back to article Microsoft gives Windows 10 a name, throws folks a bone

An impending Windows 10 release, Azure playing nicely with Google, and a blast through BASIC in the browser. It's the Microsoft round-up. Windows 10 gets a new build and a new name As the next version of Windows 10 lumbered ever closer to the desktops of everyday users, Microsoft announced that it would be called (drum roll) “ …

Page:

  1. Updraft102 Silver badge

    LibreOffice only does a majority of what home users need?

    I'd say it does a lot more than what nearly all home users need, and that it almost certainly does a majority of what office Office users need. Or are more than half of the features that a given Office user uses in a business setting missing?

    1. Mark 110 Silver badge

      You'll downvote me for this but Libreoffice is missing the key feature of having everything I need in the same menu location that it is in Office. Yeah I know - old, stuck in my ways .. . etc etc

      1. Nolveys Silver badge
        Windows

        You'll downvote me for this but Libreoffice is missing the key feature of having everything I need in the same menu location that it is in Office.

        That went out the window for me once the ribbon came along.

        I miss WordPerfect 5.1.

        1. BobChip
          Happy

          Word Perfect 5.1

          Remember the "Reveal Codes" feature? This allowed you to see exactly which text and formatting codes - features - were in use at any point in a document, and to edit or delete them if you wanted to. Never seen anything half as useful in any "modern" word processor. Dug me out of some horrible formatting holes in tables and forms, that did. I really miss it. WP 5.1 was pretty damn good really, even by today's standards. (I still have a copy, on 5 floppies....)

          1. cb7

            Re: Word Perfect 5.1

            "WP 5.1 was pretty damn good really, even by today's standards. (I still have a copy, on 5 floppies...."

            Better test those floppies, assuming you still have a machine with a floppy drive. They might have developed the odd (fatal) bad sector. Assuming of course your floppy drive still works...

            Funny you should mention 'Reveal Codes'. Had a numpty user save their 2 page form they'd been working on for the last 2 days as a PDF from Word 2010. So far so good, except they then decided to delete the original Word source.

            Still not the end of the world if that was the final version of the form. Except it never is, is it? And their disk is nearly full so previous version to recover. And no recent backup.

            Anyway, to cut a long story short, I offered to convert the PDF back to a Word .docx which Office 2013 and later can do.

            It did a half decent job with only a few random extra carriage returns inserted in the odd table row.

            And one extra large space in one row that I can't for the life of me figure out how to remove. Even after turning on Word's equivalent of 'Reveal Codes'

          2. Geoffrey W Silver badge

            Re: Word Perfect 5.1

            RE: ""Reveal Codes" feature"

            Is that anything like the "View/Formatting Marks" option in LO? Sounds like it, and if LO does it I bet so does Office...

          3. GruntyMcPugh Silver badge

            Re: Word Perfect 5.1

            @BobChip: "Reveal codes"

            I remember it well, as well as the 'print preview' which rendered a preview of what the document might look like,.... although back then we saved the print to a Postscript file, and had to ftp it to our VAX, and print it from there, as we didn't have any printers available directly to the LanManager (remember that? ) network.

            I used to feel quite at home editing the codes, but then other formatting tools were such offerings as LaTeX, so if you'd cut your teeth on that, WP 5.1 doing most of it for you was a boon.

        2. Linker3000
          Meh

          Re: for the cost of a tape to copy them to and delivery.

          Meh!

          Wordstar on CP/M is where it's at...

          https://github.com/linker3000/Z80-Board

          2nd last pic. (me a week ago)

        3. Rich 11 Silver badge

          I miss WordPerfect 5.1.

          I miss WordStar 3.3.

          (OK, maybe I don't miss it that much.)

        4. PNGuinn
          Pint

          "That went out the window for me"

          I see what you did there - have one of these!

        5. Steelted

          I have WordPerfect X9 (pirated) installed on my laptop. You want one?

          1. Bill_Sticker

            I have a legit copy. As a product far superior to all the versions of Word I've ever used. For home use OpenOffice is a reasonable replacement for anything MS ever produced. Exports to PDFs, reads more formats, I've even been able to access documents written on Macs. Who needs Word?

        6. steviebuk Silver badge

          The ribbon annoyed me as well when it first came along. But then I sat and watched a "Promo" video from MS for it. Yeah obviously they were biased but she did present it in a way that made me see why it was good, useful and how it actually worked.

        7. tygrus.au

          How much of MS Office is actually needed?

          My first computer had Borland Sprint 1.0, Printmaster Plus and GWBASIC. School assignments were completed with that plus: a 3 volume encyclopedia, Osbourne science books, School Project packs (poster folded up to half A4 from the newsagent); stencils; dictionary; thesaurus; cardboard and coloured pencils.

          I can use more features than most but overall productivity has decreased over time as they change and bloat the software.

        8. kgbme

          AddinTools

          @Nolveys You *do* know about "Classic Menu for Office" (32-bit and 64-bit), by AddinTools (https://www.addintools.com/office2010/professionalplus/index.html), don't you? o.0

          ... For example and there are also other ways to display the old-and-familiar menus.

      2. Zippy´s Sausage Factory
        Flame

        You'll downvote me for this but Libreoffice is missing the key feature of having everything I need in the same menu location that it is in Office. Yeah I know - old, stuck in my ways .. . etc etc

        I seem to recall it all moved around in Office about 10 years ago. I still haven't got used to that, but LibreOffice menus actually seem more sensibly ordered than that stupid Ribbon thing.

        (Seriously, I'm against capital punishment, but in the case of the inventor of the "ribbon" I'd happily make an exception)

      3. JLV Silver badge

        >the same menu location that it is in Office.

        Menu? Office?

      4. Jedipadawan
        Angel

        Huh?

        >"You'll downvote me for this but Libreoffice is missing the key feature of having everything I need in the same menu location that it is in Office. "

        ????

        Tools>Customise, configure menu and toolbars to suit.

        And Libreoffice now comes with a ribbon as well though I avoid it.

        Though... Office abandoned the Menu system for the ribbon in 2007 and then they patented it. So I assume you are mean the ribbon and then, while I do not know about whether the ribbon in Libreoffice can be customised, there is the problem of the Ribbon patent so I guess Libreoffice CANNOT reproduce the Office ribbon exactly.

        But still, I, personally, would figure the cost benefit of learning a different system which can be user defined would beat paying for a system you can't define at all and forces you to pay again and again - either in forced upgrades or subscription, to carry out the same tasks as before (the ribbon and xml formats were developed to force people off Office 97 which gave the functionality everyone wanted and so Microsoft could not persuade people to upgrade... along with activation meaning forced paid for upgrades!) with the updates changing the ribbon requiring some degree of relearning anyway.

        Libreoffice kinda stays the same... for good or for ill... so work out where the menu items are or use the shortcuts and you're set for life! Done me well for 8 years now and I used to work with ALL Microsoft products in a software house in the old country. Now I pride myself on being all Linux and it's saved a fortune on my micro business in SE Asia!

        Oh, and KDE lets me configure everything the way I want as well.

        I like customisation...

        1. Norman Nescio Silver badge

          Re: Huh?

          Though... Office abandoned the Menu system for the ribbon in 2007 and then they patented it. So I assume you are mean the ribbon and then, while I do not know about whether the ribbon in Libreoffice can be customised, there is the problem of the Ribbon patent so I guess Libreoffice CANNOT reproduce the Office ribbon exactly.

          In sensible jurisdictions, software is not patentable. Copyrightable, yes, patentable, no.

          The USA, since the 2014 Supreme Court decision in Alice Corp. v. CLS Bank International, has effectively made software ineligible for patenting, under section 101 of the U.S. patent laws. This hasn't stopped lots of people still applying for software patents, and getting patents issued, but they will almost certainly be found ineligible on review, as will lots of previously issued patents. In principle software is not patentable in the EU, but that hasn't stopped the European Patent Office from issuing patents for software, even though their own web-pages make it clear that "a computer program claimed 'as such' is not a patentable invention".

          India does not issue software patents. Section 3(k) of the Patent Act, 1970 lists "a mathematical or business method or a computer programme per se or algorithms" as 'Inventions Not Patentable".

          Obviously, a great deal of lobbying goes on to get this changed, as making software patentable could be quite a money generator for some people. Whether LibreOffice falls foul of patent laws in your jurisdiction is only something you can determine.

          1. DropBear Silver badge

            Re: Huh?

            "In sensible jurisdictions, software is not patentable. Copyrightable, yes, patentable, no."

            Please consider that design patents, which the MS Office ribbon seems to be, are actually a thing and differ from what people typically think of when patents get mentioned.

        2. Mark 110 Silver badge

          Re: Huh?

          @ Jedipadawan

          I did say i was being a grumpy old man when I posted it. Your answer - your suggestion that I need to spend a load of time re configuring Libre to match MS just makes me more grumpy. Would you rather I:

          a. Spend some time with my friends family and some beer

          b. Faff about with Office interfaces to save myself £40 a year (or something - can't be arsed to work it out - theres family friends and beer)

          You choose?

      5. Ken 16 Silver badge
        Windows

        WPS Office

        I am more than happy with it, having used Open/Libre/Star/Symphony and Softmaker Offices in the past.

      6. The Vociferous Time Waster

        To be fair each new version of office seems to lack that feature.

    2. Timmy B Silver badge

      It may do the majority but when a feature is needed that the other half needs then the whole thing may as well be useless.

      1. JBowler

        And there lies death

        True and Office (I think I can still call it that, right, not MS Office?) believed (in so far as a group of individuals can believe) that the break point was 90%. If only 10% of users need (maybe 'want' these days) it (split infinitive, bloody hell, I can split anything) then if you try to provide it you will die.

        Office, evidently, is still alive. I think it actually did 99%, but based on the comments on this thread it was apparently 101%.

        Free stuff whacks out at 50%, like you suggested.

        John Bowler

    3. LDS Silver badge

      "LibreOffice only does a majority of what home users need"

      As long as you don't need full Office compatibility without issues, especially when files are created by others.

      BTW, now the Personal edition will allow, starting from October, to install on more than two devices, and be logged in on five simultaneously. With the Personal you can't still share it with other users, but you can work on multiple devices at the same time.

      1. elgarak1

        Re: "LibreOffice only does a majority of what home users need"

        That's the point: I am a one-user business. I would only need Word (as a desktop app) to check for compatibility. I do not need or want any of the file sharing or cloud crap. I want my files to be save, and not data mined by the app.

        MS sells Word as a stand-alone app, albeit hidden within its online store (you'll have to specifically search for it.) It's €135 as a one-time-payment. That's easily the most expensive general usage word processing app I can get for the Mac, and I still do not know if it data mines or not (Microsoft's web store is notoriously short of information there, and directs you to a Personal Office 365 as alternative which officially data mines. And the stand-alone version _still_ needs a MS account, and I cannot see why I would need to do that.)

        Otherwise, I would need an Office 365 Business Plan, which is €106 _per year_. Better yet, an Office 365 Deutschland (yes, that's right. Data kept _in_ Germany, under German law. Removes some components of Office, though. Interesting what Microsoft has to provide...) Last I checked, €135 per year... But they changed the web page, and do not sell or tell prices anymore, as far as I can see. You have to call and talk to a distributor. It still includes crap I really do not want or need.

        In short, Microsoft is the crappiest software supplier for my type of business.

        1. theunregistered

          Re: "LibreOffice only does a majority of what home users need"

          Just buy a business licence on ebay for office 2016 for couple of dollars...

        2. N2 Silver badge

          Re: "LibreOffice only does a majority of what home users need"

          'In short, Microsoft is the crappiest software supplier for my type of business.'

          I would say: In short, Microsoft is the crappiest and most expensive software supplier for my type of business.

      2. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

        Re: "LibreOffice only does a majority of what home users need"

        Slurp's Orifice has compatibility problems between version so complaining about someone else's problems is a bit of a cheap shot.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          LibreOffice has more Import / Export PDF handling options than Office - True or False???

          PDF refuses to die, yet most of us don't have an 'authoring' version. Anyone still using PDF995 to fill in the gap?... Overall LO comes pre-installed with Mint, what's not to like! LO also offers a buggy but usable Android version to open docs on the go etc...

        2. LDS Silver badge

          "Slurp's Orifice has compatibility problems between version"

          Which ones? Actually unless you're using very old versions, there are no compatibility issues - I've worked with various version from 2007 to 2016 without issues.

          While complex documents may not open and work correctly in LibreOffice, sorry. If you don't care about compatibility LibreOffice is perfectly fine for home users.

          Users that may need to work with Office documents from work may not be that lucky, and the last thing you want is to fight against compatibility issues in both directions, especially when you have no time for it.

          1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

            Re: "Slurp's Orifice has compatibility problems between version"

            Orifice 2013 and 2018 always mess the layout of an elderly document we use every day work that is in the older .'doc' format if you save as a .docx format or any template derived from the elderly document. Given the original document is a controlled document it is not going to be updated anytime soon.

        3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: "LibreOffice only does a majority of what home users need"

          "Slurp's Orifice has compatibility problems between version so complaining about someone else's problems is a bit of a cheap shot."

          I must admit to not really using MS Office in anger much at all over recent years but is it still the case that it takes MS about a year to bring out compatibility modules for backwards compatibility? Or is the shift to O365 a one time only deal and will always be constantly updated without warning like Win10? Can O365 open Office 95/97/2003 documents without error?

          1. Jakester

            Re: "LibreOffice only does a majority of what home users need"

            Don't know how good O365 is at reading old Office 95/97/2003, but Office 2007 and 2010 really screwed up a few documents that I was able to fix with Libre Office (I tried to fix with MS Office first, but shouldn't have wasted the time I did and just gone to Libre Office).

    4. Peter2 Silver badge

      Or are more than half of the features that a given Office user uses in a business setting missing?

      The only feature missing is the ability to perfectly impersonate word/excel through whatever interface is used to programmatically create documents from an external program. (ie, business CRM systems, etc)

    5. Donn Bly

      Java

      Last time I looked LibreOffice still required Java. There is no way that I am going to allow the Java runtime and all of its security holes on my home machines - Just like I don't allow Flash and Acrobat.

      I don't know the current percentage, but I banned them when those apps combined hit 90% of all commonly-used infection vectors. I mean, think about, Java is worse than IE....

      1. Steve Foster

        Re: Java

        I'm using LO, and do not have Java on my machine. *Some* functionality in LO requires Java, but I don't install or use those bits.

      2. Jedipadawan

        Re: Java

        >"Last time I looked LibreOffice still required Java. "

        I can't find a link at this time but I recall the Java dependencies being removed some time back when LO was virtually rewritten somewhere alone the version 4 branch. Some functionality still requires a Java machine but Java is DISABLED by default in most rendering.. experience may vary if using Linux, I believe.

        Don't do Windows so can't run up LO for Windows to check on that.

        I have found a link on the current status of Java dependency in LO and it seems very little:

        https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/18322/is-there-any-plan-to-ditch-java-in-the-future-and-use-only-cc-code/

        1. wallaby

          Re: Java

          "I have found a link on the current status of Java dependency in LO and it seems very little"

          "Very little" - so it does

        2. Donn Bly

          Re: Java

          Thank you, I was unaware that the Java requirements had been refactored out. The dependencies on Java were the reason I stopped using Open Office years ago and stopped following its forks and development. Looking now it appears that it is only required by the database and related functionality such as mail merge.

      3. Jakester

        Re: Java

        Java is required for Base in Libre Office. I don't use Base in Libre Office and I don't have Java installed, but I use Word and Calc often and have no problems. There are probably some features that may require Java, but I haven't run across them. I will not use Oracle's Java willingly on any computer because of their decision to require purchase of a license in a business environment (home use licensing to follow???).

        I prefer Libre Office over Microsoft Office because when I get a call for support from Microsoft Office users where they can't open a spreadsheet or other document or formatting is wonky, I have always been able to open in Libre Office, fix the problem, and save the file so Microsoft Office will open it. Formatting isn't perfect going from Libre Office to Microsoft Office and vice-versa, but it is pretty good. I also use Libre Office in my preferred OS, Ubuntu. Because there is also a Mac version of Libre Office that is the same as the Windows version, there is more consistency in a mixed OS environment, although I personally don't use a Mac.

      4. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Re: Java

        There is no way that I am going to allow the Java runtime and all of its security holes on my home machines - Just like I don't allow Flash and Acrobat.

        You don't get "security holes" by installing the JRE just like that, you know.

      5. Donn Bly

        Re: Java

        Wow, already 11 thumbs down because I don't want to make my OS which is already riddles with security holes any worse by voluntarily installing Flash, Acrobat, and Oracle's Java runtime? I didn't realize that there were so many malware writers hanging out in these forums.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      There is no market for free software

      I'm no great fan of MS Office but for goodness sake, you get an annual license for about the cost of a tank of petrol and in the unfortunate event of having to use it at work at least you'll be good at it! Add to that the 1TB of OneDrive they throw in and I can think of better things to do with my time than root around for free alternatives. Incidentally, it took them long enough to get it right, but OneDrive is brilliant now if set up sensibly, so the terabyte is genuinely useful.

      1. Geoffrey W Silver badge

        Re: There is no market for free software

        Oh, for heavens sake! You just had this argument only last week and here you all are again. Haven't you homes to go to?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: There is no market for free software

          My apologies, it wasn't me last week but point taken. I will not even start on Linux v Windows, ever!

          1. wallaby

            Re: There is no market for free software

            "My apologies, it wasn't me last week but point taken. I will not even start on Linux v Windows, ever!"

            wish the penguinistas would take that view

    7. veti Silver badge

      Libre Office is OK, but let's not pretend you can just slot it in to an office's install image in place of MS Office and expect it to work. That will not work.

      MS has been to a lot of trouble to make Office customisable. What with styles and templates and formulas and macros, you don't even know *what* anyone else's install is capable of. And then there are a shedload of third-party tools that integrate with Office - again, you can't simply point those at Libre instead and expect anything but total chaos.

      It's just not the same thing, and you're not doing anyone favours by pretending it is.

    8. Gene Cash Silver badge

      LibreOffice - printing?

      Being able to print LibreOffice documents in Linux would be nice, instead of having to fire up Windows in VirtualBox.

      I have a Postscript printer, and still it chokes.

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2019