back to article Windows 10 Insiders see double as new builds hit the deck – with promises to end Update Rage

Microsoft gave Windows Insiders a double treat last night and threw a bone to the dedicated crowd of Windows Mixed Reality users. The announcement sees build 17723 lobbed onto the branch targeting release this Autumn and build 18204 giving a first taster of the delights to come to Windows 10 next spring. Both builds (also …

Predictive Fuckups

Why not just let users choose when they want to apply updates? What the fuck is wrong with letting users control their own devices?

Predictive update management is fucking lunacy. Even if it goes wrong in only 0.000001% of cases, that's still too often for something that doesn't need to exist in the first place. They've actually spent money getting devs to create something that nobody asked for, is a pretty fucking stupid idea and serves no useful purpose except to remind the users who actually owns their device.

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

Why not just let users choose when they want to apply updates?

Because they might choose "never" because their machines are running nice and stable.

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DJV
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Re: Predictive Fuckups

I think it needs a (possibly hard to find unless you're a techie) option to return to the pre-Windows 10 way of doing things for those of us who know what we're doing.

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

"Because they might choose "never" because their machines are running nice and stable."

This.

(Having just spent several hours wrestling a time clock system back to life - on Monday when the reports are needed.)

Updates now disabled.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Predictive Fuckups

@Roger Grrenwood "Updates now disabled."

Me too, only microshite re-enabled the windows fuckup service and hit me with 3 hours of crap time whilst I was supposed to be running a profile on the SMT reflow oven!!!

I have now changed the update user to a guest account to see if that stops the bastrads.

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

Wow, there was me thinking I'd been clever by putting "sudo apt-get update" in cron!

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Unhappy

Re: Predictive Fuckups

"Why not just let users choose when they want to apply updates?"

"Because they might choose 'never' because their machines are running nice and stable."

Micro-shaft quite obviously feels [not thinks] that THEY should be in control of YOUR computer. After all, they're smarter, younger, more 'hip', etc. etc. etc. [fill in whatever possible excuse they might come up with for such *evil* *b0rg* behavior that they're engaging in by forcing updates upon us].

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Def
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Re: Predictive Fuckups

What the fuck is wrong with letting users control their own devices?

If you'd ever had to "fix" a regular user's PC you'd know why. The average user doesn't give a shit about how a computer works, or what a security hole is, or why it's important to install updates. Most of them just blindly click on anything that pops up and seem pleased with themselves when the horribly nasty popup thingy disappears - regardless of the consequences.

And then on the other hand you have IT "professionals" and some journalists who use every bug no matter how minor to gripe and complain about how Microsoft has the gall to release buggy software and then in the same breath complain about automatic updates is an invasion of their privacy and Microsoft should never be allowed to modify their machines.

Microsoft seemingly can't win no matter what they do. Don't update - and have armies of drone machines exploiting and DDOSing everything in sight. Do update - and have psychotic idiots ranting on forums. Automatic updates annoy the shit out of me sometimes, but at least I am intelligent enough to understand why they are needed for the vast majority of users out there.

Cue downvotes - as if I give a shit. ;)

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

Since Microsoft is hell-bent on being total assholes on this issue, they could still continue their assholish behavior -- but just dial it back a bit: make updates mandatory, thus satisfying their urge to be total dicks, but don't automatically reboot the machine. All users are going to reboot of their own accord sooner or later, at which point the updates will be applied. Automatic reboots are totally unnecessary.

I don't care what magic pixie dust software Microsoft claims to have -- none of it can possible know better than the user when a reboot is acceptable.

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

Your argument would be strong for why automatic updates should be enabled by default. It in no way supports the idea that you can't disable them if you wish.

My computer does not belong to Microsoft, and them acting like it does just because people might mistakenly blame them for malfunctions is no excuse for them to do that.

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N2
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Re: Predictive Fuckups

It used to be fine, you could choose from:

Turn em off

Pick what you needed

Or everything

Just what was wrong with that?

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

if spare pc laying around can turn into a wsus server and use wsus for workgroup program

https://archive.codeplex.com/?p=wsusworkgroup

sorry wrong link posted first, left in place just to show trace

https://github.com/blndev/wsusworkgroup/releases

can then approve/decline updates as needed per groups.

this would be for non domain pc's.

domain (active directory) pcs dont need to use tool, just use wsus normally.

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Flame

Re: Predictive Fuckups

"Microsoft seemingly can't win..."

They arent SUPPOSED to "win"

They are supposed to provide an operating system that enables "users" to do whatever the "users" - who to one extent or another PAID for the machine - require their machine to do.

Microsoft have adopted the attitude that for them to 'win', their customers must lose...

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

I have had to support and fix a lot (really, very very many) of end-user Windows desktops all the way back to 98 ME and the number of tickets associated with update neglect is truly minuscule.

The vast, vast, vast majority of borked boxes are borked by hardware issues (mostly disk drives), malware, viruses, browser toolbars (including those shipped with the official eff'n Java RE!), free games carrying trojans, general incompetence (You could rename the Windows dir, in Windows 3.1. Don't try it at home.) and, yes, Windows Updates gone wrong.

Actually, even just the number of Updates-Gone-Wrong, taken alone, dwarfs the number of machines borked by update neglect.

Microsoft need to employ a bit of subtlety. Paint "Updates are Available" on device-context 0 in hot-pink Comic Sans for all I care but just stop restarting my PC when it's training my models, downloading my stuffs, encoding my things, doing the jobs and processing those datas.

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

@Def

Have an upvote for accurately portraying the user-space mostly inhabited by the technically-clueless, and putting forward a cogent reason why MS should not just allow users to disable all updates permanently.

Now have a downvote for defending Microsoft's absolutely awful implementation of their update policy.

Yes I get it, there are bugs that need to be fixed and I agree that users should not be given the choice to ignore a critical bugfix. But there are also noncritical updates that should be optional. And, biggest issue of all, *it is completely unacceptable for a computer to go into maintenance mode without giving the user an idea of whether this will last 3 minutes or 3 hours*.

All it takes is one setting (all updates or critical-only) and 1 popup window (Windows needs X minutes to perform updates, proceed now, or set a convenient time to do so )

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

@Israel_hands

Start, settings, update and security, change active hours. You can specify hours when your PC cannot reboot.

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

@dmacleo

If your version of Win10 supports Hyper V, you can run that in a VM.

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

You can specify hours when your PC cannot reboot.

Not even close to good enough. I have large mathematical computations that can take _days_ to run. I need to be damn sure that it's not going to reboot at all, at any hour unless I specifically tell it to. Losing a weeks worth of work because one of the compute machines took upon itself to restart 90 hours into a 100 hour long computation is totally unacceptable.

(And before anyone says "Use Linux" I work in academia. I support academics. Some use Linux, some don't. The ones that don't need to get their computations to run just the same. I'm not going to re-write their software for them to solve a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.)

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

I have tried that w/o much luck. but honestly was prob failure on my end.

another resource is using manageengine desktop central to approve/deploy updates.

its free for 25 computers and handles windows updates as well as third party software installs/u[pdates.

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

"I agree that users should not be given the choice to ignore a critical bugfix."

I could not disagree with this more.

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

Because they might choose "never" because their machines are running nice and stable.

And that should be their prerogative. And yes, I've heard all the tiresome arguments about botnets and costs to society and such - I'm in IT security, after all. I am yet to be persuaded that they override users' right to control their own equipment.

Update nagging was bad enough. Forced updates1 are an abomination.

1By the OS vendor. When, say, my IT department forces updates on corporate equipment, that may be annoying; but it's their equipment, not mine.

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

make updates mandatory, thus satisfying their urge to be total dicks, but don't automatically reboot the machine

And while they're at it, they could fix Windows so fewer reboots are necessary. Other OSes have figured out how to unload shared libraries and kernel modules without restarting every-fucking-thing.

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

You can specify hours when your PC cannot reboot.

To some extent, and this doesn't address the fundamental issue, which is that we don't want our systems rebooted at any time without our express permission.

Why would you think there's some time window every day when I don't want to preserve the current state of my system? It's not a dumb terminal; I'm actually trying to do work on it.

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Re: Predictive Fuckups

Wouldn't that be wonderful for a change!!

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"The howls of users forced to stop what they are doing as Windows 10 takes a dive into the waters of Windows Update, sometimes for hours at a time..."

What kind of shitty old computers are these lusers using?

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Anonymous Coward

Workmates have 2017 Dell corporate laptops. And they do lose an hour out of their morning or afternoon when Windows 10 decides to update, often unexpectedly.

I have Windows 7, can hibernate the machine for a week or two if necessary and apply the update when I want, although I have to swat away the update window twice daily. That means I don't lose work.

Perhaps MS should stop making Windows act like Clippy and just get out the way and let people do work.

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Yep - fact is, most people using Windows are just doing boring old stuff, running a few apps and checking email ... most of which can be happily performed with a 7-8 year old operating system.

Note the price of old Windows 7 installation disks on Amazon is higher then a cost of new Windows 10 ...

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Anonymous Coward

@iron "What kind of shitty old computers are these lusers using?"

Ones with identcal horsepower to your brain.

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>Workmates have 2017 Dell corporate laptops. And they do lose an hour out of their morning or afternoon when Windows 10 decides to update, often unexpectedly.

If they're running a corporate version of Win10, the corporation should have taken charge of updates, that's one of the advantages of a corporate version of Windows.

Here, our corporate versions of Win10 update when instructed, and give users a 24 hour notice period, and schedule all installations to start not before 6pm (local) and not after 6am (local). I've never had one problem.

Similarly, at home, I have set my work hours, and I get notified when the machine has updates to install, I've never had the machine just announce a reboot. All the folk who have control suddenly taken off them need to RTFM .

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"And they do lose an hour out of their morning or afternoon when Windows 10 decides to update, often unexpectedly."

They do get the option to refuse the install repeatedly until a time of their choosing. Or if they don't it's because that is corporate policy.

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"often unexpectedly"

That sir, is bollocks.

There are plenty of warnings, I've deferred updates for months on end because I was too busy.

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Thumb Down

"What kind of shitty old computers"

The kind that would run JUST FINE with 7 (or earlier) on them. but NOOoooo, Micro-shaft just HAD to remove THOSE OS options from the market. Now we're stuck with Win-10-nic and all that comes with it.

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Anonymous Coward

>>What kind of shitty old computers are these lusers using?

A Microsoft Surface Pro 4, i5 7300, 256GB, feck all software, just office and AV, purchased this year.

Still takes 80+ mins for 1803.

The other problem is with all those restarts on laptops with boot passwords.

And for computers with slow connections, necessitating an offline update, the passwords lost after the feature update is installed from USB, like wifi SSID. And all the crud it re-enables from animations to windows store garbage.

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My "shitty old computer" at work is actually new, fast, and powerful. And updates can often take hours.

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I wish Windows would let me do that.

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@d3vy

That sir, is bollocks.

There are plenty of warnings, I've deferred updates for months on end because I was too busy.

That's what I'm thinking sitting here reading all this butt hurt. I'm wise to the damn thing wanting to do updates when I shut down to leave the office so I defer and defer indefinitely.

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"What kind of shitty old computers are these lusers using?"

It's not the computers, or them being old. It's whoever set them up. I have never - not once - had a windows 10 PC reboot. without asking, to do updates. I don't understand who is having this happen and how. I have 6 at home and a quick poll of the office I'm in of another half a dozen people. None of these has had it happen.

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Linux

19H1

Isn't that one of the bird flu family of viruses?

---> A bird. Possibly with flu.

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Providing a source of income for Dolphin Screenreaders

It seems that every time WIn 10 gets a big update, the screen reader needs to be upgraded...at £300-£800 per desk, this is not a trivial matter, and can be another form of exclusion as machines become unusable...yes I know about network licences, but the little people get stung the most with this nonsense.

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Re: Providing a source of income for Dolphin Screenreaders

You should seriously consider suing Microsoft for the costs. It is *your* computer but it is *their* decision to make upgrades compulsory and *their* choice of timing and *their* updates that turn your working system into a not-working system. Either they hand over the tools to block these updates or they pay for the damages. Sure, you could prevent the problem yourself by pulling out the network cable, but then it isn't the useful PC that you paid for.

It is fucking ridiculous negligent that MS apparently have the right to bork *your* computer on a six-monthly schedule, do not apparently feel the need to provide an off-switch and still get off scot free by saying "sorry, but computers, you know .. hard".

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Anonymous Coward

Windows Update 9pm on friday.

I just leave my machine running with the "hibernate after x hours" energy policy... like it's a Xbox. And I'm surprised it's been working so far.

If it has any indication of borkyness in the period, like a bsod or infinite spinning logo, I forcibly reboot and run the god damned windows update myself...

Yeah, not everybody can leave a machine running over night, sadly. I wish I could help.

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windows update

I coughed up for windows professional on all our home PCs after one of our PCs had something updated while it was being used, causing the keyboard to do something very odd.

So I've told windows to not apply updates unless asked for. And it asks nicely to reboot. Don't see why I should have to pay for this, but for £99/PC it (sadly) seems worth it.

However it's still pretty manky:

- it does not download stuff before notifying it has an update. Result. Update stops for a long while while it's downloading stuff.

- you can't choose which updates to apply (I'm happy to apply defenders update - mostly - recently it decided to quarantine some microsoft control panel, for instance, but leave the rest of the stuff till saturday)

- it appears to bugger off for a pint and a meat pie when it's updating. The progress indicators frankly suck.

- the progress meter is insane. it stops dead for a while then leaps ahead 20 percentage points

- the "I am doing something" spinner somehow magically turns into an "I am not sure what I'm doing so I'll spin this to convince you I'm doing something useful" after about 1 minute, leaving me with the impression the machine has hung.

- it can hang or fail for no reason. Or at least no reason it cares to translate into comprehensible English. And the fixes invariably seem to involve running stuff from an admin window.

None of which appear to be being addressed by the update. It's just attempting to guess better when you aren't using the machine.

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Re: windows update

"Don't see why I should have to pay for this, but ..."

You shouldn't. If Windows was completely free then you'd have no claim, but it isn't. You paid a (small) fee to have a product on your PC and apparently that product is not "fit for purpose". In the case of a PC operating system, "fit for purpose" means it is safe to leave it connected to the internet without it automatically getting fucked over by the vendor who is offering a range of licence upgrades protection schemes whereby you pay them money and they stop doing Bad Things to your computer.

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Mushroom

"Mixed Reality" eh

Meanwhile in the Real World, people fight with the monetarized control hell that is Dell firmware + Windows 10 "boot repair" mechanisms + UEFI boot magic to get a standard machine running.

It's a logless, complex, confusing crock and and people responsible should be dragged out of cubicles and hung high and short.

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Anonymous Coward

"It seems that every time WIn 10 gets a big update, the screen reader needs to be upgraded"

The built in one works just fine.

"at £300-£800 per desk"

Maybe a support contract for updates would be more cost effective if you have to use a third party application?

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Happy

Wonderful, Wonderful

....but I always rely on a recent backup being ready to 'correct' their 'many' mistakes......

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Facepalm

Whats wrong with

"Your windows PC needs updating.

please schedule a day and time within the next 7 days to download and update your PC

<open time and day manager window>

Failure to select a time and day will result in windows downloading and updating now."

Or is this far too complicated for the big brains at m$?

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Unhappy

Re: Whats wrong with

MS can't let users have ANY control. We're too stupid [in their eyes].

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Re: Whats wrong with

"

"Your windows PC needs updating.

please schedule a day and time within the next 7 days to download and update your PC

<open time and day manager window>

"

The thing that's wrong with it is that I don't want MY computer to dictate what *I* must do. Perhaps I am doing something that must not be interrupted for even a second, and that unasked-for window that just popped up has caused me to wreck £1000's of remote controlled equipment. Would you be happy if all of *your* goods had a similar policy .... e.g. your 'fridge says you must order more yoghurt within the next 2 days or it will order 4 litres from the local supermarket immediately. Your CH boiler says you need to order new loft insulation within 7 days or it will switch off all heating until you do.

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Re: Whats wrong with

Let's say I'm going away on holiday. When I come back and turn that computer on, I don't want the very first thing it does to be "notice the date and suck several gigs of shit down my wire whilst berating me for leaving the upgrade so long".

7 days is not enough. 700 days is not necessarily enough. If you feel that you really have to carry on nagging, then do so, but don't actually wrest control of *my* property from me.

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