back to article Tax the tech giants and ISPs until the bits squeak – Corbyn

The Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition wants to tax ISPs and “technology giants” to fund the BBC and independent journalism. With Labour 10/11 to have the most seats at Britain's next General Election, his targets are obliged to take it seriously. Jeremy Corbyn used TV luvvie land's annual festival to float several proposals …

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Boo Hoo

Boo Hoo! The press keep pointing out how all my friends are terrorists, terrorist sympathisers and antisemites. Vote for me and i'll punish them by giving more to the biased and unfit for this century BBC.

Lord Buckethead would make a better Prime Minister...Heck...Even Theresa May is a better Prime Minister!

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Re: Boo Hoo

Even Theresa May is a better Prime Minister!

Are you sure? While I still remember her admirable speech to the Tory Party when she was chairman, she has been totally inept since she became PM, particularly in failing to set the government's agenda.

In any case when it comes to the current crop of muppets, comparisons are meaningless. Thought experiment with Bojo, Corbyn, Rees-Mogg™ 1775, Gove, et al. at the helm would things be any less shit?

Personally, and I'm not a Tory, I'm expecting Osborne to make a comeback, and I've been quite impressed by Ruth Davison, though I suspect her sexual preference could be a problem when people stop blaming foreigners for everything!

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Re: Boo Hoo

"Boo Hoo! The press keep pointing out how all my friends are terrorists, terrorist sympathisers and antisemites."

Slight issue with what you've raised here, it's been proven numerous times that those photographs etc weren't of what the press said they were, and the anti-semitic he shared a platform with was a Jewish holocaust survivor that compared the treatment of Palestine by Israel to that of Nazi against the Jews.

Carry on with your bullshit, but at least be factually correct with your bullshit.

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Re: Boo Hoo

During her time as Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher openly called a terrorist a "true friend", invited a terrorist into her home for tea, and personally lobbied against a terrorist's prosecution for war crimes.

Thatcher's support for Chile's former torturer-in-chief General Pinochet is no secret; it was something she was proud of. Despite her assertion that “The United States and Britain have together been the greatest alliance in defence of liberty and justice,” Thatcher refused to back down in her support of a man who overthrew a democratically elected government. This was a man who initiated the notorious Caravan of Death, the army unit that travelled the country by helicopter, murdering and torturing the General's opponents.

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Re: Wolfetone

Are we expected to ignore all the antisemitism from just the last 2 years because 1 of the events isn't exactly as described in the media? The problem is no one Jewish could trust Comrade Corbyn anymore and every week we get more antisemitism tied to him.

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Re: Boo Hoo

She also thought Mandela a terrorist (she was very pro apartheid / "white SA")

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Re: Wolfetone

"Are we expected to ignore all the antisemitism from just the last 2 years because 1 of the events isn't exactly as described in the media? The problem is no one Jewish could trust Comrade Corbyn anymore and every week we get more antisemitism tied to him."

Please, for the love of God, point out these cases of anti semitism. While you're at it, will you also present the anti-Irish attitudes every Prime Minister and MP has had, as well as their anti-black propaganda bullshit, and their islamaphobia.

Thanks.

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Re: Are we expected to ignore all the antisemitism from just the last 2 years

Surveys suggest that there is less anti-semitism in the Labour party than in the Conservative Party and in society as whole.

So yes, we are expected to ignore it, unless other similar problems in other parties are given equivalent prominence.

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Re: Wolfetone

Please, for the love of God, point out these cases of anti semitism

There's an article for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party

...That's the size of the article after it was excessively trimmed for being too full of recent events...Recent since Corbyn seized power...

You're living in denial Wolfetone

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Re: Wolfetone

I thought the general agreement here was that Wikipedia is only marginally more accurate than the Sun or Daily Mail?

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Re: Wolfetone

If you seriously have to come back at me with a Wikipedia article to validate your point then you're in denial, I'm asking for the evidence before taking a side. I'm not a Corbyn fan, I'm a fan of kids not being blown up in the name of some prick's idea that he has a God given right to land he has no right to - and then blame everyone for being anti-semitic because they call him out on it.

Furthermore, there are plenty of Jewish Labour groups who are backing Corbyn over this. But I suppose Jewish people can be either in denial or anti-semitic too.

Your move.

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Re: Wolfetone

If you're asking me for every instance of antisemitism and too lazy to look through a curated list i provided (with sources) then you're in denial and Jeremy Corbyn standing in front of you telling you he's an antisemite won't convince you.

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Re: Roj blake

"Surveys suggest that there is less anti-semitism in the Labour party than in the Conservative Party and in society as whole"

Maybe from the voters, but not from the actual party. Source: https://antisemitism.uk/new-caa-research-shows-antisemitism-amongst-officials-in-labour-is-eight-times-worse-than-any-other-party/

If you can't be arsed/don't have time to read it just read the link title...

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Re: Roj blake

Ah, here we go.

The "International Definition of Antisemitism" makes speaking out against the state of Israel an anti-semitic act. Labour won't sign up to it because of that, and quite frankly no one should sign up to it because of that.

The research is based on this rule and the use of the "Livingstone formula". That would mean right now, me saying this sentence: "The state of Israel's treatment of Palestine is abhorrent and cruel" would make me anti-semitic. That goes against the general held belief - a belief I was taught at school - that to victimise someone of the Jewish faith, to persecute them etc, is anti-semitic. Furthermore, a statement such as this by Jenny Tonge: "The pro-Israeli Lobby has got its grips on the Western World, its financial grips. I think they’ve probably got a certain grip on our party" comes under the Livingstone Formula as an identification of anti-semitism. Again, referring back to the IDA, to accuse a state of something, anything, is to be anti-semitic.

Take what you've read above and think now to Israel bombing Iranian targets in Syria. They shouldn't have, and the evidence Israel used to defend themselves was sketchy at best. To call them wrong or to say they shouldn't have done it, under the IDA, makes that an anti-semitic statement.

Ireland recently are bringing in a 'Boycott Israel' law, which boycotts goods and services produced by Israel on disputed land Israel occupy - which has been noticed by the UN. Ireland were called anti-semitic for this. The move itself, under the IDA, makes it an anti-semitic move.

You can see how utterly crazy that definition is, and furthermore using a relatively sketchy "formula" to find these types of statements as said above to label anyone anti-semitic is an absolute joke. It's abhorrent quite frankly and a massive abuse of a term that hijacks true real hate crimes against the Jewish religion.

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Re: Boo Hoo

Pinochet came into power through a coup in which the CIA had a substantial role.

The US never cared who its allies were, as long as they went along the party line and lined the pockets of US corporations.

Revolving doors between CIA, private corporations, contractors meant that they were often indistinguishable anyway.

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Re: Wolfetone

"The "International Definition of Antisemitism" makes speaking out against the state of Israel an anti-semitic act"

Erm...No it doesn't. Try reading it. Here's the exact wording since you'll argue i'm lying if i don't provide it for you: "10: Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."

Criticism is fine. Calling them Nazis or comparing them to Nazis - you know, the group that tried to exterminate them, is surprisingly very offensive to them. I know! Shocker!

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Re: Boo Hoo

the piss infused turd in my cats litter tray would make a better PM than comrade Corbyn....

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Re: Roj blake

>> The "International Definition of Antisemitism" makes speaking out against the state of Israel an anti-semitic act.

> No, no it does not.

Do you think all these antisemitic accusations are a pretext to beat-up Corbyn, just in case he actually gets into power. For instance, there's a video online of a group of people at a Corbyn press conference, where one gets up to ask a question on 'antisemitism' and the rest signal each other and stage a walk-out. Press conference sucessfully hijacked. Why would ostensablly 'labour' supporters be so desperate to sabatage their own leader?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Roj blake

I'm going to wade in with all this shite being written.

One part of the IDA being objected is

"Applying double standards by requiring of it a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation."

So I can be Antisemitic for not criticising other nations for their shitty acts or not criticising them as much as Israel.

I await someone to defend that definition as fair and proper.

I read that as "We can be shitty as long as other nations are being shitty" and we'll get you all to pass laws stopping the press from calling us out for being shitty. The Nazi one isn't just about Nazi's, it's the "A" word the Israeli government don't like and that's "Apartheid".

Down vote away but I'm right.

Edit: If you are going to attack Corbyn then do it on his policies and goals and how they won't work, this is just cheap shite by a press weaned on capitalism.

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Re: Boo Hoo

The only difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" is which side you're on at the time (usually the one that's going to make you the most money).

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Re: Boo Hoo

Mandela thought Mandela was a terrorist. That's why he was in prison after all. Mandela made no excuses for his terrorism. He thought his cause was just. YMMV.

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Re: Roj blake

"One part of the IDA being objected is

"Applying double standards by requiring of it a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation."

So I can be Antisemitic for not criticising other nations for their shitty acts or not criticising them as much as Israel."

If someone constantly criticizes Israel for its human rights violations, and ignore any other countries', then, you know, there is probably a reason for that.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Roj blake

" The "International Definition of Antisemitism" makes speaking out against the state of Israel an anti-semitic act. "

I am sure a few people will have a thought on this and I accept that my thoughts may be wrong, but the whole speaking out against the state of Israel being anti sematic and therefore a good way if not entirely in breach of racism laws.

It is my understanding that the state of Israel was created post WW2 when the displaced Jews from Germany and Europe as a whole Did not want to go back to Germany as they felt that they would not be safe long term. The Allied countries could not afford to home and support them, so an alternative solution was devised. In breach of an agreement that Colonel T E Lawrence made with Sharif Hussein that there would be no permanent presence in Arab lands, a claim was made that the land of Israel was the home of the Jewish people since Moses lead the Jews out of Egypt to Israel.

Surely there must be something that gives the Jews claim to the lands other than a book in the bible considering that there is no evidence of Jews as slaves in Egypt at the time? Surely even thinking that the Jews have no claim on the land of Israel in itself is anti sematic and therefore illegal?

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Re: Roj blake

@DavCrav

You miss the point are other countries that act shitty aren't trying to get laws passed/rules by politicians that stop you from talking about them for being shitty? No.

I'll be the first to criticise any country for human rights, case in point America and it's treatment of prisoners and the current hidden hunger strike. I think the issue here is that America isn't using perceived racism to allow it to do whatever it wants. That's what really rankles me.

Name one news corp or political organisation such as Labour that has only ever criticised Israel or even one state?

The best part is addition of "Democratic Nation" because democratic nations never act shitty at all do they?

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Re: Boo Hoo

For the many not the few.

Shouldn't this mean that he is against regressive taxes?

Like the BBC licence fee?

And increasing the cost of ISP subscriptions so that even people who never use the BBC, and don't want to fund it, still have to? Meaning that even the option of not paying a licence fee is no longer possible for anyone?

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Re: Roj blake

“this is just cheap shite by a press weaned on capitalism.”

We are all weaned on Capitalism and benefit from it hugely.

1. You can only have as much Socialism as your Capitalism can afford.

2. Capitalism isn’t, despite how some on the left speak about it, a political system or philosophy. It is a default state. For all the leftist definitions trying to make it sound like a big bad boondoggle Captialism is nothing more and nothing less than the freedom for buyers and sellers to agree a price at a market, where what is being sold can also involve financial instruments. It is what you get when you are free to do business with others. It is part and parcel of what you get when you are free full stop. Yes some activities need to be regulated, but if you want to overthrow Capitalism you want to overthrow a fundamental human freedom we all enjoy.

I don’t particularly follow Opra Winfrey, but there is something she once said that has always stuck in my mind. She said the biggest lesson she wishes she had learned at a younger age is; when someone tells you who they are, believe them!

What’s this got to do with Corbyn? Well McDonnell his right hand man has frequently called for the overthrow of capitalism. Not regulation. Overthrow. He has even said as much in a BBC interview. Properly understood, that is a call to take away our basic freedoms and replace them with centralised control. The only way to do it is to take one big step into totalitarianism. Seamus Milne is a published apologist for Stalinism and Jeremy Corbyn has cosied up with Sin Fein IMO learning how to run a political wing of a militant movement and he assiduously applies their play book (always diverting to generalities when asked about specific atrocities by those he supports “I condemn all violence” but never condemning the acts of the militias he supports while always condemning the acts of those he doesn’t).

These people are telling us who they are and too many of us are living too cosily to believe them. Many simply aren’t taking on board what they are quite openly telling us. Anyone who votes for these people is a fool. The Labour Party of Nye Bevan is no more.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Roj blake

Very good points, the problem we have though is that there is no appetite to regulate and have a proper system that is fair and that's where we get the vacuum the corbyns of the world can reside and grow. We have gone from a relatively fair system (you could get an education, good job, work hard, buy a house if you wanted) to an extremely corrupt one. (you now need two jobs just to pay your rent and if you complain all you get is "get a better job" like they actually exist for most people, it's a race to the bottom). It's a sad state of affairs.

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Re: Boo Hoo

Wow!

looking at the comments and evenly spread down/up votes I see that the people in the UK are just as divided as the the citizens of the US.

It's almost as if this was done on purpose,

(divide and conquer and all that)

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Re: Boo Hoo

So did the inhabitants of our colonies in 1789 :p

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Re: Wolfetone

>Calling them Nazis or comparing them to Nazis - ... , is surprisingly very offensive to them.

Who exactly is them?

I have known German Jews (many now dead but who decided to live in the UK) - yes those that had first hand experience of the Nazis - who quite happily compared the Zionists behind the modern state of Israel to the Nazis...

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Re: Boo Hoo

Having not been available yesterday to read the definition referenced above, I found this definition which seems to be copied by other sources. So I would say this is as near to the real definition as can be got from the internet -https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

However, and this is where the furore over Labour not adopting this definition outright comes from, is that this very definition has been used to prevent critique of Israel and it's treatment of Palestine and Palestinians. This has happened several times and has been upheld as well.

The very fact a country can hide it's actions under this definition is abhorrent and shouldn't be allowed. To be quite honest, the fact the definition applies to a country is absurd anyway.

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Re: Roj blake

@AC

"the problem we have though is that there is no appetite to regulate and have a proper system that is fair and that's where we get the vacuum the corbyns of the world can reside and grow. "

Unfortunately there will never be a fair system as there is no such definition of fair and views like Corbyn's require a denial of the real world and to think of things in a vacuum.

"We have gone from a relatively fair system (you could get an education, good job, work hard, buy a house if you wanted)"

Rose tinted glasses of a utopia that never existed. Class used to be an issue. Blackouts, interest rates in the double figures easy and a desire for the state and unions to look after the people because things were so bad. The result being things getting worse as blackouts and strikes. People leaving school before 16 because earning some money was more important.

Now we have education through to university level (uni being the point where you choose to part with money), a wealth of knowledge virtually free from all over the world via the internet. We have full employment and mostly service jobs instead of back breaking manufacturing. Modern issues are more about not hurting feelings and virtue signalling.

"to an extremely corrupt one"

Corbyn and like minds are all for socialism. A corrupt system which has damaged and destroyed every economy it has touched. A situation far worse than the one we are in.

"you now need two jobs just to pay your rent and if you complain all you get is "get a better job" like they actually exist for most people, it's a race to the bottom"

If you earn the average wage in this country you are the 1% globally! Try telling that to the latte drinking socialist who cant afford their rent as they type on their IPhone and bitch about their student debt for gender studies and they need their safe space. When people can pretend the reality they live in isnt real they are not the going to get a good job no matter what because they are not smart.

"It's a sad state of affairs."

It really isnt. And this is the problem. Yes things can be better, they can be a lot better! But they can be so so so so so much worse that people who dont realise that have been failed by the education system. We have full employment! We bounced out of the recession! We are one of the richest countries in the world and a good portion of that world just wishes it could be here. We have education, healthcare, clean water, affordable food, free time for entertainment! We have access to vast amounts of information and freely available education for anyone. Outside of extreme addition or mental health we have no actual absolute poverty!

When some deluded muppet tells you how bad things are compared to the good old days they have lost the lessons of history and have no idea what they are talking about. When someone suggests socialism as a solution you know they have no clue. In both cases it might be best to direct them to the freely available information they can look up on their phone in their favourite coffee shop to get an education.

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Re: Boo Hoo

@AC It's almost as if this was done on purpose,

Congratulations, you're a good bit of the way there. A bit more reading and observing and you'll be on to the game......

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Re: Are we expected to ignore all the antisemitism from just the last 2 years

This place is becoming worse than Twitter for spouting this nonsense.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-antisemitism-political-parties

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Re: Roj blake

"You miss the point are other countries that act shitty aren't trying to get laws passed/rules by politicians that stop you from talking about them for being shitty? No."

This isn't a law. This is 'what is a reasonable definition of someone being a Jew-hater?' And one example might well be 'talks a lot about how the country full of Jews is really terrible all of the time'.

When you have people who talk about Israel being a human rights violator, and talk often about it (for example, the Rt Hon. J. Corbyn), then that's fine. But when they give scant attention to, just off the top of my head, the human rights violations in the Philippines, Venezuela, Mexico, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Australia, the United States, Poland, Hungary and Turkey (I only chose, to varying extents, democracies, to fit in with the definition, as otherwise it's just too easy to list countries), it all seems a bit dodgy.

You never see people specifically campaign against one other country like you see against Israel. You have general human rights campaigners, like Amnesty International, who criticize Israel. They also criticize many other regimes. They are rarely called anti-Semitic because the charge wouldn't stick.

But many people focus on Israel. They criticize them, and often only them, repeatedly. Sometimes lip service is paid to other countries' problems, but the overwhelming output of their campaigning and complaining is against one country. Given Duterte's war on People Who Cross Him, where is the daily outrage? Given China's occupation of several areas, including a recent report suggesting an internment camp with one million people in it. why no BDS campaign against China?

One answer is that Israel's crimes are uniquely horrible, that they are so absolutely evil that they deserve especial opprobrium. Another is that these people just hate the Jews.

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Re: Wolfetone

">Calling them Nazis or comparing them to Nazis - ... , is surprisingly very offensive to them.

Who exactly is them?

I have known German Jews (many now dead but who decided to live in the UK) - yes those that had first hand experience of the Nazis - who quite happily compared the Zionists behind the modern state of Israel to the Nazis..."

Good for you. I suspect I can find a lot more Jews who are a bit unhappy at it. I am sure I can find black people who don't mind a different word beginning with N, but that doesn't mean it's open season.

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Re: Boo Hoo

@ tiggity - mandela still has a well documented history of sanctioning terrorist acts, despite all the revisionist tinkering.

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Re: Wolfetone

"The problem is no one Jewish could trust Comrade Corbyn anymore and every week we get more antisemitism tied to him."

You're right. Either he's not quite as clever as he thinks he is and it's backfiring on him, or it's a very well orchestrated smear campaign. I don't think I want him as a PM, but I'm not sure that he's that stupid either.

The accusations are almost all very tenuous so unless or until something definitive is reported, I think I'm leaning more towards it being a smear campaign than not for now.

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Re: Roj blake

The "International Definition of Antisemitism" makes speaking out against the state of Israel an anti-semitic act.

I can't believe you got 20 downvotes for that. It's like saying any statement made against, eg the UK is anti-Christian, which is patently ludicrous.

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Anonymous Coward

Put the money into Freedom of Information

Journalists use this constantly and it's got a huge overhead to answering some quite silly questions on local authorities, health trusts etc who have to pay permanent full time staff just to answer a question which will take up 1 sq inch of newpaper space.

BBC are one of the worst offenders for different journalists putting in similar (but not the same) questions at slightly different times resulting in a lot of additional work for the public sector.

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A digital licence fee, supplementing the existing licence fee, collected from tech giants and Internet Service Providers

This would make it a levy or a tax and not a fee. And, as it could be offset, it would effectively be revenue neutral, or a subsidy from the taxpayer to the licence payer, depending on how you view it. Better, and simpler, to extend the licence fee to cover every household with an internet connection as has been done in Germany and elsewhere. Yes, there'll be the usual gnashing of teeth that I don't watch the bloody BBC… but this applies to pretty much every charge (I don't drive a car but I still help pay for the roads…) and ignores the point that the licence fee is about the only way to ensure independence in the media.

Oh, and the next time the government gets to appoint someone to the BBC Trust, or whatever the governing body is called, make sure they choose someone who cares about journalism.

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How 'bout no

I don't pay a licence fee because i don't watch bloody TV! Why would i pay UK.GOV money for my internet connection when it doesn't use any of their infrastructure? Forget it, sunshine. You want to pay for the BBC, you carry on. Leave me out of it. And as for "independent journalism".....

a) There is no such animal

b) The BBC is definitely not independent!

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Re: How 'bout no

I don't and won't have a TV in my house, so like you I don't and won't waste time watching it, but I DO listen to BBC radio and, more selectively, to internet streamed radio, not least because I can do something else while listening.

So, I would be happy to pay for a BBC radio license if one existed.

One other thing I want to see is the likes of Drooble, Farcebook and Amazon pay their fair share of UK taxes.

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Re: How 'bout no

@ Martin Gregorie

"One other thing I want to see is the likes of Drooble, Farcebook and Amazon pay their fair share of UK taxes."

They pay the legal share of taxes. No value has ever been attributed to fair but it is considered fair to play by the rules.

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Re: How 'bout no

Amazon et al pay a fuck tonne of UK taxes & NI, just not necessarily at a corporate level.

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Re: They pay the legal share of taxes.

Correct. Amazon, Facebook and Google do indeed pay all of the tax that they are obliged to by the law. And that is why Corbyn is suggesting a change in the law.

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"I don't drive a car but I still help pay for the roads"

I do drive a car and do pay for the privilege but very little of it goes to pay for the roads or anything else road-related.

You know what would happen to the Corbyn tax. HMRC would label it hypothecated and, on the basis that they don't like hypothecated taxes, would just roll it into the general taxation pot and the intended beneficiaries would get little or nothing out of it. I would just become one more of those taxes that future chancellors would keep increasing and hoping nobody would notice.

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Re: They pay the legal share of taxes.

@ Roj Blake

"And that is why Corbyn is suggesting a change in the law."

Actually no. He is proposing a change to the law to prop up his chosen mouthpieces.

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Libertarian?

"If govt does X which might be good then Y might happen in the future which isn't good"

That seems like an argument for government never doing anything. Are you a libertarian?

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