The last time Pendle was used as a legal first it didn't end well for some of it's constituents
The government is to expand its controversial voter ID trials in next year’s local elections. sledgehammer reduces cement block to powder 'A sledgehammer to crack a nut': Charities slam UK voter ID trials READ MORE The trials require people to bring personal identification before they are allowed to vote, and were rolled out …
We don't have ID cards.
Not everyone has passports or driving licences.
Hence, day-to-day life doesn't require it.
You do have to be on the electoral register, though, which isn't easy without actually being the person in question.
The problem is voter "impersonation" (i.e. pretending to be someone else and using their vote) not vote "fabrication" (i.e. someone pretending to be someone who doesn't exist and getting a vote). The latter is just ripe for abuse, but the former is just a really, really, really dumb things to do that ends in jail-time.
"We don't have ID cards.
Not everyone has passports or driving licences.
Hence, day-to-day life doesn't require it."
While this may be true today, criminal activity is increasing leading to the need to prove one's identity, and if we don't end up with ID cards we will have de facto ID cards in Passports or Driving licences, with everyone requiring ownership of one or the other just to prove their identity even if they don't drive or go overseas.
Not saying its right, just pointing out the world is changing, and voting is just another aspect that will change, like it or not,
"We don't have ID cards."
What are you on about?
You are required to show ID to attend an educational institute, get a job, receive benefits, rent a property, check into a hotel, drive a car, buy alcohol/knives/solvents, open a bank account, ect.
ID is effectively mandatory in this country.
You don't have to show ID to buy alcohol, knives or solvents unless you look underage. Also, I've never been asked to show any sort of id to book into a hotel in the UK.
Last time I claimed JSA (a few years ago now), I don' recall having to produce id either (but I could be misrembering this).
Also, there's big difference I'd suggest in having to own a passport or driving licence (i.e. photo id) and just having proof of residence (e.g. utility bills.)
"You don't have to show ID to buy alcohol, knives or solvents unless you look underage. Also, I've never been asked to show any sort of id to book into a hotel in the UK."
I get asked for ID every time I visit Scotland and stay in a hotel (or hostel), even at the ones which seem to be being very "British" rather than enthusiastically "Scottish".
"Last time I claimed JSA (a few years ago now), I don' recall having to produce id either (but I could be misrembering this)."
As I understand it, you can't claim JSA or any other benefit without your NI number, which is a form of ID. I certainly needed mine for the brief period I claimed JSA, but that was 20 years ago.
Not a lot.
It's not even that secret. It's not like a social-security number in the US which can be used to do things.
It's literally just a reference number to see if you've a) paid the appropriate compulsory "national insurance" (a.k.a. "stamp") as part of your paid wages, b) link it to your NHS number a bit (but your NHS number is very different).
Pretty much you can't do much with it, but it's a nice "joiner" between datasets, but it's only real purpose is to give it to your employer so they can pay stamp (which is just a tax, really) for you.
Without an NI number, you tend to end up on "emergency" tax codes, until they can establish what your number is. Which every employer, etc. can do with a simple request (often the tax office will tell THEM that they have the wrong NI number).
Unlike America, it's not that important, not information to keep deathly quiet and nor can you - like a friend of mine in America - just make one up and jot it down on your employment forms and have it go entirely unchallenged for decades...
You can't even pay your tax with your National Insurance number, even though it is a requirement to be paid and appears on your pay slip and P60 (yearly salary statement). To pay your taxes you need your Unique Taxpayer Reference Number. But you still need to put your National Insurance number on your tax forms.
"I stayed in an hotel in Scotland earlier this year and also last year with no such demand."
Same here. I've stayed in half a dozen or so in Scotland in the last year. Some were unmanned receptions (self-service computer check-in), some were chains like Premier Inn, manned and a couple of country side pub/hotels, none asked for ID.
"I have a perfectly valid paper driving license
that is currently valid for at least another 10 years"
Me too! An on using it both as ID and on one occasion getting a courtesy car from a main dealer during a service, I've had to disabuse people of the notion that it's no longer valid. A main car dealer really should have no excuse for not knowing (she had to go get a manager to check).
I've also used my company ID badge as proof of identity, and that's a pretty poor badge. Anyone could produce better at home :-)
I've even had difficulty getting into some schools (very rarely), where I'm there by appointment, they called us to come repair the computer, I have the call details including make/model/serial number and the name of the person who logged the call.
What generally happens is people are given examples of what are acceptable types of ID and that rapidly becomes, inside their own heads, the ONLY acceptable type of ID.
"Not everyone has passports or driving licences.
Hence, day-to-day life doesn't require it."
That is probably true in more or less the whole world.
The fact that most European countries have the possibility to get an ID card doesn't mean you have to carry it with you all the time.
A safe way to insult some of the Brits is to suggest they could learn something from some foreign country and it gets even worse should a foreigner suggest it.
Look at how quickly that topic regarding the NHS is dropped here.
BBC Politics Live 5/11/2018
Besides that, we receive that poll card automatically by mail about six weeks prior to the election. Without a poll card, you just don't vote. And that system with poll cards has been in place since way before I was born in 1965, one of the advantages of a functioning (legal) inhabitants registration system.
"Besides that, we receive that poll card automatically by mail about six weeks prior to the election. Without a poll card, you just don't vote. And that system with poll cards has been in place since way before I was born in 1965, one of the advantages of a functioning (legal) inhabitants registration system."
Same here in the UK, except you don't actually need to take your poll card with you. It's easier if you do, of course. I can;t see any reason why the poll card can't just be the voter ID anyway. Voter fraud is pretty low and in general the only people able to take anthers poll card and vote on their behalf are people who live in the same house. I can't see why more expensive poll cards with unique barcodes and a tablet with an app at the polling station are needed. The poll cards already have unique IDs on them anyway, ie registration number and the voters name and address.
"If we're going to have mandatory ID, we should also have a proper, written constitution"
We do. It's not just written in a single place. It starts with Magna Carta (which, admittedly, successive govts, especially recent ones, try to ignore) and including "and a Bill of Rights."
You want a Bill of Rights? OK, here you are:
Really? I do not see anything particularly lucky about it, but I have to deal with both systems on a regular basis so I am naturally UNbiased.
There is a PRICE to pay for not having a working national identity database.
It may be small. Like the multi-billion cost of multiple failing attempts to have a working unified social security system as well as the cost of constant drip of funds between the cracks in the existing systems.
It may be bigger - like deporting back to Jamaica hundreds of people who have lived here for 40 odd years and are cittizens because there is f*ck all record for them and the disparate databases held by different departments cannot agree who they are.
It may be even bigger. For example, I just asked my UK bank what it would take to open accounts for the kids. They returned with a list of 4 documents AND an ID. As a comparison - the only thing I did to do the same thing on the continent was supply a national identity number. Having that combined with the identity theft aspect is a cost to government, businesses and individuals. Day, to day to day.
All of that is for a gimmick which does not really make you more free. 'cause the law is very clear on that - while you are not supposed to be carrying an ID, the police is entitled to request that you attend within a week (if memory serves me right) your local police station and identify yourself. Not doing so is a criminal offence. So much for not having "Papieren, bitte". Itn reality, it is just "Papers by end of the week prole".
@Volands's right hand - "Papers by end of the week prole"
I recall being told that too... but I've never worked out, if you don't turn up and identify yourself, how do the police know who they want to arrest? It probably only works in villages where everyone knows each other, where it isn't needed.
"I've never worked out, if you don't turn up and identify yourself, how do the police know who they want to arrest?"
And even if you do, what does it mean? Who am I? Who are you? The answers to those questions are relative.
I can turn up with a copy of my birth certificate. I can equally turn up with a copy of someone else's birth certificate providing it gives a DoB roughly the same as mine.
I can turn up with a piece of photo ID. What does it mean? Just that I persuaded someone to attach a name to a photo of me or someone who looks reasonably like me.
Utility bill (what's that in the days of online billing?)? I got what I claim to be my address printed on a letter heading that looks as if it might have come from a utility company. Utility company billing base stock is scarcely a secure base stock; the base stock for the birth certificate is - and it clearly states it's not a form of identification.
while you are not supposed to be carrying an ID, the police is entitled to request that you attend within a week (if memory serves me right) your local police station and identify yourself. Not doing so is a criminal offence. So much for not having "Papieren, bitte". Itn reality, it is just "Papers by end of the week prole".
While true, the above is not complete. The Police need a reasonable level of suspicion to demand such. They can't just stop you and ask for ID for wearing a loud shirt, or having a beard.
"You just have to hope that they will accept things like your birth certificate etc. and - as the article says - two forms of non-photo ID instead."
If the Windrush "Scandal" has proven anything, it's that this assumption simply does not hold.
This is a solution looking for a problem. Voter error, whether fraudulent or otherwise, is effective nonexistent in the UK. You should treat any and all measures that restrict access to voting in the name of reducing fraud with the highest levels of suspicion.
There is a huge scandal with postal voting, overwhelmingly amongst the most diverse of our beautiful rainbow coloured nation of diversity.
I blame colonialism and structural oppression.
>> it says two forms of non-photo ID are acceptable
From my reading of the press release, there are 4 models being tested. One of the models appears to only accept photo IDs:
>> Voters in Pendle, East Staffordshire and Woking will be asked to show photo ID before they are given their ballot papers.
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