back to article UK.gov finally adds Galileo and Copernicus to the Brexit divorce bill

Nestled among the mass publication of no-deal guidance yesterday was the UK government's vision for the future of the Brit satellite and space programmes if the country falls out of the EU with no pact in March. The guidance is, unsurprisingly, grim. Galileo Billed as the EU's answer to the USA's GPS system, and aimed at …

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TL;DR

We're fucked.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: TL;DR

Only if you work in a tiny specialisted field.

If you are one of the 99% who's job has nothing to do with the space industry, then who cares?

Effect on the UK economy: insignificantly small and unmeasurable.

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Re: TL;DR

The only possible way to get unfucked is to hold a second referendum with the option to stay in the EU. Maybe adding to the 800,000 who've already signed this petition to hold one will help.

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Re: TL;DR

And if the result changed to remain. a lot of people would demand a best of three - demanding more votes until the "correct" result is returned is unreasonable.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: TL;DR

If you are one of the 99% who's job has nothing to do with the space industry, then who cares?

The other people who work in industries who support the space industry, the people who run businesses where space industry employees spend their wages, the government department that takes taxation from the space industry and its employees, people who benefit from that taxation.

But, yeah...apart from them, who cares?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: TL;DR

Just leave Scotland in the EU and put all trade through there. If we don't we could get battered.

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Re: TL;DR

demanding more votes until the "correct" result is returned is unreasonable

By that logic, we might as well not have elections at all and stick with the government we've got for ever more. Mind you, given that both the present government and opposition are essentially so riven by internal divisions as to be completely ineffective, I can see the merit in your proposition.

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Re: TL;DR

The level of ignorance about the effects of leaving the EU at the time of the last referendum - not least among the most extreme Brexiteers in the government - casts a long shadow over the proceedings. Holding a referendum on the terms of the negotiated agreement versus the status quo, now that people are much better informed, would be good for democracy.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: TL;DR

Still insignificantly small.

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Re: TL;DR

@AC (should really have been Troll icon, but I'll bite...)

Effect on the UK economy: insignificantly small and unmeasurable.

Unless you are one of the 158,000+ job losses already announced, and we still haven't left! And then of course there is the drop in government tax income as GDP falls steadily for a decade or more.

Interesting list at:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTIPx0lI6pb-3Tn-3D6uNJNyKcCd-A8uPMxViagyJAR9T87ZmnSdAEPCzp5ljlNYoUNdxJiJqQdBm7b/pubhtml

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Re: TL;DR

@Helen Highwater

You don't understand - the system is to keep voting until we get the correct result, then stop. And of course, 'remain' is the correct result. More votes after that would just be silly.

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Re: TL;DR

Upvoted for the reference to "battered" in a comment involving Scotland...

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Re: TL;DR

@Thought about IT

The level of ignorance about the effects of leaving the EU at the time of the last referendum - not least among the most extreme Brexiteers in the government - casts a long shadow over the proceedings.

The level of ignorance about the effects of leaving the EU at the time of the last referendum even now - not least among the most extreme Brexiteers in the government - casts a long shadow over the proceedings.

FTFY

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Re: TL;DR

@AC (There's a lot of AC comments here, wonder why?)

Just leave Scotland in the EU and put all trade through there

Ideally, Scotland, Wales and a united Ireland. (Latest Welsh polling shows strong Remain support now - the original referendum had a lot of stuff you Cameron behind the vote, and farmers who thought it would cut down on the paperwork! Which it will of course - no more payments, so no paperwork!)

Anyway, that wouldn't solve it. There would then be a hard border between the glorious kingdom of Little England and Wales/Scotland.

Face it, the vast majority of citizens of the disUK are going to get battered, unless they own a hedge-fund in Ireland or a German passport.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: TL;DR

@Pen-y-gors

It was humour in a humourless situation. If you don't laugh...

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Re: TL;DR

"Only if you work in a tiny specialisted field.

If you are one of the 99% who's job has nothing to do with the space industry, then who cares?

Effect on the UK economy: insignificantly small and unmeasurable."

Unmeasurable maybe, insignificant definitely not.

Space science is one of those flagships industries which governments spend a lot of money trying to attract. Not only on do they directly employ people in high margin industries and indirectly through suppliers, but spin off industries and expertise gained are immeasurable important, especially in developed economies.

In fact it is so important the government have already committed £100 mill of UK tax funds, just to see if they can justify spending £4-5 bill to keep the industry going.

On the other hand, maybe the British economy will be based in the future on tax havens, zero hour contracts warehouses, strawberry picking. So maybe on that basis your right, it doesn't matter at all

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Re: TL;DR

I think that's OK though. Given the demographics of the vote, any sufficiently long chain of referendums (referenda?) will probably show an increasing trend towards remain as elderly people die off. (I realise not everyone who voted leave was elderly but, well, look at the demographics of the vote.)

Of course there's always the option that as people become elderly they turn from remain to leave, but I suspect that's not the case as things like explicit jingoism in the education system have become less acceptable since the 1940s & 1950s. I also kind of hope that even elderly people are becoming aware that their health care & hence quality of life since, well, they are elderly and are going to need health care, kind of depends on lots of EU people being willing & able to work here, although apocryphal evidence (my mother (in her 80s, remain) says her leave-voting friends have not changed their minds) says otherwise.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: TL;DR

On the bright side - the hard line marxists like Corbyn and McDonnell are also old - hopefullty they'll be dead soon too

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Re: TL;DR

When you delete a file on a computer, it generally asks 'are you sure?', so that you can have a think about what you're doing and confirm whether you really want to proceed or not.

Same for when you purchase something.

Same goes for pretty much any decision where there is a lot at stake or may have bad consequences.

But for some reason, brexiters deem it inappropriate to exercise this same level of caution when doing something monumental like leaving the EU. Even though 'leaving the EU' still hasn't been defined. We still don't know what exactly that will entail. Or what the consequences will be. Or what we should do to prepare.

What we *do* know is that all the promises were either lies or fantasy.

We also know that the various Leave campaigns not only broke the law, but were backed by Russian money and deliberately used data harvested from social media to target the victims with emotionally manipulative ads and fake activity.

We also know that nobody in any of the Leave campaigns had any actual plan or idea of what would be involved.

We also know that businesses are already suffering from supply, labour and financial problems just in the negotiation period. Nobody knows how bad it'll get when March comes around and we actually leave. Because still nobody knows what Brexit will be.

We also know that workers and visitors from the EU are avoiding coming here because of uncertainty and because they now see us as a backwards, racist and hostile nation.

The list goes on. and on. and on.

But sure, we definitely shouldn't have an 'are you sure you want to proceed?' second vote. Because 'the will of the people' only mattered that one specific time. Right?

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Re: TL;DR

I certainly think it would be a good thing if all the major parties stopped refighting battles from the 1970s and before, and if that takes old people to die off, well, OK.

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SVV
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Re: TL;DR

Quite a good analogy. The brexiteers are the sort who type rm -rf without too much thought to the consequences.

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Re: TL;DR

The so-called "Neverendum"

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Trollface

great idea

Let's include Northern Ireland with Scotland and use EU funds to build a Solway-Tweed shipping canal to allow high speed container routes from Ireland to the mainland and remove the land border!

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Re: Neverendum

Before the referendum, Brexits thought they would lose by a small amount. They set up a petition to repeat the referendum until their was a 60/40 majority in either direction. When the results were announced Bremainers jumped on the petition and took it to 4,150,262 signatures.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: TL;DR

"The level of ignorance about the effects of leaving the EU at the time of the last referendum - not least among the most extreme Brexiteers in the government - casts a long shadow over the proceedings. Holding a referendum on the terms of the negotiated agreement versus the status quo, now that people are much better informed, would be good for democracy."

People aren't better informed now, though are they?

All we hear is scaremongering from the media and silly stories about Boris and Theresa.

They ignore all the positive news. Things like manufacturing and tourism are already booming before Brexit has even happened.

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Re: TL;DR

I thought the idea was to keep voting until we get an intelligent result (in or out) that is practicable and sustainable and doesn't end up crucifying ordinary folk because of the mendacious greed of very wealthy self-serving bastards.

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Re: TL;DR

You can hold all the referendums you want, the EU is extremely pleased that the old agreements hugely benefitting the UK are gone. You won't get back on the same terms no matter how many referendums.

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Re: TL;DR

The only possible way to get unfucked is to hold a second referendum

Not in a supposedly parliamentary democracy it isn't. I was against the referendum on principle and remain so. If parliament decides against deal then it is entitled and actually required to come up with an alternative. The will of the people is catchy but has no basis in law.

Sensible policy would be to press for the transitional arrangement to last as long as necesary so that all the issues can be worked out.

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Pirate

Re: Neverendum

Before the referendum, Brexits thought they would lose by a small amount. They set up a petition to repeat the referendum until their was a 60/40 majority in either direction.

Which seems quite sensible and legitimate to me. It doesn't matter which way the vote goes only that there is a substantial majority in favour one way or the other. Until then it's not settled. And it's never settled for eternity - It's an inalienable right to change one's mind, take into account changes, new information and evidence.

It's how democracy works. We keep voting for governments and representatives, and when we find one which suits the majority they keep getting re-elected. When things change we vote for someone else.

There is nothing wrong with keeping on voting to come to a consensus. It is how it has always been. It's only hypocritical brexiteers having claimed victory who have now decided it's one vote and that's it, that re-voting is somehow undemocratic.

I expect they would also say the right to appeal a court conviction is also wrong; once convicted that's it. Tough shit if convicted on the back of lies and false claims.

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Re: TL;DR

The only possible way to get unfucked is to hold a second referendum

No, just the change the interpretation of the first one .. require, for example, that 40% of the electorate be in favour of leaving before accepting that as the will of the people. It worked for Thatcher in the 70s.

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Len
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Happy

Re: TL;DR

The EU27 being pleased with the UK choosing to leave? This photo comes to mind...

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Re: Neverendum

The difference is that we vote for our representatives to parliament, on the strict basis that they fill that role for a period not exceeding 5 years. When we then have the next general election, we are not 'changing our mind'; once we vote for our MP, that result is fixed and permanent, and is not, and cannot be, over turned, because some people don't like the result / think it may be harmful.

We (the nation) voted in a free and fair referendum, which was not just authorised but instructed to occur by act of parliament. We voted to leave the EU: the exact details of what this meant were indeed unclear (other than it meant leaving the single market, leaving the common external tariff area / customs union, and ending the general jurisdiction of the ECJ, all points that were absolutely clear during the referendum). Parliament voted to enact that result, and duly started the process for leaving the EU. It would be an over-turning of democracy to stop that process: the instruction to leave the EU has been given and so should be carried out.

Once we have left the EU, then anybody is of course entirely free to make the case to then reverse that decision, just as once your duly elected MP takes his seat in parliament, you are entirely free to start campaigning, for or against him/her, for the next election.

Of course, given that the only previous time the people of the UK were consulted on membership of the EEC/EC/EU was 1975, which was a referendum won by the remain campaign, it might be viewed as hypocritical for supporters of remain to insist on another referendum in less than 40 years from 2016.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: TL;DR

Everything that comes through Scotland will be battered and served with chips in a polystyrene container.

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Re: TL;DR

"The other people..."

...not to mention the military who want their high-resolution GPS, and the rest of us whose taxes will pay for implementing our own solution.

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Re: Neverendum

Free, fair, and NOT LEGALLY BINDING referendum.

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Facepalm

Re: TL;DR

Ugh you made click a Facebook link! My own fault for not checking first.

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Len
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Holmes

Re: TL;DR

About percentages at a referendum, the cleanest approach would be that at least 50% of the total electorate would have to have chosen for one of the two options. That way you could actually state that the will of the people is X. It would be quite hard for either option to reach that point, though.

Moreover, any of this tinkering with percentages doesn't solve the problem of binary referenda not giving a clear answer about what people DO want. They often only tell you what they DON'T want. The Brexit referendum is a case in point. 51.9% of the voters in a 72.2% turnout wanted to leave the EU. The problem that we are now facing is that there is no idea about what they want to happen after the UK has left. SM+CU? Hard Brexit? Something in between? If that was crystal clear then the country wouldn't be in the mess it is in now.

I think the most popular way to leave the EU would perhaps get support by 30% of the population, that means that 70% would be unhappy. And that is the most popular one, we're more likely to end up in a scenario that only 15% would support, making the other 85% unhappy. That is why the country is currently ungovernable and another referendum or general election won't make that go away. We'll be discussing Brexit for at least another decade before we get any closure.

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Re: TL;DR

"Only if you work in a tiny specialisted field."

Except that the situation is mirrored across many other fields.

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Re: TL;DR

Can you explain how we get unfucked when we give Scotland unlimited re-runs on their independence which inevitably leads to the break up of the United Kingdom and we end up as a single nation (England) just a poor insignificant slave nation to Germany and France?

No I didn't think you could.

The United Kingdom has been through far, far worse things than a no deal Brexit and it only made us stronger, true then we wen't filled with limp writsed, soy boy wimps like you in those times but I'm confident our feminists can take your place.

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Happy

Re: TL;DR

And if the result changed to remain. a lot of people would demand a best of three - demanding more votes until the "correct" result is returned is unreasonable.

I am trying to understand why having a vote on something of enduring public interest every few years is a bad thing. Why shouldn't people be able vote periodically on, I don't know, what sort of Government should be in power?

But this misses the point about the "Peoples Vote", which is not a simple rerun of the referendum, but is about voting on the terms actually negotiated by the Government versus sticking with the status quo.

The first vote was about a lump of vague and contradictory options - was become like Norway, or was it Canada, or was it a free trade agreement - the easiest in Human history - or was it “no-one is talking about threatening our place in the single market”. In a few weeks we will know which particular one of those it was, or maybe - almost certainly - none of the above.

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WTF?

Re: TL;DR

On the bright side - the hard line marxists like Corbyn and McDonnell are also old - hopefullty they'll be dead soon too

Downvoted. I vociferously oppose Jeremy Corbyn's political ideas but I would not wish a human being dead just because I disagree with him.

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Re: Neverendum

@EvilDrSmith: The referendum was by no means free and fair. The Electoral Commission has now proved that Leave committed "serious breaches of the laws put in place by Parliament to ensure fairness and transparency at elections and referendums." (https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-donations/vote-leave-fined-and-referred-to-the-police-for-breaking-electoral-law)

If you think the result should stand, you support criminals cheating to win votes, not democracy.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Ignorance of the most extreme Brexiteers in the government

Especially one Boris Johnson and Herr Farage.

Sadly, I think we have passed the point of no returm wrt actually leaving the EU. We are out on our earholes and we'll be paying for it for generations.

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Re: TL;DR

Acrtally an Irish passport works very nicely thank you.

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Re: Neverendum

You missed out that the breach of the law committed by the leave campaign was because they took advice from the Electoral Commission, who stated that what they were going to do (in general terms) was legal, when, in fact, it was not. And that the Electoral Commission then attempted to cover up their own part in this to the High Court.

From the High Court ruling:

Conclusion

94. For the reasons given, we conclude that the Electoral Commission has misinterpreted the definition of “referendum expenses” in section 111(2) of PPERA. The source of its error is a mistaken assumption that an individual or body which makes a donation to a permitted participant cannot thereby incur referendum expenses. As a result of this error, the Electoral Commission has interpreted the definition in a way that is inconsistent with both the language and the purpose of the legislation.

So the Electoral Commission have found the leave campaign guilty of serious crimes, but the High Court has found the Electoral Commission (in effect) misled the leave campaign, causing that breach of the law.

There have also been numerous accusations of breaches of the rules by the remain campaign which the Electoral Commission has failed to investigate (not investigated and found to be unsubstantiated, but failed to investigate).

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Anonymous Coward

"The only possible way to get unfucked is to hold a second referendum"

No, please, now stay out and keep people like Johnson and Farage out of continental Europe, we already have enough dangerous idiots to take care of without them.

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Re: TL;DR

Things like manufacturing and tourism are already booming before Brexit has even happened.

Are they booming because of the Brexit vote or in spite of it? What about the strong run of good summer weather helping tourism? Or are you going to claim that the Brexit vote causing the pound to lose value was a really good thing, in which case you should be demanding we really fuck up the economy because it'll be good for tourism and exports. Oh, wait, you are....

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Anonymous Coward

Re: TL;DR

>By that logic, we might as well not have elections at all and stick with the government we've got for ever more.

Add unelected to that and you have the very reason why we have Brexit and Trump. When democracy is too important to leave to the people the wheels will always come off.

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Re: TL;DR

>We're fucked.

I assume you are referring to Joe Public and those intending to remain in the country post-Brexit, as it is clear the subtext to the government position: "the government warns that now would be a good time to consider the impact" is that businesses that benefit from EU contracts and monies should relocate to an EU27 member state PDQ...

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Re: TL;DR

If you want to stay in the EU I have a better idea, how about making arguments based on verifiable real world fact and/or data as opposed to FUD and opinion; to give you a helping hand here is an example of a leave argument; at the time of the referendum the EU accounted for approximately 16-17% or world GDP and declining (in the 70s it was 30% plus), that means that 83-84% resides in the rest of the world; I back trade with the rest of the world unencumbered by EU protectionist crony corporatism; a small percentage of something big is probably going to be worth more than a large percentage of something small and getting smaller in long term.

You may also like to explore the lack of democracy (law originating from the commission), systemic corruption (accounts not signed off for 20+ years).

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