back to article UK IT should 'fire men first', says Kate Craig-Wood

Famed skydiving hosting-biz queenpin Kate Craig-Wood has called for IT companies hit by the recession to fire male employees before female ones, as men are - she says - paid more to do the same jobs. “In the IT industry women earn a massive 23 per cent less than male counterparts, despite being equally capable,” says Craig- …

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Paris Hilton

What's good enough for her

is good enough for me. I attach a photo of my new desired look

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Paris Hilton

But wait

Is she talking redundancy or firing people???

If she is talking redundancy you can only make a role redundant so theoretically you can't select 'people' regardless of any criteria including wages, gender, skills - i.e. you can't keep the lowest paid, best skilled, etc and get rid of the lowest skilled and highest paid - that's breaking the law missy.

And firing, last time I checked you can't fire someone unless they gone done something wrong (or in the UK and been employed for less than 2 years), and to the best of my knowledge, despite what some of the sisterhood would have us believe, being born a man isn't 'wrong'.

Paris, because she is smarter by comparison

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Mmmm, not quite

An understandable sentiment, but wrong. And not for the reasons you might think.

After some nutty politician said a few years ago that "no small business with any sense would employ women of a child-bearing age" there was a thoughtful article in the FT or the Economist (I forget which).

It pointed out that, while on a day-to-day basis women might work just as hard, they are equally more likely to desire a work / life balance and therefore not break themselves at work for their career. They will seek compromise over confrontation and will therefore go chasing neither excessive results not salaries. They are also (dare I say it) likely to put their children and family first, whereas men might not.

This was not and is not a criticism of women. In fact, the article said, this is a positive and beneficial fact - and should be seen as such. But don't, it pointed out, think that women are equally productive. They may work just as hard if not harder in the short-term but over the long-term, and from an employer's perspective, they are paid less because they produce less. Harsh, especially for the women for whom this does not apply, but (and this is perhaps a bad time to point this out) market rates exist for a reason.

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Anonymous Coward

Is this her?

Is this the Kate Craig-Wood the article refers to?:

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/business/s/2041210_sex_change_kate_has_never_looked_back

To be hopes they don't go on the birth certificate, as presumably they haven't changed the law to say that the gender of a person can't be changed on their birth certificate if they have a sex change?

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Good advert

I'm amused by the fact that the advert showing at the top of the comments page is for "Hiscox"

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she couldn't make a comment like that

unless she has meet all of them......

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Flame

Constructive Dissmissal here we come!!!

If I worked for an organisation that stated I would be laid off first, mainly due to my gender, I would quit and claim constructive dismissal. Don't even need to be laid off first!!

Highest paid workers tend to be the most productive and knowledgeable in the workplace.

Great business model to get rid of your good workers first and keep the ass kissers!!

Sounds like the civil service to me!

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This post has been deleted by its author

Joke

Ah, bless her pretty little head

Now back to the housekeeping, luv.

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Edd
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Stupid.

Speaking as a male in IT, i've lost a number of contracts because the bosses prefered a pair of tits to actual on the job experience, i've missed out on promotions because i couldnt "blow" my way to the top, and ive been forced out by female bosses who decided they wanted their boyfriends needed my job more than i did.

Im sorry Katy or clive or whatever, ( kate.craig-wood.com ) but you kiss my swinging friends... those ones you chose to have removed yourself.

By all means campaign for equal pay, Im all for it, i might even get a raise myself, in the female dominated department i work in where i spend every day explaining the kind of computing basics my 7 year old has already grasped.

The kind of discrimination you believe in is no different to the kind of discrimination ACTUAL women suffered for decades before you decided to take hormone pills.

Or in summary, bitch, shut the fuck up.

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Paris Hilton

Ceci n'est pas une title

So, are you suggesting that Craig-Wood used to be called Craig Wood?

Paris, 'cos she's all woman.

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Flame

Who's going to make the tea???

My full support.

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Clueless bint

Check out the big brain on Kate, everyone.

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TS

@AC - Yes, she's a transsexual; see http://kate.craig-wood.com/bio.php for details.

We've probably all noticed that there's no-one more violently anti-smoking than an ex-smoker; perhaps this is a gender-related version of the same thing?

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Stop

Couple of women I know in IT are very good,

but thats cos they're smart, not cos they have 'ginas (and to be honest, they are bit huckery in the look department).

After 20 years, I have had a gutsful of women in IT, and of PC and cowardly bosses who won't pull them into line when they get all "but you're picking on me cos I;m a woman!"

In my own experience,...

- Woman spends 2 weeks a year doing hubbies taxes on company time

- Woman refuses to lift floor tiles in the data centre

- Woman insists on own fan heater under desk rather than wear trousers

- Woman turns on-call phone off Saturday nights, on again Sunday morning

- Woman takes 90 mins lunch to attend gym

- Woman picks up kids from school even though hubby works for himself in the local area

- Woman agrees to customers unrealistic demands without even arguing

IT definitely needs more women, in the form of HelpDesk Personnel, Tea Ladies and Prostitutes.

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Linux

The 'kate' dilemma

So....if a man in IT felt under threat in his job, perhaps as a result of her comments, and announced to his colleagues that 'he' intended to become a 'she' .......

-- would she support 'his' dismissal or 'her' right to fair non-discriminatory treatment.

I suspect her rants are like the rabid anti-smoking people who used to be smokers themselves.

Penguin, because it's the male penguin which looks after the egg, and thus deserves the maternity pay....bitter irony eh?

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I'd hit it.

http://www.memset.com/images/kcw_headshot550.jpg

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Coat

This has all the hallmarks

of an off-the-cuff comment being taken too seriously. Craig-Wood is a great role model for younger transgendered people, and - although inflammatory - her comment certainly makes a point. Regardless of the level of representation in the IT community, employees should be paid solely on their merit, not on their race, gender or creed. Those of you making reference to pregnancy/menstruation/cooking really ought to examine just what image that portrays.

Mine's the one with the survival knife and the moisturiser.

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Paris Hilton

interesting

I work for an academic institute and there are loads of female scientists here. We also have several women in our IT department. Having said that the last two companies I worked for had no women at all in IT except in management (they were fucking useless because they knew nothing about IT and only got the jobs because they were pals with a female director in the organisation).

Anyway, this whole fire men first thing is a load of sexist bollocks.

Paris, just because.

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(Written by Reg staff)

right

Guys? It's an idiotic thing for her to say, no question. But you don't have to declare open season on all of womankind. You really don't. Nor is it cool to start in on transsexuals.

Also, Edd, you might want to examine your post for traces of hypocrisy. It's nice that you're sympathetic to the fact that women have experienced discrimination (and it's true - not to say that we now need a reversal of that, in case you assume I would ever embrace such an appalling notion), but um... well.

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g e

Whaddya mean 'You People'?

Reminds me of that scene from Tropic Thunder.. swap ethnicity for gender.

Anyone in favour of swapping gents & ladies loo sign symbols for 'XY' and 'XX' ?

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Pirate

Incitement to offend = Criminal....

As far as I know, the incitement to commit an offence is a chargeable criminal offence.

Our politicians are usually so keen on keeping the political correctness:

I want to see this women get charged on multiple counts of incitement to commit a criminal offence and gender discrimination!

I am all for equality, but there are biological facts, that make women a bigger risk than men.....

Every insurance company works along the lines of risk-assessment.

So b1$%* keep your gob shut and let someone do the job who thinks before they talk and doesn´t fulfill the clishé of a typical female.

best regards

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Law
Paris Hilton

Good luck with that here

Through no fault of the company, our office an a 100% sausage fest.... I've not conversed with a female during work hours for over 2.5 years except for when the wife rings me... it's depressing...

Paris - because if she worked in IT, she'd be hired in a second!!

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Joke

Follow the example

So ... To follow 'her' example, if men want to keep their jobs, they need to lose their johnson??

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Paris Hilton

This is what you get.

When you let women think they are real people.

Paris because she needs to get back to the kitchen too.

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Anonymous Coward

Cor! More Shite Management Thinking

Sex discrimination is sex discrimination whether it's males disadvantaging females or females disadvantaging males. Regardless of whether or not they are transgendered. And, as such, is illegal. I couldn't fire you purely for being female just as you couldn't fire me purely for being male. As a leader you should know this. If you don't then you are being a retard. If you do then what's your agenda here?

Does the IT sector now have its own version of Julie Bindel?

Had I suggested something similar but reversed - women being sacked because they are women - you can bet there would be one hell of a backlash.

Whatever credibility you might have claimed has now been lost. Irretrievably. Whatever causes you are associated with are now tarnished with your sexism. Your name is now on the list of the sexist brigade. You are now in the company of Jim Davidson, Roy Chubby Brown, Bernard Manning and many others.

I hope you're proud.

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Coat

Used to be a bloke

http://www.memset.com/images/kcw_headshot550.jpg

Wow. With arms that hairy, she has to have been born Kevin instead of Kate. Also those aren't Bulgarian Airbags, they're Bulgarian Bubblewrap.

Seriously - I wish I could be more mature than just poke fun at her but hey - she started it. Wonder if she knows she'll never be able to fire a man again without ending up in court?

Anon because the above comments could jeopardise a current business deal with Memset. Come to think of it, I might show this article to my (mainly male) management - that should derail it proper like.

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Anonymous Coward

LOL

Women in IT?!

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Bronze badge

Double Bluff

No doubt he/she will claim to be 'trans-gender' and therefore safe whichever group gets fired first...

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Anonymous Coward

sweeping generalisations

are made by the lazy, the stupid and the attention-seeking.

I wonder which she/he is?

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Anonymous Coward

just my experience

but i can see things working the otehr way too.

in the team i work in, we desperately needed a senior to run a project, so advertised the job. Both i and one of my co-workers applied. she got the job, got a nice, 30% pay rise above what we were on, and then said oh, by the way i'm pregnant and will be taking a years maternity leave in 3 months. Knowing that the job was specifically advertised because someone was needed to cover a long term project, before applying.

guess who ended up running the project anyway but not being paid any extra for it.

I'm all for equality, but it must be a true equality, not just affirmative action. That means the best person should get the job. The person contributing least should be let go first, this means that large amounts of leave should impact your career whatever the reason.

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Flame

Rubbish.....

Where are they getting the stats from! in my company the "ladies" are favoured over the men and earn more thanks to calls for Politcal Correctness "equal" treatment!!!!

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Another case of...

Discrimination isn't seen as discrimination by some, unless they are on the shit end of the stick.

I remember a conversation with a woman, who had complained that a man was being paid more than her for her job, about Sheila's wheels. She thought the discrimination by gender was a good thing when said advert came on but near enough exploded at me when I pointed out it was doing more or less what she was complaining about at work.

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Head Count

http://kate.craig-wood.com/images/memset_guildford_team_1024.jpg

Shows 7 people, only two of whom are women. Now as this is the only picture of any "Team" on the site it would suggest that these are the senior people. 2 Women, 5 men... not very equal is it.

Frankly it sounds like she decided to get a bit of free publicity for her company.

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Anonymous Coward

All the laws in the world

don't and won't alter the fact that KCW is still genetically a man.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out...

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Does she just mean smaller companies?

In my experience working for large corporations, knowing what a colleague (whether they be male or female) earns is a big no no - disciplinary offence in almost all cases.

As long as I am earning what I believe I'm worth then I'll happily work to the best of my abilities and put in some extra effort. If not then it's up to me to change my situation.

Any hint of me being made redundant just cos I can stand up to pee would certainly be grounds to bring the lawyers in!

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Flame

Sack all female models first

Because as we know, female models are paid more on average than male models, and there are more of them.

So when the advertising budgets are cut, you should cull the women-folk first and leave the lower paid men to show off those bikini's :D

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Oh dear, a little bit hatstand

I expect Kate will be along herself to comment in a bit, but really can't see how's she's got a leg to stand on unless it's actually just a talking point/PR (which it undoubtedly is..)

Yes, there is a pay disparity at times, there's still sexism and not enough women in IT, but this is not the way to solve it.

In short : assistance to compete on a level playing field=good. Positive discrimination=bad.

Dare I say that this type of blinkered thinking is likely to make things harder for women, rather than easier?

Personally I'd be happier if the image of the IT industry is lifted from the nerdy stereotype that exists. It hasn't been true for years, but change is glacial. It might also help if there were easily identifiable ways to attract everyone (but especially women) into IT. Yes, there are now many websites and free tools to interest children/teenagers in IT, but it might help to have a centralised source (i.e. a set of 'quick wins', as many other IT activities require extensive background experience)

As to the poster asking about a birth certificate : typically after sexual reassignment surgery all documentation gets changed : birth certificate, passport, national insurance, issuing of gender recognition certificate (which, note, is not required for proof of change of name and sex to most institutions) etc.

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Anonymous Coward

Chip on shoulder

Perhaps like ex-smokers who turn vehemently anti-smoking, Kate, who used to be a man is now vehemently anti-men. May I suggest her transgender change hasn't worked fully and while Kate now looks like a woman, she is clearly still in need of psychiatric treatment.

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Coat

Gonna be a lot of companies going down....

...due to the fact that roughly 15%* of the IT work force seem to be women, there will be a massive IT staff shortage. Even given ladies' inherent ability to multi-task, I'm still fairly confident that running an IT dept with 85% of the staff gone will still be a bit of a challenge.

So the ladies will be off too, to which they form a handful companies with all female IT staff, then the Gender Wars will begin as male versus female for domination of the IT landscape!

* rough figure based on my very quick office straw poll!

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This post has been deleted by its author

Unhappy

Unbelievable!

No, Not Kate. You Lot.

I've never met a bunch of more sexist idiots in my life. I notice that a lot of you posted as AC... too afraid to stand by your offensive remarks are we ?

Kate makes a valid point, IF employers wont pay pay their women equal monies, THEN they can save on costs (remember we ARE in a recession) by firing the men, as they ARE paid more. As a point it stands. It may not be right... but there is a more deep rooted issue - and that's the lack of equality in the workplace (not just in IT).

And as far as Kates personal history goes - WTF has that got to do with the article ? Gay/Straight/Male/Female who cares as long as they are good at their job ?

I am saddened by all the responses here. It truely re-enforces why I love my Job, but hate the Industry.

-Jar

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Stop

Is that legal?

While restoring the gender balance to IT is all well and good as a goal, <em>in practice</em> doesn't the Sex Discrimination Act (1975 and as amended) have something to say on the topic of firing people because of their sex?

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Dead Vulture

Smacks of self-publicity

NFT

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MnM
Go

@Sarah

But have you seen these people park? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2Q_s2NcuuM

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Stop

Project Managers

Need I really say more?

OK, fellow IT folks - How many of you work for female project managers? How many of you work in Call-centres where the middle management is entirely female?

Bottom line: Technical skills at the bottom are mostly provided by male employees, management at the top are mostly (old-guard) male (old school-tie) types. Middle management? predominantly female. Why is that?

Simply put, its because we're reclusive geeks (as a rule) at the bottom and faceless management at the top. The women fill that essential middle role because, as a rule of thumb, they are perceived as being better communicators and better face-to-face that your average techie....

...and they get paid more for it.

So, are we suprised when it comes to redundancy we are seeing cuts mainly in middle-management? And are we suprised thats its women feeling this situation the hardest? Nope.

Unfair as it may be, its the way things are. Personally, I think everyone doing the same job should be paid the same amount with bonuses for productivity and length of service, regardless of race, gender, disability etc. etc.

Oh, and to Sarah Bee - very brave to step out into the open on this one! Bravo!

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Unhappy

Hee hee hee

I love that I've arrived just after the occasionally lovely (but sometimes fierce) Sarah Bee has told off the forum for being exactly as discriminatory.

I believe that we should make illegal every minority representation groupt. No more minister for women, no more Black Police Officers Association, nor Gay (including lesbianism), no special representation for individual foreign groups, no more Women Only anything, no more Men Only anything.

When the hell is the general population going to wake up and realise that there's NO DIFFERENCE between them and the next person? Pretty much the only group in the UK without a dedicated lobby are White Anglo Saxon Protestants - or about 35% of the population. We are now a minority, the most discriminated against in the country.

Positive discrimination (like Military Intelligence, or Living Dead, a self contained contradiction) t is waved around as if putting positive in front of any despicable act makes it ok. Anyone for "Positive Assault"? How about "Positive Rape"? Or "Positive Murder" ? Why is "Discrimination" illegal and "Positive Discrimination" ok? Pull the other one, ITS GOT BELLS ON.

Coat, Hat, Door.

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Tom
Alert

So...

Are your textual implications correct, she used to be a man, and is now saying that men should be sacked ahead of women? Do i detect the tell tale funk of a very intricate and dangerous personality complex per chance?

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And you wonder why...?

Irrespective of whether Ms. Craig-Wood is correct or not, if the sexist drivel on display in many of these comments is typical of the average male IT worker it’s not hard to see why more women aren’t clamouring to enter the industry.

And responding to an argument you regard as sexist with a sexist counter-argument doesn’t make you look particularly clever btw.

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Anonymous Coward

@Captain Jamie

Well said - exactly my thoughts but better said.

Glad I don't deal with memset any more. Doubt I ever will again now!

Wonder if the old adage no publicity is bad publicity works here? Perhaps its just free advertising for memset. Make you wonder what memset stands for now. Anyone got any good anagrams? Heres is mine to start!

men

earn

more

sack

every

techie

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