the normal RRP for whatever product/service is being provided. Oh, but not only do I have to remember not to use my HC to get the discount, I also have to remember to pay in cash, avoid looking in the direction of any instore CCTV, avoid wearing any readily identifiable items of clothing etc. etc.

It *could* be used to do [insert scaremongering option here]. Most likely there are already ways and means to do that, and as someone above commented, just because the whole card setup *could* at some point in the future be modified to allow it, doesn't mean it will.

It *can* be used to deny access to waste disposal sites. Actually, no it can't. What it does is deny *free* access to those sites - anyone without a card/unwilling to use theirs is able to access the sites on payment of an access fee. And if a local resident has such a strong objection both to using their card *and* to paying for the priviledge of carting their own rubbish to the tip, then they're still free to leave it outside on whatever day their refuse collection takes place.

There's a lot of paranoid tabloid-esque frothy-mouthed pseudo-outrage being spouted here, most/all of which seems to be coming from people with no first-hand experience of how the card works. Whilst I'm no fan of the idea of a national ID card, I'm no more troubled by the presence of the HC in my wallet than I am by the store loyalty cards, the photo driving licence, the oyster card, the credit/debit cards...

If that makes me a sheeple, a moron, dumb etc in some peoples eyes then so be it. How many of them can honestly say that they don't give away any sort of personal information, which could be used to build up a profile of their activities if someone so wished to do so, when they go shopping, to the library, use car parks, waste sites etc. etc. I suspect the answer to that is a rather small figure, quite possibly one which bears more than a passing resemblence to a zero.

Electronic card?

From one of the comments, it's got some sort of RFID built-in? Does that make it a good candidate to test RFID-zappers? How long before someone clones a card.

I try to avoid government-provided services as much as possible so I'd be a refusenik, I didn't even bother to go and sign on when I had six weeks off work earlier this year, although I did go check out the DWP website and discovered that you have to use Windows and IE to sign on on-line. For various reasons I'm currently very anti-government, and if my local council tried this, I think I'd make the effort to try and use a service and then sue them in court over it just out of principle.

@ ChrisC

"There's a lot of paranoid tabloid-esque frothy mouthed pseudo outrage being spouted here."

The thing about this is that we all know the arguments spouted by those in charge. "Well you didn't object when we did this...well you didn't object when we did the next bit.." It's called the salami technique - all you take is a little slice each time, so that people can't object, and before you know it they've taken so many slices you don't have any salami left.

That's not paranoid, frothy mouthed pseudo-outrage, it's bitter experience. Look at the way we used to be able to travel to America without notice. Then you had to check in several hours before your flight. Then you had to let them know where you were staying. Now you can't go without 48 hours notice. Bit by bit by bit...

As for your implication that any resident who doesn't want a card should expect to have pay twice - once in his council tax and then once again at the gate - to use a particular service that he's supposed to get access to anyway is just nonsense. Why should someone who has already paid have to pay again just because they don't have a piece of plastic on them? Is that really fair? And if anyone is coming across the council borders to use Hillingdon's dump, then they're paying for a service in their own council that they're not using, and are thus only robbing themselves. To say that "yes but the extra expense involved in disposing of their rubbish will have to be met by our council tax payers" may seem true, but the extra expense involved in providing the discounts for card holders will ALSO be met by Hillingdon council tax payers, so you're robbing yourself there, too. Ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

And you don't seriously think that the stuff they would take down the dump will be picked up by the local bin men, do you? Really? As they say where I come from, "Aye right you are, son."

Finally, the difference with all of the other cards you already have in your wallet is that they all go to separate places that are protected by law from being accessed by anyone other than the specific service provider. So if you're a member of a gym, fine. But the council has no right whatsoever to access that info, even if they own it. This card gives them the potential ability to start tying up all those previously loose ends.

I have absolutely no doubt that someone, somewhere, will want those loose ends tied up, sooner or later. Bit by bit by bit by bit...

It ain't paranoia, it's experience.

no2id

now I'm against id cards, but the bores at no2id really get up my nose - you might remember their pledge for funds to protect people prosecuted under the id card laws, which they called upon ages ago when they decided they neededto pay themselves from the pledge rather than use it for its stated purpose.

As far as I can see no2id is simply a money-making scheme by the organizers who pop up moaning and whinging all over the place but you can be sure they won't be the ones going to prison when the push comes to the shove and when you need the defense fund you'll find it has all gone on expenses

Sigh - is everyone a Daily Mail reader now...

Most of the comments on here sound like they come from Daily Mail readers!

So, it replaces a library card - no big deal. You have to give up pretty much exactly the same information to get a library card from *any* library in the UK by showing proof of residence (with name, address etc.).

You can use it at local businesses (who only get to see you have the card, I imagine they don't access the information on it). No worry there - they will get more information if you pay be credit card anyway. I also suspect that most people aren't going to be bothered about getting discounts from local business on it - so what if some small corner shop offers a 1p discount? By far the majority of spending in any area goes to the big name stores who will ignore it.

Finally you get discounted parking - fine. People coming into the borough aren't going to worry about an extra 10p on their ticket cost, and residents feel that they are getting something. No big deal - it's not going to stop people visiting in any significant numbers, if at all!

I've objected to a national ID card previously - but it's completely different. The police could stop you and ask for it, you would need to show it as ID at various points. The police have no power to see your Hillingdon discount card, just as much as to see your supermarket loyalty card!

Soviet Union

Its a great idea, and a step towards something we have needed in this country for a long time, a system of internal passports, so that before anyone could live anyplace or access any services there, including housing, he or she would have to get approval from the local council. Its great to see that these guys have seen the need in Hillingdon as the pilot project.

I am sure this will go down very well, and that Hillingdon will have great success in keeping out undesirables and attracting the right kind of people, and that when other cities and local authorities see how well its done, they will follow suit.

Good on you Hillingdon, you are the future of England. What Hillingdon drinks today, England drinks tomorrow!

prime ministers

> Labour is in power so whoever is it's leader is the Prime Minister.

No so. Her Majesty is entitled to ask anyone she wants to form a government, it is

merely custom that she asks the leader of the majority party. She could pick anyone

off the street, in theory at least. There have been prime ministers who were of

the nobility and not even permitted in the House of Commons.

> You don't elect them, never have done.

True. It's only very recently that ballot papers even had party affiliations on them, they

used to just have the names of the candidates. Much better, IMHO, it at least made

people think (and more fool those who voted for the Literal Democrat, made me laugh,

that did :) )

Question

Is it legal for shops in an area to only give discounts to people in that area or does this count as some form of discrimination/illegal pricing policy?

@Dennis O'Neill

"As for your implication that any resident who doesn't want a card should expect to have pay twice - once in his council tax and then once again at the gate - to use a particular service that he's supposed to get access to anyway is just nonsense."

I wasn't suggesting it's right that council tax payers *should* have to pay twice, I was simply responding to the inaccurate suggestion that some services would not be available *at all* if you didn't use the card.

"And if anyone is coming across the council borders to use Hillingdon's dump, then they're paying for a service in their own council that they're not using, and are thus only robbing themselves."

You assume the person coming over the border *is* paying council tax in their area, of course...

"And you don't seriously think that the stuff they would take down the dump will be picked up by the local bin men, do you? Really?"

Most of the stuff, yes. Because, as someone who was actually at the tip within the past few days, I have personally seen the sort of stuff that people throw out there. The few larger bits and pieces that I know the normal collection wouldn't touch could alternatively have been picked up by the special "give us a call and we'll send someone round" collection service.

The tips are handy for people, like us, who have generated a large amount ot rubbish in a short space of time and don't want to leave it lying around for the best part of a week before it gets picked up on the regular collection day. But they're not the only way to dispose of rubbish in this part of the world, we actually do have a pretty good set of collection schemes here.

"So if you're a member of a gym, fine. But the council has no right whatsoever to access that info, even if they own it. This card gives them the potential ability to start tying up all those previously loose ends."

Indeed, it gives them the *potential*, if they actually bothered to record card details at any but a handful of the places where the card can presently be used. But it doesn't mean they *will* do it. You suggest experience says it will happen sooner or later. I believe it might, I'm just not paranoid enough to accept that it must.

@Mark 65

"Is it legal for shops in an area to only give discounts to people in that area or does this count as some form of discrimination/illegal pricing policy?"

Shops already give discounts to people who are students, OAPs, work in certain sectors (e.g. NHS, armed forces), able to visit the store at certain times of the day etc. etc., so what's the difference?