back to article Microsoft Windows 10 October update giving HP users BSOD

Microsoft on Tuesday posted KB4464330 (Windows 10 1809 Build 17763.55) in an effort to halt the damage done by last week's Windows 10 version 1809 update, but it hasn't quite worked. Reports of update inflicted file deletion and loss of internet connectivity for Microsoft Edge and Microsoft Store apps have died down. But users …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Again

    Quick! Rush out a new fix without testing it!

    ...and repeat, ad infinitum...

    1. stephanh Silver badge

      Re: Again

      Indeed. Given the egg already over the face, why not take a few weeks now to iron out the bugs? But no, let's rush another update.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Again

      They've been doing that pretty much since Worries for Windows. Even though it became very much obvious during Windows Vista, they achieved enough lock in to survive that.

      I'm very unimpressed with their software, but you must admit that their machinations to keep their claws into a market the quality of their software doesn't deserve for some 3 decades is impressive. If they spent 20% of that investment and effort on the actual products they would not have to troll forums..

    3. David Shaw

      Re: Again

      This week’s Win10 update ‘only’ deleted my Audio drivers on a modern HP lappy, matter of minutes to d/l 300mb & install successfully from hp.com, as all the built in ‘repair’ tools in the “Service called Windows Ten”, formerly an OS, refused to acknowledge there was any problem with audio.

      1. Moeluk

        Re: Again

        Likewise....everyone loves waking up to their laptop, starting a teams meeting and then realising there are no audio drivers because Microsoft have decided it should be deleted.

        Yet literally everyone accepts this level of shoddiness "well it is kind of free", so is MacOS and not once have i updated my 8 year old Macbook and had it forget how to play sound!

        1. Bob Camp

          Re: Again

          If you're having team meetings, you should be running the Enterprise version of Windows which allows your IT department to schedule updates.

          1. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

            Re: Again

            If you're having team meetings, you should be running the Enterprise version of Windows which allows your IT department to plan their overtime. FTFY

          2. bombastic bob Silver badge
            Linux

            Re: Again

            "If you're having team meetings, you should be running the Enterprise version of something OTHER THAN Windows"

            REALLY fixed that for ya!

        2. Phil W

          Re: Again

          "so is MacOS and not once have i updated my 8 year old Macbook and had it forget how to play sound!"

          Funny you should mention that but certain models of iMac had exactly that problem after updating to a particular MacOS, I forget whether it was Sierra or the one before that but essentially all the iMacs we had of a particular model stopped being able to output sound via the internal speakers following the update.

          To be fair it was a trivial fix, plugging something into the headphone jack and unplugging it fixed it, but the principal is the same, it should never have happened.

          In some ways you could blame Microsoft less for this, they can't realistically test Windows updates on every conceivable bit of hardware that it may be running on. Apple on the other hand have a much smaller set of hardware to test, and they make all of it!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Again

        Did the same thing to my ASUS. Exact same scenario. Wife was looking for a new laptop so I scanned some recent reviews and found a log of Lenovo users complaining of what looked like the same thing.

        Why is windows trashing, apparently across multiple brands, sound drivers? Have they no QA? (Yes, I know, rhetorical question.)

  2. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

    Pros & Cons of AutoUpdate

    One problem is that if everyone gets the update at the same time then there can be a sudden spike of activity from customers having the same issue. I endeavour to respond to customer problems very quickly, but with a simultaneous roll-out it is impossible.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Holmes

      Re: Pros & Cons of AutoUpdate

      From the article: "The update debate has divided security experts about whether automatic updates are more trouble than they're worth"

      Ya think?

      Obviously more 'cons' than 'pros'. See icon.

      But, will Micro-shaft do what the CUSTOMERS want? (let alone security experts)

      (snarky, hysterical, uncontrollable laughter follows)

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Your fault for buying HP and running Windows.

    Double idiocy.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Your fault for buying HP and running Windows.

      You do realise that's like buying a car and the brakes fail then blaming the owner because another model had issues with the same software. I'm not a fan of either to be honest from personal experience (Windows 10 that is and HP to some extent) but you can't generalise like that.

      Every OS and hardware manufacturer has had problems over the years.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Your fault for buying HP and running Windows.

        You do realise that's like buying a car and the brakes fail then blaming the owner because another model had issues with the same software.

        It's not like that at all.

    2. Waseem Alkurdi

      Re: Your fault for buying HP and running Windows.

      Regarding HP, their support might not be the best (but so is everybody else's with outsourcing et al), nor are their prices cheap, but their hardware is good, probably the best of the breed, especially after the ThinkPad's demise.

      1. AJ MacLeod

        Re: Your fault for buying HP and running Windows. @Waseem

        I'm not sure it was ever best of breed (really ancient Laserjet printers were good I suppose) but if it was, it was a very, very long time ago indeed.

        Every manufacturer has their problems but very few have been so consistently poor in my experience than HP, particularly with laptops. The servers are OK I suppose, if you forget about that time when they said you'd need a support contract in order to get continued firmware updates...

  4. alain williams Silver badge

    Barton Gellman defended auto-updates, arguing they do more good than harm

    you try telling that to someone who's laptop no longer works. So: will it be HP or Microsoft that pays for the repair & a bit to compensate for the inconvenience ? What do you mean 'neither' ?

    1. Big Al 23

      Re: Barton Gellman defended auto-updates, arguing they do more good than harm

      It's outrageous IMNHO that Microsoft can cause untold damage to millions of people and businesses worldwide and escape all accountability for their negligence in not properly validating OS and software updates. These preventable losses in the many millions are a result of pure negligence by Microsoft. Why is it that consumer protection agencies have allowed Microsoft and other companies to wreck havoc on PCs via blatant neglect when these updates can be validated prior to distribution? If there is no accountability for damages then there is little incentive to deliver proper updates.

      1. julian_n

        Re: Barton Gellman defended auto-updates, arguing they do more good than harm

        But wasn't that also the case with the forced upgrade to Windows 10?

      2. Julian 8

        Re: Barton Gellman defended auto-updates, arguing they do more good than harm

        Businesses would be stupid to allow automated patching like this.

        at a minimum TEST -> PILOT -> PROD

        While MS are cuplable for a bad patch, the business is responsible for ensuring it does not cause problems for their staff. Very easy to do if you are using WSUS, BigFix, LANDesk

        If you follow the minmum of a 3 step cycle and expose more machines each time, your TEST and PILOT phases - if correct - should cover most of your client and server configurations (of course, how you get these phases populated is up for discussion)

        1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge

          Re: Barton Gellman defended auto-updates, arguing they do more good than harm

          The above is all well and good if you're running a business

          But if you are Mr Average HP owner running win10 home edition and suddenly your laptop is hosed.... what are you going to do about it?

          Apart from have to pay someone to fix it.

          Maybe thats why m$ dont do as much QC work to their software.. because they get a kickback from every mom and pop computer store for fixing 1000s of pcs when auto update hoses them...

          1. Fatman Silver badge
            FAIL

            Re: The above is all well and good if you're running a business

            Not all businesses have on staff IT people; and are reluctant to spend the money to have updates applied. So it becomes a case of fucked if you do, or pwned if you don't.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              @Fatman - Re: The above is all well and good if you're running a business

              Oh no, siree! This was not a security update, it was a feature upgrade.

            2. Joe Montana

              Re: The above is all well and good if you're running a business

              "Not all businesses have on staff IT people"

              And that is the problem, if you are going to operate a complex machine you need to hire experts who know how to properly maintain it.

              Despite what microsoft claim, windows is simply not suitable for non technical users - keeping it running reliably and securely is extremely difficult and requires highly skilled (ie expensive) people to do so.

              1. Danny 14 Silver badge

                Re: The above is all well and good if you're running a business

                hogwash. Windows 7 ran happily with updates set to automatic. I cannot think of an updatr that caused as much damage as 1809 w10 update.

                A small garage running an MOT PC, an accounts PC, a diagnostic PC and a general office PC would not have extwnsive IT staff. They would buy preset up dells, use a business internet line with managed firewall and away you go.

                w10 is a nightmare. it auto updates major releases and has little rollback capability. The inbuilt w10 backup is shite, you need to use the legacy backup (or veeam). provisioned apps are amongst the most stupid things available, especially baked in shite in lower than enterprise versions.

                W10 is a train wreck and hopefully a few large businesses will take on a linux rollout to wake MS up.

          2. Highinthemountains

            Re: Barton Gellman defended auto-updates, arguing they do more good than harm

            I’m not kicking back squat to micro$oft! But I sure catch a lot of grief from customers when I have to charge them to fix their computer after a Windoze 10 update borks their computer. Having to wipe and reload is NOT an acceptable answer to a bad update.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Big Al 23 - Re: Barton Gellman defended auto-updates, arguing they do more good than harm

        I wonder if Microsoft would be able to do at least that much damage on purpose, let's say against an enemy state.

  5. Dan 55 Silver badge

    Windows 7

    Still looking good...

    1. Someone Else Silver badge
      Alert

      Re: Windows 7

      But not on newer HP machines...see this....

  6. 9Rune5

    HP keyboards are special?

    "HP keyboard driver file HpqKbFiltr.sys"

    They need their own device driver because ...? Their keys are bigger or faster somehow?

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: HP keyboards are special?

      They've got a bunch of keys to launch the browser, printer, calculator, etc...

      Pretty sad state of affairs that they can't even get that right.

      1. Dazed and Confused Silver badge

        Re: HP keyboards are special?

        > They've got a bunch of keys to launch the browser, printer, calculator, etc...

        The last W10 update hosed the key I used, I found it very useful having a key for controlling the screen brightness rather than having to going through all the settings menus. But since it was useful MS decided it would no longer be allowed and stopping it working.

        1. AndrueC Silver badge
          Boffin

          Re: HP keyboards are special?

          The last W10 update hosed the key I used,

          Run the hot key installer.

          As per that link my setup was in 'C:\SWSETUP\APP\Applications\HP\HPHotkeyS_SS9NB2\6.2.40.1\src'. Ran that, rebooted and keys were working again. If can't change brightness even from display settings, manually update the graphics driver.

        2. Roger Ramjet

          Re: HP keyboards are special?

          Is 2 clicks from the notification button really difficult?

      2. Waseem Alkurdi

        Re: HP keyboards are special?

        @Dan 55

        These keys (sometimes called media keys) have keycodes attached to them and the OS itself is supposed to recognize these (such does Android). It's pretty much Windows's fault.

        But writing a whole DEVICE DRIVER for that is, as you said, truly nonsense.

    2. Someone Else Silver badge

      Re: HP keyboards are special?

      Maybe so their keyboards don't need AHCI/XHCI USB ports to run on?

      1. Waseem Alkurdi

        Re: HP keyboards are special?

        @Someone Else

        AHCI/XHCI

        You mean EHCI. AHCI is storage (SATA), not USB.

        1. Julian 8

          Re: HP keyboards are special?

          I think you may have found the bug...... damn acroynms and vowels

    3. Jay Lenovo Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: HP keyboards are special?

      Otherwise you couldn't press the Fn^U keys, which auto-orders HP's proprietary ink cartridges.

    4. MrReal

      Re: HP keyboards are special?

      The HP drivers are special as the standard windows drivers don't log your keystrokes back to HP.

      https://www.tomshardware.com/news/hp-forgets-keylogging-debugging-driver,36098.html

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: HP keyboards are special?

        recording keystrokes? If that's the case, what's different about Microshaft slurping your activity and sending the data back to Redmond? You know, so "the store" can offer you "smart suggestions"...

        From Joe Belfiore's infamous keynote speech at a dev conference shortly before win-10-nic released...

        "As I'm using my PC, on the client we know which apps you're launching, and which apps you're installing, and so we're able to communicate with the store and bring down suggestions that are personalized for ~you~, to help users learn about great new apps that are available for them to try out on their PC"

        In any case, I am starting to think that maybe HP has had WAY too much of Micro-shaft's coolaid...

        [they would do well to ship with Linux as their primary OS, instead]

  7. Jay Lenovo Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Levels of Risk

    "Some must die so others can live"

    -Windows 10 Update

    Don't worry it's not drugs or vehicle safety, just your time and data. The latest code is always better, unless it is not.

    Fighting the front lines of innovation... brave Windows 10 User.

    1. Steve Aubrey
      Thumb Up

      Re: Levels of Risk

      Jay,

      That's long for a 5-7-5 haiku, but the content works so well.

  8. Someone Else Silver badge
    Flame

    So who you gonna believe?

    "This is why auto-installed updates are so dangerous," observed Steve Bellovin, a professor in the computer science department at Columbia University, via Twitter.

    But Washington Post reporter Barton Gellman defended auto-updates, arguing they do more good than harm.

    So lessee here...on the one hand, you have a CompSci professor (who fully understands the Second Law of Computer Science: "You can't change anything without fucking something else up") who thinks cramming updates down one's throat is a bad idea. On the other hand, a newspaper hack (who likely can't tell the difference between Windows Explorer and Internet Explorer) saying its great.

    Hmmm...I wonder who I should believe...

    1. Dave K Silver badge

      Re: So who you gonna believe?

      Barton and Alex miss two major points:

      1) Earlier Windows versions received mainly small security updates and the odd bug-fix. Windows 10 receives huge "feature" updates every few months. There is no security benefit to new features, just the chance of disruption.

      2) Modern Windows 10 updates do not have the same stringent testing and QA that updates for earlier Windows enjoyed. Not saying MS never released buggy updates previously, but you have to admit that problems are more common now.

      Nobody is arguing much about security updates. The issues being faced by the majority of people however are coming about when big "Feature" updates are forced upon them. These don't provide security, but do leave a trail of borkage in their wake.

    2. Norman Nescio Silver badge

      Re: So who you gonna believe?

      Barton Gellman is a little bit more than an average 'newspaper hack'. He led the Washington Post's coverage of the Snowden leaks, interviewing Snowden personally, and quite probably has had to deal with Information Security in an up close and personal way as part of that process - most of which he either can't (or won't) talk about. It's worth reading his Wikipedia profile.

      This is not to say his real-word experience trumps Steve Bellovin's knowledge*, but I would say Gellman's background shows signs of at least having relevant knowledge. Purely in journalism terms, he has fairly good credentials:

      Gellman has contributed to three Pulitzer Prizes for The Washington Post, winning as an individual, team member and team leader.

      I wouldn't characterise him as a hack, and I'd lay good odds on him knowing the difference between Internet Explorer and Windows Explorer.

      The actual issue is an interesting one; I suspect a nuanced answer might be appropriate: the average user is best served by applying updates as soon as practicable after they have been applied and found to be good by experts. This allows experts to use their expertise in recovering from unexpected glitches, and the population of average users benefit from across-the-board improvements in security. I suspect Microsoft, in part, moved to forced updates because so many people did not update, exacerbating security vulnerabilities. We all know of devices without firmware updates, even if they are available, because most people don't regard applying updates as important. Microsoft, in theory, should be ensuring that updates go without a hitch (i.e. they are the 'experts' people wait for): and for the most part they do, but failures are, quite rightly, high profile.

      I think a good argument can be made for automated updates improving the general level of security, but I would also say that experts should be given the tools to opt out of updates where it is, in their opinion, necessary.

      *Steve Bellovin's blog (SMBlog — Steve Bellovin's Blog) is always an interesting read for me. I have learned a great deal from it.

  9. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

    Updating

    In general keeping the OS and applications updated is a 'good idea/. But the devil is in the details as to the precise installation timing. Some have to vet hardware or software to be sure something mission critical will work afterwards. Others need to wait to when they have some free time so the update does not interrupt work. Also, if there is no active exploit updates or serious security risk updates can be delayed to more convenient time. The idea that one must always update toot suit just because they are available is unrealistic and possibility catastrophic for the user. But must advice is not tempered with any clue about the real world but is only applicable to some academic dream world.

    1. Jack of Shadows Silver badge

      Re: Updating

      Minor nit. The first thing that generally happens when updates are released (okay, inflicted) is the rush to reverse the update to find what vulnerabilities are patched for by the malware communities. The tools are readily available, I've got most of them here, it's more a matter of how much effort is required for a particular level of return.

      Therefore, if those vulnerabilities weren't being actively exploited, you can be assured in a few days/hours it will be actively exploited.

  10. JohnFen Silver badge

    Oh, that sting

    "Auto-updates come with a sting"

    They always do.

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